[Closed] Clever logo... (well I thought so anyway)

Red Bull. What is it? Nothing, really. It's a superfluous product, and an expensive one at that. I wouldn't touch it. Yet it sells by the absolute bucket load.

red bull is a brand, not a product 😉

What I do actually helps. A local or regional charity struggling to get taken seriously can come to me, and I can make them look like the serious, effective organisation they are. And it's amazing how local politicians and local media start paying attention once a charity has dropped its comic sans and started looking like the real thing. It's a benefit I frequently see, first hand.

Great post jackthedog.

Now i drink red bull sometimes.

But why did you first pick it up? How did you know it was a caffeine based drink? What drew your eye to it?

nedrapier - Member

Wow, an interesting post! It only took 16 pages!

Thanks Jack, and well done, for the post and your decisions.

Indeed.

It seems we are probably quite similar in that respect Jeremy. Where we differ is that I can accept I'm in a minority. And I also accept that, even though I know it inside and out, occasionally still, despite how much it pains me to say, I might get suckered in by branding.

All I have claimed is that there are a significant number of people who think like me I have not claimed they are a majority. You think as I do. However quite a few folk on this thread have tried to tell me that I cannot possibly think and act as I do. as Graham does in the post below yours

Graham - you still miss the point

This has absolutely nothing to do with rejecting branding (but probably quite a lot to do with being a tight-fisted luddite).

M6TTF

red bull is a brand, not a product

this is the bit you seem unable to do - separate the onject from its branding

However quite a few folk on this thread have tried to tell me that I cannot possibly think and act as I do.

This is not true, we all accept that you think and act the way you say you do. What we are struggling with is convincing you that much of this is governed by marketing. The fact that you actively and with great effort avoid certain products, because of their marketing is a case in point. You actions are a result of the marketing, even if they are avoidance.

It is also a product - can you not see this -there is an object with inherent attributes there. Its a high dose of caffine in a convenient form

We can see that, I'm asking how you came to know that Red Bull might be such a drink, differentiating it from lemon squash. And why amongst the other available caffeine drinks on that day, you picked up Red Bull, tried it and decided you like it?

No charlie - you are still telling me that I cannot act and think as I do.

Waht I do IS NOT governed by marketing, I do not

actively and with great effort avoid certain products, because of their marketing

I do not do what you keep claiming I do.

Charlie - you need to understand the concept of the object as being separate from the brand. I buyu red bull because of [i]what it is[/i] not because [u]of what it is marketed as[/u].

Your now astonishingly immovable belligerence, and repeated use of the same phrases suggested you ran out of steam a while ago, but have gone too far to ever admit, even to yourself, that you might be wrong. There is therefore no point continuing this debate.

Its supposed to be "and on that basis, I'm oot"

@Jamie - what and where is that weird place??

It's Powerstation IM in Belgium.

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=45380

A Hi-Res pic to break your browser:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/brokencapslock/5896975215/sizes/o/in/set-72157627105844096/

actively and with great effort avoid certain products, because of their marketing
and have not said I do

[quote=TJ]it really is my position that I do my damnedest to avoid being influenced by marketing

Followed by the fact that you avoid branded stuff?

Its a high dose of caffine in a convenient form

Graham - you still miss the point

I am but an ignorant worm, oh enlightened one, but I'll try to keep up. 🙄

Its about avoiding beiong a part of the consumerist society. Once one understands one can reject marketing then the need to buy consumer goods reduces.

Teach us, oh great one.

😛

Do you [i]honestly[/i] you've cracked some magical truth here TJ?? Shown that the Emperor is naked? Do you honestly think that me and the other ignorant souls on this thread are debating with you purely because we have yet you achieve your beatific vision and understanding of consumerist society?

FWIW, I do generally [u]try[/u] to avoid overt consumerism. I do get stuff second hand. I do try to mend rather than throw away and buy new. And I do attempt to be as subjective as I can when I buy things.

I suspect that a large number of people on here would say the same thing.

But I still recognise that branding works and does influence decisions. Even on you. Whether you like it or not.

Charlie - you need to understand the concept of the object as being separate from the brand. I buyu red bull because of what it is not because of what it is marketed as

you keep saying this, no one asked you about this. I'm asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink? Why you first picked it up? and why that one over any other

No charlie - you are still telling me that I cannot act and think as I do.

No, I'm not. I fully believe you act and think as you do. I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

its true we will argue about **** all

But I still recognise that branding works and does influence decisions. Even on you. Whether you like it or not.

Graham / charlie. You need to have a look at what I have said with an open mind.

You keep telling me that I cannot do what I do. this is really rather offensive. Just because you don't understand does not mean it is not possible.

Well, his blood chemistry sensors indicated a low caffeine level, and having no access to a cup of coffee, he went to a shop - chosen at random, since the signs on the outside meant nothing to him - and conducted an analysis of all the drinks on sale, and discovered that the most caffeine per Scots penny was provided by No-Name Cola.

But then he remembered the sexy ads and bought a Red Bull.

CharlieMungus - Member

"No charlie - you are still telling me that I cannot act and think as I do".

No, I'm not. I fully believe you act and think as you do. I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

thats exactly it - you are telling me I cannot act and think as I do a perfect example in a single sentance

You keep telling me that I cannot do what I do. this is really rather offensive. Just because you don't understand does not mean it is not possible.

And you keep implying that we are weak-minded inferior fools for falling for this "branding nonsense" - so the offence is mutual.

You keep telling me that I cannot do what I do. this is really rather offensive. Just because you don't understand does not mean it is not possible.

You think that's offensive? Wait till they start laughing at your pointy Vulcan ears!!

Red Bull: I'm asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink? Why you first picked it up? and why that one over any other.

thats exactly it - you are telling me I cannot act and think as I do a perfect example in a single sentance

GrahamS

And you keep implying that we are weak-minded inferior fools for falling for this "branding nonsense" - so the offence is mutual.

really? where?

You did, TJ, I can't be bothered to wade back through 17 pages to find it. But you definitely called people gullible.

Look - when people create a product, they have to decide what they want to do. The people at Porsche decided that they wanted to make fast cars, so that's what they did. That's building a brand. It's the reason they don't make slow ones, cos their brand is fast.

That's a fact - their cars really are fast, so you're not being duped. They're not pretending they are fast, or trying to convince you they are fast when they are not. They ARE fast, that's an incontrovertible fact. And it's the core of their brand.

Branding IS about facts as well as emotions. And sometimes lies.

Charlie

I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

Ie you are saying I do not act in the manner I know I do.

TJ, you do keep ignoring the main example of the infuence of branding. Quite studiously, it seems.

The Red Bull. One amongst many. You picked it up, apparently because you want caffeine. Why not any of the others? Have you tasted them all? why not coffee? why not a glass of water and a pro-plus?

Go on TJ, why DO you buy Red Bull over other caffeine-based drinks? I am still waiting.

the object as being separate from the brand. I buyu red bull because of what it is not because of what it is marketed as

Food & drink raises an interesting point. What is often sold as the same product is not necessarily the same all over the world. The recipes used to make food & drink products are often amended to make the product suit a certain market.

If you wanted to buy a Red Bull in Thailand it would be very different to what you get in the UK.

The simple fact that a Red Bull is available to you and the way it tastes, is this not part of marketing?

Ie you are saying I do not act in the manner I know I do

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

Molgrips - you are still missing my point. i completely understand what branding is and accept this

Branding IS about facts as well as emotions. And sometimes lies.

And what I do tho is try to look beyond the branding at the inherent attributes ie the facts and use them to make the decisions whilst doing my best to ignore the emotions and lies.

this is what graham does not get with the red bull example. I buy it for what it is - a high caffeine drink ( and I only buy red bull if there is no palatable cheaper alternative) I don't buy it for its association with adventure and sport, I buy it cos it will help me keep awake ant 3am

mastiles_fanylion - Member

Go on TJ, why DO you buy Red Bull over other caffeine-based drinks? I am still waiting.

if its the only palatable one available. I buy the cheaper ones if they are available assuming I find them palatable. I have tried most of them

CharlieMungus - Member

Ie you are saying I do not act in the manner I know I do

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

but... I'm asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink? Why you first picked it up? and why that one over any other.

then why say this?
I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

There is no conflict.

[img] [/img]

And what I do tho is try to look beyond the branding at the inherent attributes

Yes, but the inherent attributes are part of the brand.

Red Bull is an interesting example because before it arrived there was not much of a market for high caffeine fizzy drinks. The fact that TJ even considered the possibility of buying such a product ia testament to the power of advertising.

<awaits inevitable denial >

[img] [/img]

😯

FFS - can you not grasp the basic concept here?

but... I'm asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink?Why you first picked it up?

I drink it on night shifts

and why that one over any other.

I don't - I buy the cheapest palatable one. So sometimes red rooster, sometimes the lidl variant.

this is the concept you cannot seem to get. Red bull is a product with attributes. I go to the shop thinking - "I want a can of super caffine juice " and I buy the cheapest palatable one with the right ingredients.

> And you keep implying that we are weak-minded inferior fools for falling for this "branding nonsense" - so the offence is mutual.

really? where?

Errr.. bascally [u]throughout[/u] your entire 30,000 word argument.
Some choice things you have said:

[u]I pity anyone who believes in all this stuff[/u] and who wastes their life and / or money doing it...

This is [u]clearly a very difficult concept for some of you to understand[/u]. some of us do this. we buy for what things are...

[u]You confuse[/u] what something is branded as for what its properties are. One is inherent, one is a construct.

[u]you guys grossly overestimate[/u] the importance of this stuff and grossly overestimate how many people see it as you do.

..clever advertising can assiciate your product with certain attributes in they eyes of [u]the gullible.[/u].. However you need to accept that for many of us we see straight thru it.

...Unlike you guys [u]I do understand[/u] that what the product is is not always the same as what it is branded and marketed as.

...You have to separate the object from the referent. this is the bit [u]you and the other believers in marketing are not getting[/u].

...a part of what [u]you fail to understand[/u] is that I am not paying your game at all. I don't play the consumerist game.

...[u]you seem unable to understand[/u] that there is another way of thinking and working that involves actively discounting the branding and looking beyond that at what it is.

...to you the object is the referent so [u]you cannot grasp this concept[/u].

...because [u]yo don't understand[/u] you make up things

...this is the bit [u]you find so hard to grasp[/u] - what the object is and what it is branded and marketed as are not always the same thing.

...The other thing [u]I understand[/u] that people seem to have difficulty with is the object is not the brand.

...this is the bit [u]you guys need to learn and understand[/u]

etc etc etc etc etc

Executive somethingion: TJ understands. We do not. We are gullible and should be pitied.

You did, TJ, I can't be bothered to wade back through 17 pages to find it.

I can 😀

[img] [/img]

CharlieMungus - Member

then why say this?
I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

There is no conflict.

Can you not understand simple words? you are completely contradicting yourself - are you the red queen?

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

GrahamS

is your comprehension that limited? really that is ridiculous.

You have failed to understand an basic cornerstone of the debate and are not open minded enough to accept that.

if its the only palatable one available. I buy the cheaper ones if they are available assuming I find them palatable. I have tried most of them