MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Long ramble so apologies.
After nearly four decades of civil service life I am stopping work at the end of this month. I have no real plans to work again. But..I have been working on a specific project where I have been integral to the success so far and possibly any future success.
I would like to see it through to completion but have stated I'm not going to work for nothing so my employer has agreed to me claiming "reasonable expenses".
Obviously I'm not going to return to work for a tenner a day and a sandwich so how does one work out a day rate? I don't think we have enough people doing similar to work out any base.
Currently on mid £50k p a, work will be 95% office / meetings. At the end there will be some site work. One factor with this role is it brings a lot of short term stress; there is an inherent significant risk of violent death with it. Because of this, and previous issues, if the recompense isn't reasonable I'm not going to go back to the project. I suspect when my employers get proper day rate proposal from me they'll not bother but so be it.
So any thoughts, would £1k per day be ott?
You could use the old 1% rule, so £50k salary equates to £500 (+vat) per day - but note inside/outside IR35 issues...
I reckon they'll baulk at £1k, that's top money these days (unless you're very senior and/or SME).
They could go out and employ nearly 5 of you at your previous salary for £1k a day, so I wouldn't be surprised if they politely tell you to **** right off if you go in at that rate.
I would like to see it through to completion but have stated I'm not going to work for nothing so my employer has agreed to me claiming "reasonable expenses".Obviously I'm not going to return to work for a tenner a day and a sandwich
I'm not sure why you are bothering. You don't want to work for free and they don't want to pay any more than reasonable expenses - there's an impasse there. I get you want to see it completed, but
so how does one work out a day rate? I don't think we have enough people doing similar to work out any base.Currently on mid £50k p a, work will be 95% office / meetings.
We have generally been of the view that a contractor will cost about 2-3x the salary of a person directly employed in the business (that's the actual salary cost not the cost when you add pensions, NI etc into the mix). Assuming 232 working days a year* - that would translate from £55k pa to £474-711/day. If I was the otherside of your discussion I would be questioning why a "retired" contractor being handed a contract on a plate was so expensive - part of the reason you get so much is because it is assumed you have risk / downtime between work / time spent scouting/reviewing/scoping/quoting opportunities on an unpaid basis...
As a tax payer, I would be questioning why its better value to have you retire and come back as a contractor at a more expensive rate than as an employee. If you can work out the true cost of employing you - NI, Pension, other benefits, and the true working days I think you will be more like £350/day.
If you want to benchmark it - look at what the Civil Service pay for committee chairs, expert advisors on committees etc. thats probably more analagous to what you will be doing? Ad hoc, on a schedule that suits you? rather than a pseudo-employee? Those sort of "allowances" vary hugely but are ofter £200-500 a day depending on level of responsibility.
One factor with this role is it brings a lot of short term stress; there is an inherent significant risk of violent death with it.Intriguing. I'm not sure how much money it would take for me to only kind of retire from that sort of job and probably lose some of the safeguards that go with it.
They could go out and employ nearly 5 of you at your previous salary for £1k a day, so I wouldn't be surprised if they politely tell you to **** right off if you go in at that rate.
Yes I expect so, it's a bit spiteful as a rate but I just picked the figure out of the ether. Tbh they could be struggling to find a replacement, I am somewhat of an expert in my very niche field and see also; there is an inherent significant risk of violent death, seems to put people off volunteering 😁
More detail on the role itself would be useful. Is it a Development-type role, or something like Project Management? Different roles = different market rates...
No chance youll get 1000/day unless you have a very speciaist set of skills. Assuming you work through an umbrella company, id expect closer to 500/ day, which is roughly equivalent to 95-100k perm salary, once you factor in stat costs
A large part of my role is looking at contractor rates and how they compare to our perm staff and I'm basing that on what we pay our contractors vs a perm on a similar salary to yours.
That said, no harm in starting high and negotiating down from there!
I think project & delivery lead could be appropriate.
OK, I'm a contractor in the Civil Service as a Snr PM so have some reasonable insight here.
Rates vary depending on seniority but at least where I am in the Civil Service the rate for PM/DM varies from around £500 for a mid-weight to £650 at the top end.
My very rough rule of thumb is contractor gets double the rate of permanent salaried. That would be about £500 per day. A bit less for a steady, long term role, a bit more for a short term, few days here and there. £1000 is ambitious and expensive but not miles away depending on the role
^ agreed based on now knowing the skill set. Private sector financial in my case. £550 (rate to umbrella co) is average for a PM based on the data I have.
Oh just another thought - I've paid massively over the odds for an ex-employee as a contractor to make sure there was continuity and the project they were working on got finished, he didn't do all the handover in his notice period that might have been expected and went off sick for his last week! I resented it, which meant we worked him hard, and made clear to the rest of the team we wanted to use as little of his time as possible. He could probably have agreed an advisory role at a £400/month for popping in for a few hours a month to chat ideas through, help locate problems, answer the odd phon call which would still be bumbling along 10 years later and nobody would have thought anything of it... But he asked for £1200/d, and he got 6 days work (1 day a week) before we managed to cut ties. He went in that 6 weeks from being quite close to the rest of the team to being resented by them - consider whether hearing whats going on with your old project over a coffee or a pint might be more relaxing than working with people who know you are earning more than them for the same job, especially if your ongoing presence means others don't get promotion / development opportunities.
A few other considerations - what %age FTE is this role? is it one day a week for a year or 5 days a week for 3 months? Why have you/your employer not simply negotiated extending your employment/delaying your retirement until the role finishes (perhaps part time)?
When I was contracting the day rate I charged was equivalent to 2 X the salary I would have got as a permanent full time employee
God I miss those days
One factor with this role is it brings a lot of short term stress; there is an inherent significant risk of violent death with it.
I seriously need to know more about the role. Are you assassin, deep sea diver, parachute tester, Russian political opponent?
Going on the above, I tend to agree that something in the range of £450 to £500 a day is right.
If I want to get a decorator or similar and they're charging less than £200 a day, I need to know why they're valuing themselves so low.
And if I need a bit of DIY type work done at home that I don't enjoy doing, then I cost my own time at £150 a day (because I work slow!) estimate how long it will take and if it comes close to what a professional would charge then I get one in.
How serious a risk of death is the question in my mind as well.
Assuming not high enough to discourage then as you are going back because you want to finish the project then a reasonable day rate. £400-£500.
This is on the basis that they want you back. You want to go back. As you will be doing something you want to do anyway a few extra grand tucked away ito an ISA or pension seems reasonable. Why push for a rate where they will just say no?
There are a few retirees in the organisation where I work who come back for a few shifts at day rates (doctors). The attitude seems to be that they don't need the money, they enjoy the work, and if you are doing something you enjoy because you choose to do it and not because youi have to it isn't really work anyway.
But then their biggest risk is catching a cold or a bit of covid from a patient, not violent death.
As others said, 2x salary (or 1% of salary as a day rate, they work out about the same) seems about normal for mid level engineering jobs. Although it does seem to diverge massively above that. With some roles seemingly getting the salary increase so it looks like the company is just paying a fixed premium over the staff roles. e.g. in TV production the difference between technician/assistant and the manager for that discipline (i.e. 2 steps further up the greasy pole) was as little as 10%. For others that multiple just seems to keep on going or even escalate.
there is an inherent significant risk of violent death with it
Well if that's the case they clearly don't value you that much.......
One factor with this role is it brings a lot of short term stress; there is an inherent significant risk of violent death with it.
For £50k/year you were underpaid in the first place then! 😀
How serious a risk of death is the question in my mind as well.
Assuming not high enough to discourage then as you are going back because you want to finish the project
That's an interesting question. The risk is real enough.
I am not 100% sold on going back, there is definitely some inner turmoil and this thread has been useful in that it's making me address those feelings. The more I consider it, the more just walking away appeals.
TLDR: Never volunteer for anything!
As above - salaried will resent contractors as they don't have any idea about hidden costs. We have it work at the moment - paying £37.50 ph for a good mechanical fitter. The regular workshop guys have pretty much downed tools once his hourly rate was discovered.
I think its possible to walk away in such a way that you make sure people know how to contact you if THEY want to engage your specialist expertise, as which point they will have a crisis and be willing to pay more!How serious a risk of death is the question in my mind as well.
Assuming not high enough to discourage then as you are going back because you want to finish the project
That's an interesting question. The risk is real enough.
I am not 100% sold on going back, there is definitely some inner turmoil and this thread has been useful in that it's making me address those feelings. The more I consider it, the more just walking away appeals.
TLDR: Never volunteer for anything!
No chance youll get 1000/day unless you have a very speciaist set of skills.
...and even then they'd probably go for Liam Neeson anyway...
The thing is, when paid £50k a year, there are numerous other expenses which your employer covers. Things like IT, work phone, work internet, training; plus there's the time you don't have to spend in finding your next project.
So I'd say £500/ day feels reasonable; £800 a day feels punchy, possibly open to negotiation; and £1k feels like they wouldn't even bother to negotiate. But I'm a bit confused by...
I would like to see it through to completion but have stated I'm not going to work for nothing so my employer has agreed to me claiming "reasonable expenses".
...because "reasonable expenses" could be deemed to be just your train fare into the office, for example. Either way, it [b]feels[/b] like your employer may not be willing to pay your full, formal day rate; so there'd be some sounding out to do, IMHO.
For context, I have been a contractor/ SME for 8 years now and have always struggled a bit with day rate. My billable hourly rate is $200/hr, which I think ends up being about $1200/day or so.
Check out the IR35 rules
If you're going to be doing the same role for the same company , then you're going to be seen as an employee, regardless of what a contract may say. Also, given this will be within the Civil Service they will have to follow the rules to the letter and I expect that there will be various hoops to jump through for any kind of contractor role.
i wont waste any time guess quoting potential day rates, that will be down to the skills you have and the scarcity of those after you leave.
two points tho, speak to the corporate governance team, if you have a friendly finance person they should guide you - there may be non disclosure agreement elements and/or restrictions to your coming directly back to the same area, within a given timeframe as a contractor - these can be waived, but always better to know up front as well as what level of approval would be required.
second, while a day rate (excludes actual receiptable expenses which would be over and above) can exceed £1000 and very regularly does, there are cabinet office rules which become very restrictive if the contract period is expected to be a year or more.
I think its possible to walk away in such a way that you make sure people know how to contact you if THEY want to engage your specialist expertise, as which point they will have a crisis and be willing to pay more!
Then it's set an hourly rate with a 3 to 5 hour minimum for work done. (I have been spending a lot of time reading about such things on Reddit). You only want to be called if it's a "proper" emergency!
At my previous employer, out-of-contract work would net a customer a junior engineer for £250/day, a senior one for £500/day. The ones costing £1000/day were the ones we had to fly out to Europe to sit their exams.
Only you know your own worth, but at £1k/day either you have a unique set of skills or you don't particularly want to do the job but will do it for a silly offer.
Walk away and enjoy retirement.
Take your skills and look for a training/planning/analysis role, I have no doubt that there will be opportunities without the risk
Without knowing your expertise it's difficult but you'll find opportunities on the Civil Service Jobs site with other organisations, e.g. with The College of Policing and on local police websites
Thanks all, lots of interesting thoughts I hadn't even considered. My gut feeling is that this is falling into the too much aggregation / very little upside for me bin and I think I'll probably leave it in there tbh.
So I'd say £500/ day feels reasonable; £800 a day feels punchy, possibly open to negotiation; and £1k feels like they wouldn't even bother to negotiate. But I'm a bit confused by...
Hi
Desk jockey here... Contractors doing our line of work (software, engineering mind not just bashing code together) in our industry (aerospace) are looking at ~£650 day rate as standard. Some variation either way but not a lot. They're not project leads, or managers, they're the rank/file engineers (leads & managers would be looking for closer to £1k). Most reckon they're getting the equivalent of a decent permanent position in terms of take home, so there's that. Also, we have zero risk to life being sat in front of a monitor, or occasional lab work debugging on sub 30V electric kit.
If you're looking for retirement pocket money and don't really need to do the work, price accordingly and coin it in if you get a bite, would be my take.
>Contractors doing our line of work (software, engineering mind not just bashing code together) in our industry (aerospace) are looking at ~£650 day rate as standard.
id' say the same for web developers/engineers. Typical day rate for a decent senior frontend/fullstack is around 5 - 600. Fintech or security cleared can be 700 - 800
Suggest they use Ai 🙂
And ride your bike instead :-)))
We're currently using the services of a retried MD from a competitor company for some consultancy work. I suspect his salary was around £75k 2 years ago and he's charging us £50 PH plus vat.
3 x daily cost of a permanent employee + however much you need to pay for a T6 campervan you freeloading tax dodging @*÷*×*# (according to recent threads, anyway).
£850 a day and if you are happy to walk away if you don’t get it , then the advantage is with you.
You’ll soon find out how much they need you 😀
work will be 95% office / meetings
and
there is an inherent significant risk of violent death with it
Either those paper cuts are bad or death by powerpoint is a real thing now...
Or the other 5% is proper mental....
work will be 95% office / meetings
and
there is an inherent significant risk of violent death with it
Either those paper cuts are bad or death by powerpoint is a real thing now...
Or the other 5% is proper mental....
Yeah, C'mon. What's the line of work you do that has the inherent death risk? We. Need. To. Know.
You lost me at "I'd like to see it through to completion". On the day I retire I will happily drop whatever I'm working on and walk out the door...
Anyway, as an ex-contractor at that kinda level, £500-£700 seems like the right kinda ballpark.
While on the subject of freelance/subcontractor day rates.....and to spin it the other way....
Assuming a full time employee does 225 days a year, how many days a year (inc admin days doing booking/invoicing/tax self assessment etc you don't have to do as a paye) would you be prepared to do to be exactly the same off working as a freelancer? And by that I mean taking into account national insurance, pension you'd get PAYE plus some sort of death in service equivalence, and maybe a sort of self insurance margin for the equivalence of sick pay.
It's not something I've done, but might consider in the future (in a change of career so not a like for like) - feels like number of pros and cons. A bit (lot) of lack of security but also not having all eggs in one basket and not being concerned with company politics.
An update.
I said £600'ish, my former employers have just come back with £290 maximum, so I've suggested they stick it. A bold negotiating tactic!
Duplicate post.
I'd have done the same. I was a contractor for 27 years and often encountered people who had been hired on low rates and were unable to deliver resulting in the client having far more contractors than really needed. A few were the opposite but only a few
I've read the thread and I'm more confused than before I read it .
"inherent significant risk of violent death"
That suggests there's also the risk of lifelong impairment injury, and you'd spend the next 20 or so years of your life regretting your decision to take that risk for so little money.
Quite simply they cannot pay you enough for that.
An update.
I said £600'ish, my former employers have just come back with £290 maximum, so I've suggested they stick it. A bold negotiating tactic!
Make a counter offer of £350 per day.
If they don't get the joke and immediately hire you, then it was never meant to be.
£290 a day wouldn't get them a bricklayer or plasterer!
Stick to your guns and retain your dignity.