The majority of Tory voters will not respond to this thread.
They know that their choices hurt the most vulnerable people in our society, but crucially, do not care.
I couldn't vote Tory.
I've voted Labour (and have twice been a member, not at the moment though), Lib Dem and Green.
None of my real friends are Tories.
I prefer not to socialise or interact with people who prioritise greed and self interest at the expense of the real and genuine suffering of others.
To me, those on the right exemplify the basest traits of human nature - willful ignorance, lack of empathy, contempt for those less fortunate than themselves and a desire to prioritise their own petty self interest over the good of society.
Vote Green.
Some of their policies do come dangerously close to woo (that said so do other parties with support for homeopathy etc).
Tories and Labour lurched too far right and left,
Can you give some examples of these overly left wing policies?
Rusty - get off the fence and say what you really mean!
😀
🙂
Sorry, I'll try and be less wishy washy in future.
I don't believe that left always good, so further left is inevitably better.
A balanced left wing democracy would be my preference.
Authoritarian in some things, libertarian in others.
Last two general elections I’ve voted for a local independent candidate. She’s more than halved the incumbent Tory MP’s* majority. Next time she might actually beat him.
*Hugo Swire fyi. Total waste of space!
Ditto but Labour next time.
I think Wright is funded by the tories and too fond of her freebies.
I vote for people, not parties.
My politics, are a mix of Labour, Lib Dem and Green, more Green than Yellow and Red, but I'm also not a fan of the pseudo science and rubbish that they sometimes spout.
I live in Tory heartland, Maggie lived a few miles up the road. You could put a blue rosette on a pig and it'd get voted in, as such Labour, the Lib Dems, and the Greens don't really even try. (I was a GP member and helped with our 2015 Campaign, we struggled to even find a candidate, and the one we did was inexperienced and awful).
I'm a town councillor, Independent, unaffiliated, and that reflects my current politics. I'm politically homeless.
If there was a general election tomorrow, I'm not sure who I'd vote for, having voted Green, Lib Dem and Labour previously.
Nick Boles (IND, was Con, crossed the floor) is my MP, and to be honest, although I've never voted for him, he's actually a very effective MP. I can see why people would vote for him. One Nation Conservatism as practiced by Nick, Ken Clarke etc, is actually fairly reasonable in the way it operates, but they don't quite have the balance of people over economy right for my vote. That said, as mentioned, Labour haven't put a viable candidate up in living memory, the usual Liberal Democrat PPC is a friend of mine, he's a nice guy but I'd not want him representing me in Parliament, he's also a town councillor I've served with, but he's not effective at debate, he struggles, he won't do what needs to be done in my view. Green.. well, we tried that when I was a member of the party, but he was a bit wet. I'm not a member anymore so I don't know who they'd put forward.
Come May, we're having District and Parish/Town elections, I've been told the ward I'm standing in is un-contested, I'm duly elected now as a result, apparently only a single Town Ward has been contested, which shows that people just don't want to get involved in local government or the area they live in at a grass roots level anymore. I got involved because I wanted to have an impact on the community I live in, I'm not really one for dogmatic tribal politics; I've been a member of a couple of parties in my lifetime, but really I don't have political ambition, I just want to see things get done.
In terms of District elections, two Councillors in my ward, are also Town Councillors, who I've worked along side and have a massive respect for. They're both standing under a conservative manifesto. For the first time in my life, I'm very likely to vote Tory in those elections.
As I said, I vote for the person, not the politics.
None of my real friends are Tories.
I prefer not to socialise or interact with people who prioritise greed and self interest at the expense of the real and genuine suffering of others.To me, those on the right exemplify the basest traits of human nature – willful ignorance, lack of empathy, contempt for those less fortunate than themselves and a desire to prioritise their own petty self interest over the good of society.
I am in 100% agreement and feel the same.
Historically I've pretty much always voted Labour, Lib Dem or Greens, but I did once vote Tory in the 2015 GE
My MP is Mark Lancaster (he voted against everything in the most recent round of indicative votes) who got back in during 2017 albeit with a greatly reduced majority (I voted for the Labour candidate to try and get rid of the Tories)
With the political events of the last few years one thing is for certain - I'll never ever be voting Tory ever again - I can't forgive them for what they've done to the country
I agree 100% with Rusty Spanner. Mind you, I'm struggling with labour at the moment. I think that Corbyn and his team are to the most part, just as South-East-Centric as the Tories and absolutely clueless as to the needs and views of the traditional Labour voters (many of which voted UKIP). As to the anti-Semitic tendencies and the snuggling up to any left wing terrorist organisations they can find .......
I think that Corbyn and his team are to the most part, just as South-East-Centric as the Tories and absolutely clueless as to the needs and views of the traditional Labour voters (many of which voted UKIP)
Well this is an unusual complaint. It's way more common to hear that Corbyn's paying too much heed to the Kipper tendency in traditional Labour strongholds and abandoning the middle class remainer Labour vote.
Last year I voted Green and locally will do so again.
I'd never vote Tory again, and have a hard time justifying labour.
Btw, today it's reported that Mays team closed down a Motorway services for her privelige. That's exactly the kind of Tory elitism they believe they deserve and every reason right there is never vote for them in current times .
It's just my opinion, garnered from watching them in action. I may be wrong. I just know that in the two areas I have lived, East Lancs and now Cumbria Corbyn and his chums will just be viewed as left wing intellectuals who are more interested in dogma and political correctness than anything else.
Not quite in line with the original question but I have a real concern about the kind of MPs we will be getting.
At the next election, the newly elected first-time MPs will probably include those who go on to become cabinet ministers in 10 years or so. And I would like these ministers to be some of the brightest and most capable people, who can stand up to the challenges thrust upon our country and make good decisions in the face of malign influences from all quarters, including the CIA, KGB (or whatever it's called now), China and the tabloid press.
So, if you were one of these types, which party should you stand for? It seems to me that in order to get selected as a Labour Parliamentary candidate you have to be a trade union official these days. Gawd knows what you have to do to get the nod in the Tories. And is it worth joining any other party if you have these ambitions? Never mind your ideology.
I have no political allegiance to any party. They are all a shower of ****** in one way or another. I have voted tory, labour, libdem, UKIP, green (not the looney party, only because I didn't get he option). The party that gets my vote depends on the big issue of the time, or to stop the worst of a bad bunch getting in, or as a protest vote. Its all a con anyway, governments are dictated to by corporations and banks. That's where the decisions are made, there is no will for change, they are making plenty thank you very much. Until we can control our own banking system so it works for the people not just the banks, there will always be massive inequality.
Then in the background we have the right/left argument. Divide and conquer, split the population and let them fight among themselves. While the establishment continue as they are
Both Party's are closed shops. The Tory's are just recruited from the usual Eton > Oxbridge > right-wing thinktank > Westminster. If you tick all those boxes then you're in, in most cases without having any notable ability. But this is about to get worse. Once May's gone we'll have some hard right headbanger in and every MP who isn't a rabid pro-Brexit zealot won't have a sniff at even the most junior cabinet position
And that's exactly where the labour party is anyway. All non-believers have been banished to the back benches, to be replaced by Corbyns nodding dogs, again regardless of any notable ability
In better news, from today the TIGgers are now officially a political party who those of us who find both main parties equally as unattractive (well... maybe not equally?) can actually vote for instead
We've got local Parish elections coming up in May. Had a Conservative leaflet through the door this morning, when I noticed what it was I just went out and threw it in the recycling. It was one of my neighbours who was posting the leaflets. He didn't look too amused that I'd thrown it out seconds after he'd delivered it 😂
A valid question and I’m sure many do, however there’s a sense of solidarity and altruism among a good deal of Labour supporters that does mark it out in contrast to the Tories.
So “the majority” may be an assumption, but “enlightened self interest” has been a fundamental concept in Western philosophy since Kant and is widely considered to be a valid ethical stance.
Do you really think that there is a majority of Labour voters who are altruistic? I'm sure that there are some but I would have thought that were you to ask "who should pay for these policies?" the answer would be "the rich" where that is a code for "someone who isn't me". The flip side of the self interest would be the invisible hand as described by Adam Smith which I'm sure many on the right would point to as an indication of how self interest will lead to the best outcome.
There is no real moral high ground when it comes to politics and no one set of policies is inherently superior. All ideas have their good and bad points no matter if they come from the left or the right.
gonefishin +1
Ideas of left and right are utter bunkum, the idea that you can pigeon hole all of your views into a nice package is mental, the world if more complex.
We need to move away from the party system and just deal with things on a issue by issue basis.
On that what you are doing is giving individual MPs the right to votes as they please without things like the whip system. This would allow MPs to freely group together on and issue by issue basis without being incumbered by the tribalism of the 2 party state.
Our politics need to become much more fluid, and much more about trying to find a compromise that suits everyone, rather than majority rules, we win, f you.
If we give our politicians this kinda freedom, I'd think it needs to be liked with politicians being more accountable to their constituents, and making them vote more with them in mind.
Not a completed idea, just sticking it in here to add to the discussion. So feel free to chip in.
Do you really think that there is a majority of Labour voters who are altruistic?
I think there are many more altruistic Labour voters than Tory voters, yes.
You don't get many Tory nurses or teachers from the poorer public sector schools.
I’m sure that there are some but I would have thought that were you to ask “who should pay for these policies?” the answer would be “the rich” where that is a code for “someone who isn’t me”.
I disagree.
The way to measure the worth of a society is how it treats it's most vulnerable members.
We all contribute to that.
I earn very little. I'd be happy to contribute a bit more to help those less fortunate.
All ideas have their good and bad points no matter if they come from the left or the right.
I agree, but some ideas are self evidently and quantifiably just wrong. Penalising the disabled, the deliberate destruction of working communities, removing workers rights, objecting to pay equality, blaming and punishing the victims of selfish policy decisions etc.
These things happen far more often under Tory governments than they do under Labour ones.
I think there are many more altruistic Labour voters than Tory voters, yes.
You don’t get many Tory nurses or teachers from the poorer public sector schools.
That's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Have you ever considered a career in politics? 😉
🙂
Without asking them all, it's an impossible question to answer.
As I'm sure you knew when you posted it!
If someone can explain the compassion and empathy inherent in right wing free market ideology I'm happy to listen.
Not heard a valid explanation yet, but I'm all 👂's. 🙂
kelvin
Subscriber
You are quite correct. He was Straight Left though, yes? And Murray? Both Straight Left & CPB?
He was a journalist and manager at Straight Left, yes; he's never been a member of any of CBP or its many spinoffs and inbred cousins.
Murray works a day and a half per week for Labour on secondment from Unite. I understand why you're portraying him as the power behind the throne but it doesn't seem to have any truth in it, no more than Milne having been a member of the communist party that joined Labour in 2016 rather than being a lifelong Labour member that's never been a member of the communist party.
Do you really think that there is a majority of Labour voters who are altruistic?
You phrase that as if I said there was. I honestly don't know and haven't claimed to.
Be careful with the moral relativism though, it can only take you so far before everyone starts to think you're just a dick.
51 used to be the age when voters switched to Tory. I’m not so naive as to think there are no decent Conservative MPs. If I lived in a constituency with one, I’d consider voting for them. But no chance with Adam Afrerie.
Right of centre Blairite policies are my preference. Without winning that middle ground, labour will remain out of power. Those were the words of Alistair Campbell. And he’s not wrong.
I won’t vote for Old Labour on principle.
Without winning that middle ground, labour will remain out of power. Those were the words of Alistair Campbell. And he’s not wrong.
This would seem to be the intuitve answer, but we have to concede that nobody really knows anything about politics anymore. Even Campbell.
It's evident that so much of the country just wants another Blair, but without the warmongering. Labour are arguably playing a risky game in not offering that.
Right of centre Blairite policies are my preference. Without winning that middle ground, labour will remain out of power. Those were the words of Alistair Campbell. And he’s not wrong.
New Labour did a lot to assuage my doubts about them as a party, but they were a bunch of champagne socialists in the end who took us into an illegal war.
I've always felt that Labour can't be trusted - they might claim to have the interest of the disadvantaged at heart, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the evidence.
I have the same lack of trust about the Tories these days - hopefully Brexit will screw them as a political party for the foreseeable.
FWIW, I vote on personality of MP these days - who do I trust to represent my views as closely as possible and more often than not, Vince has been my man.
PS: What chakaping said whilst I was writing.
And now they’ve really jumped the shark.
What? They've started bikeglamping.
It's not so much about would Labour voters be prepared to pay more tax, it's more about the corporations that pay sfa like Amazon, Google, Facebook and Margaret Hodge's family firm making their contribution and firms like Virgin and Boots not being given free rein to rip off the NHS.
I’ve always felt that Labour can’t be trusted – they might claim to have the interest of the disadvantaged at heart, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen the evidence.
Pick a town in the north that had been decimated by Fatcha and go for a walk around it. You'll see schools and hospitals and all those kind of important things, all built under Blair and Brown. Would they have been built under 13 years of the Tories? Of course they wouldn't! The Tories would have just started their austerity agenda of dismantling the social fabric 13 years earlier.
These things aren't specifically there for 'the disadvantaged', they're there for everyone. We all benefit through this infrastructure investment as a society. Well... all of us who can't afford private education and healthcare, anyway
Would the labour party, Blairite or otherwise, bring in policies like the bedroom tax? The shambolic misery of universal credit? Or a system which actively persecutes the disabled? I very much doubt it
I'm a member of the Labour Party and my other half claims to be non political. Except that I know she is a bit of a closet Tory. Why? Because despite the fact she is more likely to agree with a more left wing policy agenda, she feels the Tories are more competent.
Without asking them all, it’s an impossible question to answer.
As I’m sure you knew when you posted it!
I don't accept that it's an impossible question to answer as it was worded in order to gauge what someone's opinion might be. I wasn't looking for any sort of absolute answer. My point it that people generally vote in their own self interest. Whether that is on the right as they feel that they will be richer as a result or for the left as they feel that there should be more a redistribution of wealth so that they are better off.
It’s not so much about would Labour voters be prepared to pay more tax, it’s more about the corporations that pay sfa like Amazon, Google, Facebook
or in other words "someone else". Were these companies to pay more in taxes then yes there would be more money going into the government coffers but we had better all be prepared for our pension pots to be worth a lot less as a consequence.
Pick a town in the north that had been decimated by Fatcha and go for a walk around it. You’ll see schools and hospitals and all those kind of important things, all built under Blair and Brown.
I was back in my home town not that long ago and I saw precious little evidence of schools and hospitals from the Blair/Brown era.
all built under Blair and Brown.
Under an incredibly expensive PPP contract?
It's a lot more nuanced than you portray - to hear you speak you'd assume the Tory party had never built a school.
I can't understand why the Lib Dems aren't more popular. OK, there was the blip with the coalition, but generally, they seem slightly left of Blair/Brown to me and they've had some genuinely likeable leaders.
Virtually the first thing the Tories did when they got in was to close down all the Sure Start centres that the labour government had built. To me, that pretty much summed up the difference in priority between the two parties
The Tory party believes the public sector comprise of a couple of rooms full of people doling out contracts (and billions of quid) to Virgin, Capita and G4S
To me, that pretty much summed up the difference in priority between the two parties
Yes - and just as it was starting to show the benefits too.
People* don't vote Tory because they want to stick it to the poor and amass as much wealth as they can for themselves.
Similarly people* don't vote Labour because they want all the major industries to be run so that the workers can pillage them while doing FA or so that the ****less can slob around smoking crack on benefits.
The fact that these might be the consequences is one reason why people vote for the other option, but mainly people vote Tory because they believe in financial prudence, self-reliance etc. and people vote labour because they believe that as social animals we work better together blah blah. In other words people are generally voting for good, even noble reasons, much of the time.
Americans pay less tax but then the wealthy fund universities, orchestras and theatres. We pay more tax and fund those things through those taxes. Two ways to achieve similar ends.
* Rees-Mogg and Derek Hatton excepted.
To me, those on the right exemplify the basest traits of human nature – willful ignorance, lack of empathy, contempt for those less fortunate than themselves and a desire to prioritise their own petty self interest over the good of society.
This. With all the talk over the last few years revolving around Brexit and being called traitors, and enemies etc, there is only one internal enemy this country has had and that is the tory party.
This party must be destroyed.
Not a completed idea, just sticking it in here to add to the discussion
The question is how would you get it to work? Most early democratic systems started off with that idea (including UK and US) but they all evolve into the party systems. The only true non-partisan systems (by true I am excluding those which ban party politics due to being authoritarian states) are very small countries.
So whilst I like it in theory I really dont think it works in practice. There seems to be a fundamental flaw in it which drives towards a party system. I think part of it would be the difficulty in making sure you know what each person stands for.
There is also the problem of how to get it to work with anything other than FPTP.
Those were the words of Alistair Campbell. And he’s not wrong.
The problem is new labour didnt win the centre ground by good politics. They won it by abandoning their normal constituents and just hoping they wouldnt notice and allowed the hard right to drag the "centre" so far right that even mildly left wing policies are now seen as hard left.
There was a reason Blair left when he did. He wouldnt have won again.
A large amount of the disillusionment with politics which is plaguing us today is down to Blair and his "third way".
Yes, I believe a lack of joined up thinking (or at least lack of thinking beyond the current parliament) is the root cause of a lot of this countries ills at the moment.
Both major parties are guilty of it - they get in power for a couple of terms, think they are going to be there forever then go all Nero on us in the third term.
The country has had enough and kicks em out.
If we could actually have a bit more consensus around decisions we might not have this 10 (ish) year cycle of one lot reversing everything the other lot did.
The fact that these might be the consequences is one reason why people vote for the other option, but mainly people vote Tory because they believe in financial prudence, self-reliance etc.
I love the self-reliance. Without the state we'd all be for the chop at some point in our lives.
I'm not having a go at you - but financial prudence - it's a complete red herring in the context of Conservative fiscal policy.
Governments don't balance books, least of all the Tories - they occasionally admit to this but it sure is a good stick to bash your enemy with. Hence the success of the Tories after Gordon Brown - who was never that bad at all. But the papers did a great job on him.
Tories are simply driven by market ideology - some are level headed about this but I think some are genuinely bitter and twisted about too. And they're running out of steam with this notion. I really hope Bernie Sanders makes an impression in the States too.
(Good thread BTW - nice to move away from the hell-camp that is Brexit - with other considered views.)
This party must be destroyed.
Sorry but that is mad.
Its as bad as saying Labour should be destroyed.
Any system needs multiple political viewpoints to avoid group think and a dangerous focus on one cause of action or another. As Nico says people arent voting for the tories since they think the poor can be ignored but because they believe the theory that its self reliance and prudence etc (whether those claims by the tories are true are a completely different story) and that by encouraging those you get the best outcome as opposed to the nanny state/communism or whatever.
Don't have time to read the whole thread but in answer to the OP:
Do you have concerns with your vote based on social conscience, the NHS, poverty etc?
Ye-es. In particular, Theresa May's (may be a whole arm of the Tory party's) obsession with inserting government legislation into family life under the guise of "we know better, so we're going to protect you from yourselves"; and its casual disregard for basic human rights. Most obviously this is under various internet snooping bills/ regulation of the individual's internet activities; and latterly in repeatedly trying to opt out of the ECHR and illegally removing the citizenship of a British citizen, among others.
However, the NHS is an utter sh*tshow, and it is far from clear that more funding will improve it. There's an entire stratum of middle management that needs to be removed, but the organisation has a no redundancy policy, so won't do it.
More pressingly, Labour in its current iteration can't be trusted with anything as serious as power. Corbyn is an unreconstructed hard-leftie; his support for Maduro isn't of itself a problem, but it lends weight to the party's complete absence of understanding of how government works in a capitalist society. One cannot simply renationalise entire swathes of the economy without some magical moneybox. And the ongoing anti-Semitism scandal* demonstrates that as people, the Labour party are no less objectionable than the Tories in their sense of entitlement and casual treatment of people as less than people.
*-fwiw, disliking Israel's actions isn't anti-Semitism IMHO, but anti-Semitic epithets clearly are.
I am in 100% agreement and feel the same.
#metoo
I have voted Labour, Green and LibDem in the past. Fairly committed LibDem voter now as they are the only viable alternative to Tories here.
I can’t understand why the Lib Dems aren’t more popular. OK, there was the blip with the coalition, but generally, they seem slightly left of Blair/Brown to me and they’ve had some genuinely likeable leaders.
1. People voting as they always have done.
2. See it as a wasted vote on account of the trifling number of seats obtained compared to number of votes.
Now if they would come out as "The Remain Party" and hoover up 50% of the vote!!
Anyway my constituency is Con/Libdem. Currently Con but come the next election I think it will swing back. Mind you there may be no more elections, we may slide to full on totalitarianism before.