[Closed] Corporal Punishment - Discuss

what about big children?

who would they get to deliver the punishments? a hooded anonymous man with big shoulders and no emotions?

with a sizeable chunk of the population in favour

who? I don't believe this.
it'll never happen.
they don't do it with adults, why do it to children?

I'm in favour of corporal punishment for politicians who break the rules. Preferably, served in public too.

can I use my 'all kids love getting caned these days' gag on two different threads on the same day..?

No.

Lochgelly

6 of the best.

Was a bunch of Libral ****ts that got that banned from schools in the 80's and look where we are now.

Could I have a link please?

what's the context- schools, home, parents, teachers, banning, allowing?

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/sep/16/survey-reveals-support-for-caning-pupils ]From the Guardian[/url]

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8766021/Bring-back-the-cane-to-improve-pupil-discipline-say-parents.html ]and for balance, The Telegraph[/url]

between consenting adults, cool, enjoy 8)

not to control kids though, once you have to resort to violence, you've lost whatever it was you were arguing about. I think my dad raised his voice to me ONCE, it was enough.

Was a bunch of Libral ****ts that got that banned from schools in the 80's and look where we are now.

Yes, really. You mean you think the banning of caning directly led to people being susceptible to logical fallacies?

Yes, really. You mean you think the banning of caning directly led to people being susceptible to logical fallacies?

He's probably read it in the Mail. Something starting: "Research has shown..."

Depends on the context and what you consider corporal punishment.

As a first [and then logically last] line of discipline then no.

At a point reached after other techniques have failed, then yes.

There is also a very clear line between an open handed smack on the tushie and physical abuse of a child.

Anybody who shops in an out of town superstore cannot support caning.

There is also a very clear line between an open handed smack on the tushie and physical abuse of a child

Really? Where is that line?

they don't do it with adults, why do it to children?

Really? You should tell the baton wielding gun toting Police that!

There is also a very clear line between an open handed smack on the tushie and physical abuse of a child

Really? Where is that line?

This is one problem of course. Some of the population are unable to tell.

Some of the population are unable to tell

and some kids have figured out that they are 'untouchable' and act as such - so is it best to expel them from education/society or use corporal punishment?

Really? You should tell the baton wielding gun toting Police that!

and some kids have figured out that they are 'untouchable' and act as such - so is it best to expel them from education/society or use corporal punishment?

I'm suspicious of this as just ignorant rhetoric, do you have any concrete examples?

The problems with children & youths in our society are largely attributable to the rise of the single parent family, headed by a female unable to dish out discipline (even of the non-violent variety), and the fact that we seem to actively encourage single parent families.

Look at the under-performing kids in any school class...the majority are single parents kids.

Look at children involved in crime...ditto.

Look at maladjusted children...ditto.

Now, obviously we need to support single parent families in any way we can...but we shouldn't be encouraging them or pretended that it is an entirely-acceptable way to bring up children.

there's tons of examples of kids/people acting as if they are untouchable in society.

The problems with children & youths in our society are largely attributable to the rise of the single parent family, headed by a female unable to dish out discipline (even of the non-violent variety), and the fact that we seem to actively encourage single parent families.

Look at the under-performing kids in any school class...the majority are single parents kids.

Look at children involved in crime...ditto.

Look at maladjusted children...ditto.

Now, obviously we need to support single parent families in any way we can...but we shouldn't be encouraging them or pretended that it is an entirely-acceptable way to bring up children

I do not think this is true, can you back it up?

I am convinced the problem is due to lack of community, most of which has been brought about by the car. Nobody works with their neighbours or shops from their neighbours anymore, people live huddled together on estates but do not interact with each other. It's made even worse by "choice" of where to send your kids to school. My nephew has boys the same age living either side of him and all three of them go to different state schools. Ban out of town shopping centres, ban commuting, bring back high streets and local supply, make people know each other. Then there will be awesome peer pressure on everyone to behave and look after each other.

there's tons of examples of kids/people acting as if they are untouchable in society.

Show me one then? It sounds like Daily Mail bollocks to me.

[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/04/11/blackpool-school-introduces-cooler-cells-for-unruly-kids-picture-115875-23052601/ ]Cooler cells for unruly kids[/url]

won't last long though - they must be an infringement on their human rights...

This isn't an example of kids/people acting as though they are untouchable is it?

Amazing how many on here think they know about children and discipline.

Looking at some of the comments, not sure if some of you are barely out of nappies.

Other than having 3 kids, and being a teacher in secondary and having a wife who is in teaching what do I know?

Yes get rid of the belt, but no one came up with an alternative that works.

Back in the 80's you would be unlucky to use the belt more 3 times a year.

[url= http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=395422 ]unruly kids[/url]

teachers with nothing to resort to - and the kids know it

my mother worked in a school for maladjusted girls - the type of school where the kids half-inch cutlery knives at dinner time if they got a chance, and when the girls were about to leave school a significant proportion would get pregnant so they could enroll on societies gravy train.

sister, her ex, and my cousin are all teachers

toys19 - Member
I am convinced the problem is due to lack of community, most of which has been brought about by the car. Nobody works with their neighbours or shops from their neighbours anymore, people live huddled together on estates but do not interact with each other. It's made even worse by "choice" of where to send your kids to school. My nephew has boys the same age living either side of him and all three of them go to different state schools. Ban out of town shopping centres, ban commuting, bring back high streets and local supply, make people know each other. Then there will be awesome peer pressure on everyone to behave and look after each other.

To an extent I agree, but I would have thought car use is pretty low in inner cities where these problems are rife.

car use is pretty low in inner cities where these problems are rife.

Indeed and a big part of the problem here is that decent jobs, decent schools and decent shopping is only accessible by car, so you have concentrations of unemployment, poor education and poor nutrition which leads to poor outcomes.

id of loved it if my old food tec teacher spanked me... 🙂

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/busy-parents-ask-schools-to-beat-their-children-201109164313/ ]OH yes, finally some common sense.[/url]

lowey, that is too close to the truth it isn't funny.

Really? Where is that line?

This is one problem of course. Some of the population are unable to tell.

Much easier, if you tell me 2 very similar punishments, on each side of the line. Can you do that?

What country has the lowest crime and how do they differ from us?
With the amount of stonings, beheadings and hand cutting off that go on in the world maybe these things aren't a deterrent but a cheap punishment. Got to say cane teenage idiots but no stoning of raped women.

if you tell me 2 very similar punishments, on each side of the line. Can you do that

this side - canning on the buttocks - no harm done.

that side - anything else

try that for starters.

I do not think this is true, can you back it up?

My mother worked in a school, my partner 'works with children', her father was a Policeman. I've seen proof that convinces me 100%. There is an absolute cast iron correlation between low educational standards, crime and single parent families. Does that mean there are no super intelligent law abiding educated children of single parent families? Of course not! I'm sure there are many very successful dingle parent families.

I'm fairly certain that proof is also in the public domain, but as being PC is more important that facts who knows?

I am convinced the problem is due to lack of community, most of which has been brought about by the car.

Interesting point, and your certainly spot on about lack of community, but change 'car' for 'TV' and I think you've got a point.

Why? Because 'back in day' people were out on the streets more, or socialising more outside of there family, because they didn't have the option of vegetating in front of the box. The streets were alive with people, and therefore youths couldn't roam the streets with impunity.

I'll add TV, dunno about substitute, but the TV thing is a good point, along with internerd and gaming.

Your first bit is just bollocks though, it's hearsay I'll bet you havent got any numbers. Even if you have got numbers, statistical correlation does not employ causation. It is a fact that single mums live in places that are too poor to support a local high street, in fact a high street is now a middle class luxury. The two are tied, but one does not necessarily cause the other.

16% of children from single-parent families experience a mental health problem compared with 8% from two-parent families. (Office of National Statistics)

Your first bit is just bollocks though, it's hearsay I'll bet you havent got any numbers. Even if you have got numbers...

16% of children from single-parent families experience a mental health problem compared with 8% from two-parent families. (Office of National Statistics)

 

Oh, and I'm a single dad, in a relationship with a single mum.

16% of children from single-parent families experience a mental health problem compared with 8% from two-parent families.

So you are correlating mental health with crime? I'll bet a few mental health professionals would like to disagree with you, this was suppposed to be

proof that convinces me 100%

absolute cast iron correlation between low educational standards, crime and single parent families

Come on prove it, I'm open minded about it, you claim to have seen the proof, share it with us?

Put an hand grenade between there legs and kick the little shites out the window.

Sorry I could't reply to this earlier (I'm only allowed to go on the internet during my one hour out of solitary) but I'm all for it. Never did me any harm.

Back in the 80's you would be unlucky to use the belt more 3 times a year.

Exactly! And all the kids knew that's what they'd receive if they dicked around.

What now ? Ohh, you naughty boy/girl, please don't do that again, PLEAAAASSEE....

Tell you what every and i mean EVERY kid i teach who is a problem or has "issues" come from a broken home.

Thats not to say every kid from a broken home has issues.

But there is not a teach alive who does not recognise the link between behviour and broken home (usually lack of father figure in the home).

Of course hitting children makes them respect authority and always behave themselves. At school in Glasgow in the 70s we had corporal punishment and the whole city was a safe zone full of people giving you flowers and tipping their bunnnets

the whole city was a safe zone full of people giving you flowers and tipping their bunnnets

😆

[img] [/img]
Ah, the good old days. [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/21/manchesters-original-gangsters ]Things were so much better then[/url]

Hmmmm this old chestnut

Do I agree with corporal punishment [b]Yes[/b]
Was I on the recieving end of it a few times [b]yes[/b]
Did I learn a few lessons from it [b]Yes[/b] (do not get caught)
Did I complain to my folks about it [b] no bloody way[/b] cos I would of got even worse from them.

Its not about child abusing but teaching right from wrong

As for the single parent bit well thats a bit poor, I am remarried and my wife brought up her son by herself who is now 19 and she did a bloody good job of it too.
Why because he learnt right from wrong and rarely copped a few along the way but he did know that if he crossed the line he would get a slap, is he a bad kid for it [b]no[/b]

ok so where does the problem lie well here goes

Back in the late 50's there was this child phycoligist called Dr Spock ( its the truth honestly).
He advocated that you should not chastise your kids but reason with them.
So as a child from the 60's I recieved no dicipline or value of right and wrong
by the late 70's I have a kid who recieved no dicipline or learns the value of right and wrong
in the late 90's that kid has a kid who does not know how to bring up a family
And the child of the 90's is now a teenager 4th generation of the children of Dr Spock

Scary thing is I am not quite 50 and this scenario would make me a great grand dad 😮

I am sure I will get abused for my thoughts so fire away but nicely please 😉

If any teacher used violence against one of my children they would swiftly find themselves on the recieving end of the same treatment.

as a teacher I dont feel the need or want to hit anyone. Cattle prods would be a laugh everyonce in a while but not a cane.

Its not about child abusing but teaching right from wrong

But there is not a teach alive who does not recognise the link between behviour and broken home (usually lack of father figure in the home).

SBZ

If your kid was out of control at school what would you do about it???

now there is a fine line between violence and punishment

Is a slap from a loving parent at the appropriate moment an act of love or an act of agression

Alas we live in a generation where school is considered to be a convienient form of child minding. Is it not the job of a parent to bring up kids to teach them right from wrong so teachers can be teachers with dicipline coming from the family home???

BTW there is no way in hell I would be a teacher

Junkyard, no one suggested it was that simple, but just that there is a clear link between broken homes and disruptive pupils. Its not really a point that can be debated, unless you like arguing black is white!

All im saying that there is a link between broken homes and disipline, not giving an great insight to it.

We are slowly being changed from teachers to social working child minders anyway. Im hoping that i get paid £5/hr per child i look after.

Errr Don't hit that class mate or I will hit you ?
Explain

there is a clear link between broken homes and disruptive pupils. Its not really a point that can be debated, unless you like arguing black is white

Can you back that up with evidence that seperates the broken home factor from poverty or hundreds of other factors?

For me the biggest factor is lack of father figures, for both girls and boys.

For girls they end up looking for love at an early age for boys rather than eing secure and loved by their dads. This usually ends up in the creation of girls with loose jeans.

For boys they tend to want to be the man in the house and think that this translates to being the man everywhere and when another man tells them to do something they push back and want to lock horns.

Sorry but kids really need 2 parents. Sorry if that make me sound old.

No it doesn't make you sound old.

What you state is a view not a fact and i would prefer hard facts rather than emotive polemic?
Most interesting I could find after 1 whole minute googling is
[img] [/img]
Shall we discount a father figure ?

I must be stupid i dont get your point???

the households with a step parent have a father figure yet they fare worse than single parent households[ presuming most single parent are female]
It negates your "father figure" argument as the worst group has a "father figure".

You probably want to argue for the nuclear family /parents staying together as that gives the best outcome. You have to give a reason why this works that is not related to "father figure".
I am not trying to patronise [ for once] with that explanation so sorry if i did.

To be honest i would rather go from my experience as a teacher having taught 1000's of kids rather than using google.

And not to sound pedantic but im talking about behaviour and your "statistics" show that the two groups you are talking about are the same 15%. A fair difference from the married parents. Best not get into the challenges of being a step parent.
I guess i should have said father figure in a steady stable married relationship with the mother. Maybe thats helped clarify it for you.

steven - the problem is you cannot separate the effects of poverty from single parent families.

I bet there is a far stronger correlation with poverty and poor behaviour than there is between presence and absence of a parent.

However I do also believe that a two parent family makes it easier to bring up well adjusted children

And not to sound pedantic but im talking about behaviour and your "statistics" show that the two groups you are talking about are the same 15%.

just shoot every one. Problem solved

If you feel enthusiastic about hitting children maybe you yourself need a slap?

What a ridiculous way to try and provide children with an example of how to understand right and wrong.

It's wrong.
I was corporally punished as a child. It sorted me out for a bit, I went back off the rails later on when I felt that threat had diminished but it worked for a while.

I fully accept that it doesn't work for everyone. And is wrong generally.

CharlieMungus - Member
Really? Where is that line?

Lightly smacking a child because they are mis-behaving and other discipline methods have not been effective is totally different to coming home from work in a bad mood and deciding to beat a child to relieve your frustrations.

They are both physical contact but have contrary reasonings / purposes and intentions.

What a ridiculous way to try and provide children with an example of how to understand right and wrong.

I'm not sure this was ever the reasoning behind corporal punishment. It was about bullying them (the child that steps over the line) into acting in a way conducive to allowing actual education to take place in the classroom. Very often I would imagine those that profited from the punishment were the classmates of punished child that had an improved educational experience not disturbed by the "offenders" to quite the same extent. If the child that got punished modified their behaviour and were bullied into behaving in a way that prevented them from being expelled so they actually experienced some learning that was a useful spin off but not the prime purpose. There were obviously some tossers in the profession that abused their position and punished for fun or to cover up their inadequacies but I don't believe this was the general norm or prime objective.

Don't get me wrong, as a modern day teacher and someone whose own schooling did not involve corporal punishment the thought of carrying it out now seems abhorrent but that does not mean I can't understand the logic behind it. I teach in a school now where I have to think long and hard to remember the last time I had to raise my voice. Kids want to learn, teachers want to teach. I have also worked in schools where even the very best and most experienced and "entertaining" teachers were given no chance to pass on knowledge to quite frankly feral children intent on disturbing and destroying anything put in front of them. Would "bullying" these kids into better behaviour which in years to come when they are old enough and mature enough to see it even they might admit has allowed them to access an education be all bad?

And to those that say corporal punishment is just teaching a "might has right" attitude - how much time have you spent within a school environment in recent times (i.e with adult eyes)? Years and years after corporal punishment disappeared from schools statics for child on child bullying using violence are at the same levels they always were. I'm not sure the correlation is as strong as some suggest.

Saladdodger - i'd explain to them that what they were doing was wrong and why it was wrong then make them do exercises that would produce lactate and teach them the lesson that way.

then again if you catch them trying to drink bleach a small slap is a good idea, just so they link drinking bleach with pain.

Sorry but kids really need 2 parents

I didnt have a father and seem to have done OK, educationally at least, with a degree, masters and PhD.
Need is far too strong a word and no one here has been able to show any reliable evidence for the link between behaviour and fathers. Frankly I think you are just coming out with simplistic crap as an answer to a complex problem.

PMSL where did you find your PhD a lucky dip.

In case you didnt realies this is a biking forum, not a ****ing government white paper discussion about the issues of single parent families.

Wow you didnt have a father and didnt turn out to be a tit, (well not much)
Take a bow, well done, have yourself a beer on me. Whilr you are at it take that chip of your shoulder it must be making you walk squint.

PMSL where did you find your PhD a lucky dip.
In case you didnt realies this is a biking forum, not a **** government white paper discussion about the issues of single parent families.

Wow you didnt have a father and didnt turn out to be a tit, (well not much)
Take a bow, well done, have yourself a beer on me. Whilr you are at it take that chip of your shoulder it must be making you walk squint.

This whole post just stinks of sour grapes, lets face it you posted some poor thought out crap, tried to justify it with your "experience" , have been roundly shown to be utterly misguided mainly through your weak arguments, lack of evidence, ignorance and general kneejerk daily mail attitude, when the final nail goes in your coffin you just start slinging insults. What a sad individual you are. Perhaps you could edify yourself by actually learning from your mistakes. I'd start by reading a book. Anything really but an education must start somewhere.

Yawn

Even by stw standards that is poor
FFS you are a teacher and that is how you respond
EDIT: I wrote that before the yawn
Seriously what a moron cannot understand a fairly simple chart and then you lash out like a frightened child in class who does not understand.
very poor

Double yawn with cheese on.

Is that childish enough for you.

So steve you are right based on what evidence? Your own prejudice?

To be honest i would rather go from my experience as a teacher having taught 1000's of kids rather than using google.

I too am a teacher and am certain your talking crap, but hey ho.

Wow you didnt have a father and didnt turn out to be a tit,

I didnt say that, if you could be bothered to read you will see that I just claim to have done pretty well educationally.

I am teacher as well so we win 2-1 - hopefully that maths is simple enough to grasp 😉