Like a few others, we used to fly regularly, in our case for ski trips. Over lockdown we took the decision that we won't fly again unless there's a very good reason, and "we want to go there on holiday" is not a good reason, so it doesn't look like we'll ever ski again in North America. Mostly we'll holiday in the UK, there's plenty to go at still, then drive to France for a 2 week ski trip (or longer) rather than multiple one week trips
I did talk to the CEO of my employer about our ESG strategy (ESG = Environment, Sustainability and Governance, the current buzzword for proving how green your business is and thus critical in attracting investors). It looks like when i asked what our strategy was, he assumed i was an expert and would tell him how to appear green without actually making any changes. I think he was hoping to get away with just sponsoring some "carbon offsetting" greenwashing schemes, whereas i actually came up with suggestions that would involve make changes in working practices and company outlay like encouraging people to work from home (since my meeting they changed the corporate line from "you can come to the office if you want" to "we want you in the office two days a week") and offering interest free loans to buy season tickets for public transport or to buy e-bikes for commuting, and perhaps reducing free parking at work (and providing more cycle friendly facilities like secure storage, showers, lockers etc)
Strangely, he ghosted me after that, never got round to arranging the follow up meeting. Almost as though he didn't really want to do anything...
I hate the airports and usually feel pretty guilty about the CO2, but the alternative is to accept that I basically won't be visiting Europe again until I'm retired, which (first world problem) is just a bit too much to accept, I've only just scratched the surface of European road cycling and say what you like about British riding, it's just not the same.
It's like any other addiction I guess, you have to really really want to stop ☹️
I did talk to the CEO of my employer about our ESG strategy
I was flown half the length of Britain and drove about 4hrs total in order to assess the feasibility of swapping gas boilers to air source heat pumps in a small office building, as it made better 'business sense' that my office did it than to let another office take the work.
Funnily enough my final report on the CO2 emissions saved by going to heat pumps didn't include the C02 emitted in the process of producing the report. I have a horrible feeling there would have been no nett reduction 😖
18 flights so far this year with another 6 booked before Christmas, pre Covid it was about 100 per year for the last 7 years, all for work, non-work about 4 in the 10 years.
My office is in the back Garden, but I teach technicians from all over Europe, Middle East and Asia, my training center is in Italy as it’s not practical to do it in at my house.
Doesn’t even factor into my decision making
Not a huge flier (probably average once a year) but even if i was I’m more Than happy that my carbon footprint on this world is tiny compared to others
No kids, barely drive etc means I fly guilt free
Absolutely not. Haven't flown for vacation for years and managed to stop work stuff by insisting on virtual meetings. It can't be done for everything but once you start reducing you find that others want to too but just didn't want to stick their heads up.
Not convinced about carbon offsetting either, seems to easy to scam. If we **** up the planet there is no going 'oh I didn't realise it was serious'. We already know that
I think five or six trips this year, only one work and at least two work trips booked for early next year (delivery of specialist training that can only be done face to face).
Can’t say I’m planning to change my ways unless I stop working.
As above “ No kids, barely drive etc means I fly guilt free”
One flight a year doesn't give you a "tiny" carbon footprint. It may not be a huge one if your flight is short and your life is otherwise frugal. But it's not "tiny", regardless of whether a small minority are considerably worse...
Like many I fly for work, though much less long haul than I used to.
Personally I avoid flying, don't like it and can't justify the fuel.
For skiing we take the Eurostar ski train and for biking drive via Newcastle Amsterdam ferry for two weeks.
Bring on the Rosyth ferry!
I have accepted that I will probably not travel beyond the continent of Europe on holiday again. Bit of a shame, but plenty in Scotland/Europe.
Only flown once since before Covid and that was to Paris (train was more expensive and took a lot longer).
But no, in the grand scheme of things my CO2 output due to flying doesn't worry me very much and I will continue to fly once a year for pleasure.
I am however quite aware of our carbon footprint at home even though it's an uphill battle with the rest of the family. Our current car is a 1 litre Fiat 500 and the one on order (if it ever turns up) is a 1.6 self charging hybrid. I also now work from home 3 days a week which reduces my travel by 180 miles a week.
At some point we will go fully electric and install solar.
I've only ever flown once or twice a year, mostly Europe, 3 times across the Atlantic. The co2 does bother me, but realistically giving up on those flights won't make a difference - which I also know isn't the right attitude, but realistic. I don't plan to fly more often, less so if anything, and I will always consider alternatives (I don't think driving to Europe is any better on a per person basis).
Probably better environmentally is having reduced personal meat consumption considerably over the years. Rarely eat red meat, Vege lunches where possible, 3 or 4 Vege dinners a week, low meat content where we do have it.
Fly every couple of weeks for work, though try and do train for uk stuff if feasible.
Got a couple of holidays boked next year, short haul. Not flown for 3 years. I cycle to work, and rarely drive to ride, prefer to ride from home.
Theoretically, how many mature trees would you have to own to off-set say 1hr of flight time ?
It's not really that simple. You could, of course, spend the £30 on carbon offsetting and also NOT take the flight, if you really cared.
Plane emissions for a full plane are something like 90kg per hour per passenger.
It’s not the “climate change” element of flying that’s cut down the number of flights I do, it’s just that I find the whole process of “airports” so bloody un-pleasant.
Me too. Plus being stuck in a claustrophobic tube for hours. I find with holidays the juice isn't worth the squeeze unless you're going for a long time.
Been away to Europe 4 times this year. Flown twice (both with long transfers at the far end), train once, driven once.
Even with the transfers, flying was by far the cheapest option - especially solo (although airport parking costs made it more of a close run thing than I was expecting). Hating the airport experience at the moment.
Train was (mostly) pretty civilised once in Europe. It worked well for us as we can get straight to St Pancras from home then walk across the platform onto the Eurostar. The worst part of the journey is the UK trains. (other than the sleeping under the seats on the overnight TGV bit - but that's choice). It was then 20 minutes in a car to the final destination
Driving was pretty brutal and not cheap. If we could have taken bikes (bagged up) on the Eurostar we'd have done that. The euro end of things was not too bad, just long (again overnight), but as ever the 4+ hours driving in the UK to get to/from Folkestone was abysmal.
Time wise, there's very little in it. Flying and train took around 12hrs door-door, driving was more like 16hrs
Guilt? Not really. I accept there's an impact of everything I do. I'm good in some areas; woeful in others. I'm another of the "haven't spawned another generation of polluters" gang, so feel that give me a little more leeway with what I do.
Longhaul? Unlikely. I won't go to America currently for political reasons. I'd love to go back to Canada to ride and to ski, but suspect I've missed the boat on doing that vaguely cost efficiently. Plenty more to explore in Europe.
I'm not going to stop travelling just to be environmentally friendly (although happy to adapt the mode). The reason I bother getting up every day and going to work is to be able to afford to spend time in the mountains. I live on the edge of the Peaks, which is pretty damn good and keeps the "outside hit" topped up, but its not the same thing at all as proper big mountains in summer or winter. As and when I can no longer do that, either through health, or because it's been banned/made unaffordable, well - that'll be the end of me. The world won't mourn another selfish bastard...
I was more thinking how much woodland I would have to buy (and protect) to ease my conscious.
I'm not going to stop flying for leisure/personal travel anytime soon.
I've travelled a fair bit for work and am likely to need to go to Australia and Canada in the next 12 -18 months so it seems pointless not flying for a holiday?
For context my boss recently flew business class from London to India just to go to a ship naming ceremony...
I had to wrestle with my conscious over a work trip to London (to visit a Passivhaus building) back in May. I ended up going but wasn’t particularly happy about the flying (pretty 2 full days travel by train from Inverness).
I’d not flown since 2012 (Geneva), passport ran out in 2015. I have made the decision to (try and) never fly again if it can be avoided.
Like others on here it’s not really been that difficult for me personally (I hate the process of flying, airports, security, all the hanging about and anxiety of journey to the airport, etc.).
I’ve had two intercontinental trips (Colorado), <10 european/Scandinavian return trips and a couple UK for ‘pleasure’ in my 50+ years. A couple of euro trips for work, ~5 years of 12-14 trips to/from Shetland from ABZ and maybe ~6 return trips to London/etc. for training, etc. So personal travel must be below (western) average or standards. I worked in department sporting Sustainability in the title where most people had at least one IC and 2 euro trips a year… (they’d bring back a local Starbucks mug to commemorate the fact…)
Decision been pretty organic (rather than long standing conviction), I’d ‘planned’ (pre-Trump) on a Tour Divide and putting that particular dream to rest sealed it I guess.
I have a family wedding in upstate NY next year. My hatred of travel, coupled with I’m not really a person you’d want at your wedding (I’m really not suited for these type events) means it’s highly unlikely I’ll go (although I will guilty about ‘letting down’ my niece).
We were given 10 years to get shit sorted out about 4 years ago and we’ve not really done anything worth a shit so far. Climate has changed (and for the worse) looks like we’ll miss the cutoff for 1.5-2 degree rise.
Await the ‘why did nobody warn us’ wailing when its all too late.
It won’t really affect me much, I’ll be dead and gone before the real shit hits the fan.
I’d just like to think I wasn’t one that didn’t try, even if it was only a little.
I'm probably going to do a PPL and buy a plane in the next couple of years so will be flying.
However, I've only been on about 10 commercial flights in 40 years and only 2 have been for holidays the rest were work.
I’m not going to stop flying for leisure/personal travel anytime soon.
I’ve travelled a fair bit for work and am likely to need to go to Australia and Canada in the next 12 -18 months so it seems pointless not flying for a holiday?
That's a bit like saying "I recognise meat production has a greater environmental impact than a plant based diet but because I partake of a bacon roll at the Friday work get together I might as well just eat meat 3 times a day for the rest of the week too".
First step to reducing impact is to identify the difference between needs and wants. As a society with a rather high degree of self entitlement it's something most of us struggle with.
I fly a lot for work, roughly 4000 km a month. Thinking about the principles of mass-transit and the drive to get more people out of cars and onto trains/buses, if split between ~200 people per flight then how does flying compare to my old job driving around in a van doing maybe 1500 km a month?
Flying is roughly* as bad as driving a single-occupant car. The differentiator is the scale it allows, 300 people wouldn't independently think driving 1600miles for 24h to Malaga is a good idea, but they will do it in 3 on a plane.
*within the margins of arguing about aviation being worse due to the high altitude, long Vs short haul, Prius Vs Focus, etc.
I was more thinking how much woodland I would have to buy (and protect) to ease my conscious.
Nope. Just nope. The "offsetting" thing is 90% bollocks and 10% scam. If you're burning fossil fuels, you are adding to atmospheric CO2.
By all means plant trees for the environment, there are lots of reasons why this is often a good idea (in the right location), but don't pretend that it somehow makes up for burning fossil fuels. It doesn't.
Haven't flown since 2016 here. I am planning a big holiday at some point in say, the next five years (Canada or Japan) but I'll go for a month or more and that will be my only flights for a decade.
Internal flights in the Uk should be banned. We're a small Island, it shouldn't be necessary. Other more developed nations (Europe) are offering either heavily subsidised, or even free rail journeys to ease the energy crisis but also nudge towards more environmentally friendly transport. Meanwhile in this country it's increasingly difficult to even conduct a reliable train journey on a route like the West Coast mainline. The fact that its cheaper to fly the distance instead is just bonkers - it would be better if all flights had a tax levied that more realistically reflects their environmental impact, making them an exclusive last option instead of the norm.
I haven’t flown since 2018 but will be flying to Iceland next year. Not sure about the following year. Mrs T more keen than I am to go abroad.
From what I can tell, the people who climate change will affect the most don’t seem to give a hoot.
Several of the younger ones I work with are always off flying here there and everywhere, several times a year, even for weekend breaks. No real thought on any carbon footprint they are leaving.
Devil's advocate - there are places around the world that depend on tourism to sustain their population and help them become more prosperous. If nobody flies these people will see a massive downturn in their way of life, and many have already suffered during the pandemic. Are you happy not to help their recovery.
Furthermore, not travelling leads to a lack of direct experience of other cultures and an increased risk of divisive "them and us" attitudes.
Yes. Not been on a plane since 2008 and got rid of my last car in 2012 for exactly this reason.
I’ve committed be flight free
Not just for a year though, permanently.
I’d like to see flying and going on cruises becoming as antisocial as littering or flinging a bagged dog turd into a tree.
You can do it, you’re just being too selfish not to
@jonm81 - would love to know how you get on with the PPL - I've had it in the back of my mind as something to do for years! Would be a right bonus for visiting customers who are hundreds of miles away!!
My house is now off grid (despite still having to pay an annual connection fee to the grid) bar water supply and my energy comes from solar panels and two wind turbines. I've had an electric cars since 2015 (but we won't talk about the byproducts of manufacturing the batteries hey!). This is charged by my Powerwall setup. I don't really buy much and cycle as much as i can so i'm not bothered about going skiing a couple of times a year or going abroad for work or holiday. The plane will be leaving anyway regardless as to whether i'm on it or not.
Internal flights in the Uk should be banned. We’re a small Island, it shouldn’t be necessary. Other more developed nations (Europe) are offering either heavily subsidised, or even free rail journeys to ease the energy crisis but also nudge towards more environmentally friendly transport. Meanwhile in this country it’s increasingly difficult to even conduct a reliable train journey on a route like the West Coast mainline. The fact that its cheaper to fly the distance instead is just bonkers – it would be better if all flights had a tax levied that more realistically reflects their environmental impact, making them an exclusive last option instead of the norm.
There's some evidence that the cheap Lumo trains between London and Edinburgh have taken on a fair chunk of people who would otherwise fly between the two cities.
Elsewhere, you're right, trains are desperately unreliable and slow. We really need HS2 from London all the way up to both Edinburgh and Glasgow... High speed rail is a generally eco-friendly and viable alternative to flying.
I was looking at travel back from the north of Scotland a while ago and while internal flights were quite expensive and trains were expensive and slow, it was actually cheaper to fly Scotland to Spain and then get a transfer back to England. Insane.
Airlines know where the cheap / loss-leader fares need to be and then jack the prices on internal (which is predominantly business) travel.
@crazy-legs - there has been zero investment in the railways or any infrastructure and it's now starting to bite. I wanted to get back up to Manchester from Surrey to see the folks, not only was it absurdly expensive Arriva or whatever are they called have reduced the service....needless to say i just drove in the end. HS2 is needed and all railway routes need to be upgraded to make the service a viable option, but yet again the UK is all about quick fixes and nothing really gets any better. Go to Spain or Switzerland and they have some of the best trains in the world and the prices are really fair.....not £330 for a return first class ticket from Euston to Mcr Piccadilly.
One flight a year doesn’t give you a “tiny” carbon footprint. It may not be a huge one if your flight is short and your life is otherwise frugal. But it’s not “tiny”, regardless of whether a small minority are considerably worse…
Meh
It’s not a small minority who are worse. My holiday will generate about 500kg of co2 all in. By not having 2 kids (average family size) I’m saving about 20 tons of emissions a year. Sure it’s 500kg ‘extra’ I’m generating, but I simply don’t care. The same people who preach about the climate crisis screw this planet over far worse than me.
If nobody flies these people will see a massive downturn in their way of life, and many have already suffered during the pandemic. Are you happy not to help their recovery.
That is pure whataboutery. They are nothing like as ****ed as they will be if the whole planet dies. Yes, you are correct in that it isn't ideal but it is clear we can no longer continue with the way things are.
Flying is shit I hate it. Not climate related for me(shame) it’s all the faff. Been abroad once in 12 years for my daughters wedding. If I go to my grave never flying again(highly likely) I’ll be happy !
but I simply don’t care
About sums up climate change.
If nobody flies these people will see a massive downturn in their way of life, and many have already suffered during the pandemic. Are you happy not to help their recovery.
I was all for the collapse of the air trade during covid - I had a buisness pre covid that relied on airports, that buisness is no more, lost a fair few thousand. But I'm happier for it.
I haven't flown for about 6 or 7 years I think, and I'd be reluctant to do it now. Climate stuff is part of the reason, but another part is that I don't find it a particularly nice way to travel. I certainly don't see myself doing a long-haul flight again. I reckon there are more than enough nice places to go that I can get to without flying.
I don't know though if I'm at the point yet where I'd refuse if I needed to go somewhere where flying was the only reasonably practical way to get there.
monkeyboyjc
Full Member
but I simply don’t careAbout sums up climate change.
No
By not having 2 kids (average family size) I’m saving about 20 tons of emissions a year.
About sums up climate change
Interesting thread. Personally, no I don't struggle to justify it. I don't have kids, I barely drive, don't eat much meat, I live in a small terrace full of second-hand furniture and I average one short haul flight every 2 years.
A mate took his family of 5 to America - that's over a decade's worth of me & MrsDoris's flights. Another mate is a musician who flew to LA last month for a single night (not unusual for him). I'm constantly hearing my neighbour's sodding hot tub. STW is a very high-consumption culture: N+1, trips to Morzine, second cars for the wife and 'what £200 jacket for walking the dog?'.
This is also a huge part of the problem:
I’ve a mate who flies to various sites across Europe, often taking a flight everyday of the week.
This is were the majority of air miles are I suspect and it’s not what people think of people just going for meetings that they could do remotely. The number of specialist service engineers, fitters, installers heading off all over the place is massive. I am not sure how you fix this as specialists are by their nature not everywhere and this is doubly true when it comes to company specific equipment.
A business could have local specialists if they wanted, but it's time and money.
So it doesn't make sense to blame specialists themselves, who are doing what they're told. But the fact that businesses are happy to send people on 50+ flights a year to save money (bet it's often more expensive long term anyway; I've seen some ****ing absurd budgeting decisions) is a pretty ridiculous indication of our approach to climate change as a capitalist society.
And I'd take issue with this:
From what I can tell, the people who climate change will affect the most don’t seem to give a hoot.
Several of the younger ones I work with are always off flying here there and everywhere,
Young westerners are not the people who will be affected the most. They're mostly in the third world, and will probably never take any flights at all.
So yeah. I'm a bit nihilistic about it. I've got friends who take more flights each year than I've ever taken in my life, who drive more miles each year than I've ever driven in my life, yak yak yak. I could trim my own lifestyle down that little bit further, but really, what's the ****ing point?
So yeah. I’m a bit nihilistic about it. I’ve got friends who take more flights each year than I’ve ever taken in my life, who drive more miles each year than I’ve ever driven in my life, yak yak yak. I could trim my own lifestyle down that little bit further, but what’s the **** point?
There's part of me that thinks the same - my own aunt more or less lives on cruise ships, she does about 6 a year and they're notoriously shit for the environment, far worse than flying.
A lot of people have the attitude that the plane is flying anyway (and the [url= https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/28/revealed-5000-completely-empty-ghost-flights-in-uk-since-2019-data-shows ]ghost flights to maintain landing slots[/url] are well publicised) so there's no real difference if a person chooses to fly or not... It's not a clear cut issues by any means.
Someone mentioned carbon offset earlier. Isn't that a bit if a nonsense - not specifically for flying but generally
When thinking about flying and carbon footprint you have contextualise by the fact the the large majority of people don't fly each year.
Doesn't sound right? Think globally, the majority of people don't live in affluent countries and simply do not have the money to fly and more generally have a carbon footprint that is a fraction of Europeans or North Americans.
I'm not sure this context helps either way with our individual decision making. But if global wealth increases then flying will become a greater and greater contribution to global CO2 so will need to be restricted if any measure of controlling climate change is to be achieved
Wonder how many of the no I dont fly team, I take the ferry or holiday in the UK do so in a 'lifestyle' van, especially ones that are more than 5 years old. Seems to be a growing trend in the UK and not great for your carbon footprint.
People who drive SUVs (which are often basically standard cars with taller bodies) get a lot of flak when people driving round in old campers and transit convertions or T4s seem to be ignored.
