That was 1974 and a Tory government – seems like you don’t remember it either
Nah, winter of discontent was 78 - 79 under a labour government.
3 day week started jan 1974 under conservatives
[according to wiki – just in case drac’s “looking things up online” embargo is still in 👍]
Your Google skills are slipping.
Current Labour policies are not that radical. Don't believe the hype.
Whether Corbyn has fluffed his big chance by losing too much support over his stance on Brexit is another matter.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week
3 day week: (from 1st Jan 74. I remember the power cuts) Tories. Took us into the EU and everything got better...
winter of discontent was 78/79 yed. But the 3-day week was Tory incompetence. I was there.
What's very interesting is the numbe of people who just assume that the industrial problems were only apparent under Labour.
Why is that?
Tory propaganda from the 1980s chiefly, I'd suggest.
winter of discontent was 78/79 yed. But the 3-day week was Tory incompetence. I was there.
Oh aye seems a bit mixed up, talking about 2 different events. 😳
I'm not a tory voter but have lived in a ward for 30 years that would vote for the proverbial donkey with a blue rosette on it - despairing at the choice of local election candidates. I remember the 3-day week and power-cuts in the 1970s as well as the miner's strike in the 1980s as I was doing an industrial relations module as part of my degree at the same time - it prompted much debate. Our politics is suffering due to the 2-party systems and the failure to seek compromise - we have successive Governments that fail to plan and make meaningful investment become the terms of parliament - investment in infrastructure, social housing and care is suffering in comparison to our European peers.
Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.
That is the myth. Check out government spending of the last 40 years or so. Tories have spent a considerable amount more and have hardly ever run surpluses. IIRC Labour have had at least three. Tories I think perhaps one.
Not that I'm advocating that as balancing the books is a load of bollocks too. If the public sector runs a defecit then the private sector should mop up the slack in resources. But MMT is the next level of discussion.
Never understand why this isn't more widely known.
With the first question I would say Conservatives generally think the 'market' takes care of things best. It clearly doesn't - as start by defining 'best' and it will only serve a few the best.
While we're on the subject I would go one further and ask the average Church-going Tory how they reconcile Christian values with neo-liberal ideology?
Because the two are in no way compatible.
handybar wrote:
Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.
Yet the national debt has almost doubled unded the Tory government, up from 1 trillion in 2009/10 to 1.8 trillion - and this despite Tory Austerity?
Your Google skills are slipping.
I got told off for using google so I used wiki instead
Saved me from getting confused over two different things 👍
Awwww! Or we still crying over that? Poor Neal.
Yeah, If you like.
I just thought it was a bit sad for a moderator to be so desperate to score points that’s all.
Didn’t add anything to the discussion, just had a pointless dig at someone posting something that was actually relevant to the discussion.
But hey, you carry on, whatever floats yer boat 👍
Ok. It's genuinely been interesting.
Some opinions and views I find alien, some I hadn't truly explored in my mind if I'm honest and some I very much agree with.
kelvin
Subscriber
Corbyn’s inner circle (Milne, Murray and co) left the communist party to join Labour and his team in 2016 (after the EU referendum went the way they wanted). Do you trust them not to implement “extreme left” policies once they are the power behind the throne of a “Labour” government?
Seumas Milne has never been a member of the communist party, and joined the Labour Party in 1979 (according to the Times). HTH.
Not really answered my question…
What's in the manifesto has never proven to be the complete business of an elected government. Ever.
joined the Labour Party in 1979
You are quite correct. He was Straight Left though, yes? And Murray? Both Straight Left & CPB?
Anyway, I voted Labour at the last election… but claiming that key people running that party now are not "hard left" is laughable. Both main parties are being dragged to more extreme positions… for me it's more of a worry where the Conservative party is going… but there's plenty of worry left for the party that would seek to replace them as the main party of government.
Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little on other people but plenty on themselves.
Didn't Osborne buy a horse paddock on expenses? How austere of him
Showed their hand long ago and what they are all about. Always seem to be riots when they're in power!
Wonder what became of the women who was trampled by riot police horses in the poll tax riots. You know one of the "hooligans" "thugs" "criminals" "pond life" photo's of participants named and shamed all over the tabloids, yet she seems to have been erased from history.
handybar wrote:
Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.
rone wrote:
That is the myth. Check out government spending of the last 40 years or so. Tories have spent a considerable amount more and have hardly ever run surpluses. IIRC Labour have had at least three. Tories I think perhaps one.
nbt wrote:
Yet the national debt has almost doubled unded the Tory government, up from 1 trillion in 2009/10 to 1.8 trillion – and this despite Tory Austerity?
Simplifying a bit:
Handybar is only semantically wrong, Labour overstretches itself resulting with the Conservatives having to pick up the tab.
Simplifying a bit:
Handybar is only semantically wrong, Labour overstretches itself resulting with the Conservatives having to pick up the tab.
Some data actually shows that over the 70 years or so up to 2014 or thereabouts Labour borrows less than the Conservatives and Labour has always repaid debt more often than the Conservatives, and has always repaid more debt, on average.
I don't think we've ever had a genuinely conservative government in fiscal terms. Classic conservative, yes. Social conservatives. Even neo-conservative (you could argue Tony Blair was closer to being neo conservative than anything else)
So the justification for voting Tory, so far, is because they are not Labour / Corbyn / Blair / Winter of Discontent?
We just need British Leyland, Scargill / Miners, and Michael Foot for a full house bingo.
Yep the 1970s were terrible with the lowest level of inequality in the post war period and people on average incomes could buy houses even in London. Outrageous!
So the justification for voting Tory
Not seen anything solid yet other than a few who admit they are voting Tory selfishly as it is best for them. I would guess that is why most people vote tory and explains why on average people sway to tory vote when they hit their 40's and are more stable, have more money etc,.
Interesting to see the results of the last 50 years of tory biased media in this thread and how that helps to get the votes of people who are not even better off themselves with a tory government let alone the even less privileged.
It's scary how many seemingly smart people revert to cliché when talking politics.
^^ good point kerley! I live in a Tory constituency and know people who are struggling and renting but have only ever voted tory. You hear 'I couldn't vote for Corbyn' so you ask which policies they don't like and then they look a bit bemused, go quiet and then the whataboutery starts. Neo-liberalism has screwed this country and a bit of Keynesianism would be good for business too. At the last election Corbyn's manifesto was costed (unlike the tory's) and received support from 150 international economists. Anyway, what did that loathsome BJ say about business?
Interesting to see the results of the last 50 years of tory biased media in this thread and how that helps to get the votes of people who are not even better off themselves with a tory government let alone the even less privileged.
Exactly this - as Nye Bevan pointed out, the genius of the Tories is to convince people to vote for them even though it is actually against their own interests.
https://www.azquotes.com/quote/604343
I used to be a Conservative voter for the reasons earlier in this thread, but even before Brexit it was too much for me to swallow. And now they've really jumped the shark. I'm not alone I suspect.
The rise of the banks changed everything. The tories would have happily let them grow as did New Labour, indeed the tories release the big bang and subsequent deregulation. But the rise of the banks was a global phenomenon and no country could really escape it - basically a form of American soft power.
I'm still surprised how little anger is directed at the banking sector. Much of it has instead been deflected to other things and contributed to things like brexit, trump, etc yet the bankers still pocket their bonuses.
I think 1997 was the first year I could officially vote. I didn't because I was 18 & couldn't have cared less about politics.
The Lib Dems probably align with my personal views most these days. I would be more likely to vote for Tory over Labour though. Blair, Brown & Corbyn have been a succession of weapons grade d*ckheads.
The reality is, I just don't care enough about politics though, and nor do I want to.
Not seen anything solid yet other than a few who admit they are voting Tory selfishly as it is best for them. I would guess that is why most people vote tory and explains why on average people sway to tory vote when they hit their 40’s and are more stable, have more money etc,.
You obviously didn't read my post then?
' a succession of weapons grade d*ckheads.'
That's the kind of analysis, comparison and critique that guides some people's voting intentions.
What @jakester said. Tories and Labour lurched too far right and left, so will vote Lib Dem again and hope and pray that lots of other people do too!
Not seen anything solid yet other than a few who admit they are voting Tory selfishly as it is best for them.
You know this is an argument and criticism directed at Tory voters that I have heard many times over the years however does it not equally apply to the majority of Labour voters? How many of them vote for Labour "…selfishly as it is best for them"?
People say that politics is tribal, and to a certainpoint it is. But I think with a lot of people its down to their own personal experiences, particularly when you're at an age when you're forming your poiltical opinions
For my part that was being 15-16 during the miners strike. My journey to school took me past Parkside Colliary which had just been closed down. I saw, every day, bus-loads of riot police all from the south east, on premium overtime. I then saw the kids, some of them good mates, on free schoool meals and living in genuine poverty.
Then I saw a Tory party that didn't give a shit, with a leader who openly called this mess 'a price worth paying'
I'm not naive enough not to realise that our economy needed rebalancing and modernising, but it was the way it was done. It was calllous and uncaring, and for a lot of Tory MPs it was an act of revenge and vandalism, and they seemed like they were actively enjoying it! The following years in places like this, all over the north, Wales etc were pretty bloody grim. Mass unemployment in de-industrialised areas was no fun to live in the middle of. Have you ever seen how fast heroin use takes hold in an area devoid of hope? I knew plenty of people who succumbed to that
And I think the present crop of Tory's are even worse than that lot. They're totally devoid of empathy or compassion, and are totally self-serving. They still couldn't give a toss about anyone outside their own wealthy South Eastern enclaves and the oddities/outposts like bits of Yorkshire and Cheshire
So my vote has always been, and always will be 'anyone but them!'
And if thats regarded as tribal, well I can live with that
If you're basing your political tastes on the policies of 20, 30 even 40 years ago you might as well stand with your fingers in your ears screaming "I WAS BORN A TORY/LABOUR VOTER AND WILL CHANGE MY OPINIONS TO THAT OF MY CHOSEN PARTY RATHER THAN CHANGE MY PARTY OR EXPECT MY PARTY TO CHANGE FOR ME".
If you won't vote for a Party you both trust and are aligned with your views because they aren't 'viable' you have an overly simplistic view of politics and an obsession with winning, this isn't X-Factor. If you vote for a minor party, or the 'wrong' party for the safe seat you live in, you vote still counts, in fact in some ways it's more important than getting your chosen colour rosette in Westminster. Believe it or not, the major parties want to be elected they spend a huge amount of time pawing over voter data to get an idea of what people are thinking nationally and will amend policies based on it.
does it not equally apply to the majority of Labour voters?
A valid question and I'm sure many do, however there's a sense of solidarity and altruism among a good deal of Labour supporters that does mark it out in contrast to the Tories.
So "the majority" may be an assumption, but "enlightened self interest" has been a fundamental concept in Western philosophy since Kant and is widely considered to be a valid ethical stance.
If you’re basing your political tastes on the policies of 20, 30 even 40 years ago you might as well stand with your fingers in your ears screaming “I WAS BORN A TORY/LABOUR VOTER AND WILL CHANGE MY OPINIONS TO THAT OF MY CHOSEN PARTY RATHER THAN CHANGE MY PARTY OR EXPECT MY PARTY TO CHANGE FOR ME”.
30 years ago I looked at the Tory party and saw a rich, entitled, self-serving minority, devoid of any obvious humanity, empathy or compassion and an arrogant 'born to rule' attitude
I look at the present Tory party and I see exactly the same. As Theresa is fond of saying 'nothing has changed'
People complain of Tories moving too far right and Labour too far left but I'd rather it that way than being indistinguishable. There does seem a massive opportunity for a centrist party at the mo- but all the main players are vacuous offering more of the same.
If I was a floating voter I wouldnt be able to see past their handling of disabled benefits- shameful.
*brexit has ballsed up conversations like this. Referendum was a bad idea as Ed Millinsnd, and Tony before him said.
Wonder what became of the woman who was trampled by riot police...?
Short version - 'took a big knock to help take down Thatcher', got lucky considering - ie suffered cut to the head, broken clavicle. Died 2007 (unrelated)
Anecdotal account by her partner and eyewitness at the time/events via the link.
Given that, for my tastes, Labour is too authoritarian and right wing (this could change, but hasn't in terms of official policy despite Corbyn), I'd be unlikely to vote Tory.
I could however justify it with trickle down economics etc. if I chose to (though again, in reality I believe this is firmly a load of bollocks and there seems to be evidence against it, e.g. rising food bank use etc.).
Last two general elections I've voted for a local independent candidate. She's more than halved the incumbent Tory MP's* majority. Next time she might actually beat him.
*Hugo Swire fyi. Total waste of space!
How many of them vote for Labour “…selfishly as it is best for them”?
Puts hand up. If Labour get in I will pay more tax, I'm pretty sure of that. So to an extent my vote would be selfish (it's another story, but I won't be voting for a non-Remain Labour). However, in the broader sense I think higher taxes will lead to a better society, so I would also be voting selfishly by voting Labour.
Tories = more for [u]me[/u] now, less for others later.
Vote Green.
“I WAS BORN A TORY/LABOUR VOTER AND WILL CHANGE MY OPINIONS TO THAT OF MY CHOSEN PARTY RATHER THAN CHANGE MY PARTY OR EXPECT MY PARTY TO CHANGE FOR ME”.
Unfortunately, this summed my mam up for years until she voted Lib Dem at the last one. Her dad was a working class tory (read: racist) so she was. ****ing useless.