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Pure undiluted branding Genius from the combined genius of Tony Wilson, Peter Saville and Rob Gretton
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[i]I am getting rather bored.[/i]
well just stop posting FFS - I assume no one's holding a gun to your head?
you are clearly never going to convince everyone about whatever it is you're trying to say makes you different to the other 8 billion people on the planet when it comes to brand recognition and association so why not just give up?
And I forgot the wonderful Island records logo, as seen on many great albumen sleeves.
Sorry.
Rusty Spanner.
That's good, not 'lol' good but 'nice one' good.
I have never saidcompletely impervious and it definitely never having any influence
[b][u]Yes you did.[/u] [/b]
You said repeatedly throughout this discussion that it has no influence at all on you. Many people, including me, have queried you on that and asked you how it can possibly have NO influence.
In fact you're opening gambit was that you [i]"pity anyone who believes in all this stuff and who wastes their life and / or money doing it."[/i] - which rather implies that you don't [i]believe[/i] in it and it is a waste of money because it has no influence.
The branding for MDMA was genius....
discuss..
No Graham I did not. Look I just pointed out to you where in the space of two lines you took a qualified statement of mine and turned it into an absolute. 🙄
not [i]that[/i] bored then.
True yunki, 'Despair' doesn't have the same ring to it as 'Ecstacy'.
No Graham I did not. Look I just pointed out to you where in the space of two lines you took a qualified statement of mine and turned it into an absolute.
Are you really saying that you didn't say this?
I pity anyone who believes in all this stuff and who wastes their life and / or money doing it
Skim read 23 pages so sorry if already mentioned but if branding is so meaningless how does Apple sell its expensive products over often technologically superior equivalents?
'Cos Steve Jobs is a nice guy?
Influencing behavour in a crisis by asserting authority:
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Well, that's obviously the main reason but after that? 😉
skim read 23 pages so sorry if already mentioned but if branding is so meaningless how does Apple sell its expensive products over often technologically superior equivalents?
Ouch!!! Suddenly the level of bollox being spouted ascends to a whole new level!!
In fact Apple is another case in point - it's possible to spend your lifetime comparing specs of different computers, but when you buy an Apple product you know pretty much what you will get, so the Apple brand communicates the values of the company in a concise and effective way.
start listening to what I have said?
quite honestly you don't say it clearly enough or choose to answer only certain aspects of questions or discard them wholly that is actually impossible to converse.
id like to further enlighten TJ about branding..............
- by branding him on the forehead.
for those that are genuinely interested - this is a good watch, and sort of related
For 24 hours this has raged. I had to come back and catch up. Awesome thread, even if its led to me having 40 omelettes.
The claim by anyone (who's in a position to comment on a web forum) that they are utterly, categorically impervious to branding is naive. Branding has shaped, and continues to shape, the very world in which we all live. Even those completely impervious to the ever-alluring messages of the super brands still live in a world shaped by branding.
As this is STW, I feel it is my duty to bring to this thread that which, despite it's biblical length, has bizarrely been so far lacking. I will make huge and very tenuous pseudo intellectual leaps so as to involve both Thatcher and the Nazis. I think you'll all agree, from whichever side of the fence you stand, that this is the correct thing to do at this juncture. So here goes:
The Nazi party was successful for many reasons, but part of its strategy for success was to brand itself very well. We don't know how much of an effect the brand had on the success of the Nazis, but the potential benefits of it meant it was a worthwhile consideration at the time. We went to war with the Nazis. Thousands lost their lives. That world war had a profound effect on the world we now live in.
Branding has therefore had an effect on TJs life.
The capitalist idea, so beloved of Thatcher among many others, that handing the nation's reigns to the free market economy is the best way to run a society has led a generation of politicians into kowtowing to big business. Big businesses therefore hold significant sway over the governance of our nation. Big businesses get where they are by marketing and branding themselves well.
Branding has therefore had an effect on TJs life.
But aside from that, rather more seriously:
The products that are on the shelves now are generally there because they've been successfully branded and marketed. The few new items Jeremy does objectively choose to buy are only those from that list. Therefore the objects he gets to buy are only available to him because they are successful brands.
Branding has therefore had an effect on TJs life.
Thatcher: Check.
Nazis: Check.
Eggs.
DrJ, I rather thought that was the point I was trying to make! Apple doesn't sell a product it sells a "user experience".
900
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so the Apple brand communicates the values of the company in a concise and effective way.
And more importantly the lifestyle associated with owning an Apple product.
Which I imagine is young/professional/successful and with significant disposable income.
But the thread is about logos.
What does this convey?
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[/img]What does it say about the company? Not what you know now, but what the image conveys.
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Clever.
The 'smiley face' is made up of the T, U and I in a very abstract manner.
It's all been eggstreemly interesting.
No Graham I did not. Look I just pointed out to you where in the space of two lines you took a qualified statement of mine and turned it into an absolute.
Have you been having an entirely different discussion for the past day and a half then TJ???
Maybe you need more Red Bull™ because many, many people have repeatedly said to you that it is impossible to escape the influence of logos, brands and marketing.
Myself included.
And you have repeatedly told us off for claiming that what you claim to do is impossible. In fact you just did it again in our previous exchange.
That has been pretty much the [u]entire[/u] thrust of our debate.
In fact I would summarise the debate as:
You say: brands are meaningless. Design is meaningless. It's a waste of money. I pity the foos.
We say: you can't escape the influence of brands.
You say: I can.
We say: You can't. You can [i]try[/i] to dismiss it if you choose, but it is still an influence.
You say: please stop telling me what I can't do. I dismiss it entirely and base my choices purely on the inherent Buddhist nature of an OBJECT and I am entirely unmoved by the BRAND.
We say: well, you [i]try[/i], but what about A, B, C...
You say: no I am the Zen master of ignoring brand influence, you are all gullible little sheeple.
We say: okay, well what about X, Y, Z...
You say: those are trick questions
etc etc etc etc
Fair point
What does this convey?[img]
Isn't that the apple that Alan Turing ate to commit suicide when he saw that all his hard work would be used to facilitate pointless stupid arguments?
Very interesting indeed Bunnyhop, but the whole thing has scrambled my poor brain.
Influencing behavour in a crisis by asserting authority:
Actually, I'd heard this morning that the Keep Calm and carry on Poster was never used. It was supposed to be used in the event of a German invasion
Does any of this really matter?
This thread is about logos and how they have been intelligently formed to convey more about the business or (which I find more amusing) are inadvertently inappropriate.
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and some awesome ones on use of negative space....
http://webdesignledger.com/inspiration/clever-examples-of-negative-space-in-logo-design
You keep accusing folk of not listening to you or putting words in your mouth TJ so here is your own petard once again:
[u]Branding means nothing at all to me.[/u] I buy based on what things are not on the brandingsome of us see the object for what it is not for what it is branded as.
I buy for what things are not for what they are branded / marketed as.
some of us do this. we buy for what things are
there is another way of thinking and working that involves actively discounting the branding and looking beyond that at what it is
I am aware of the marketing techniques - I chose to ignore them.
[u]i don't own branded goods.[/u]
marketing only works with the gullible
How can you possibly read that lot back and then say you were not claiming to be impervious to the influence of branding and marketing????
That is [u]exactly[/u] what you were claiming. I'm not sure how it can be read any other way.
Perhaps if you had liberally sprinkled the word "try" over that, rather than being so absurdly absolute, then you would have been far closer to the truth and no one would have claimed that your position was impossible.
Go Graham, Go Graham, Go Graham... you can do it!! I have absolute faith that you will win this one, keep it up! You will get there! 😀
You say: brands are meaningless. Design is meaningless. It's a waste of money. I pity the foos.
We say: you can't escape the influence of brands.
You say: I can.
We say: You can't. You can try to dismiss it if you choose, but it is still an influence.
You say: please stop telling me what I can't do. I dismiss it entirely and base my choices purely on the inherent Buddhist nature of an OBJECT and I am entirely unmoved by the BRAND.
We say: well, you try, but what about A, B, C...
You say: no I am the Zen master of ignoring brand influence, you are all gullible little hens.
We say: okay, well what about eggs, Y, Z...
You say: those are trick questions
FTFY...
we all know what TJ was getting at.. what he meant.. and that what he meant was just and good..
it's just a bear baiting thread again..
wholesome
it's just a bear baiting thread again..
I can't bear bear baiting!
It's even worse when they are exposed and naked
we all know what TJ was getting at.. what he meant.
all of us except TJ
I buy for what things are not for what they are branded / marketed as.
I think this is saying that he is aware of brands and this do not affect his purchasing as he uses other criteria than the branding/ marketing to influence his purchasing. I am not really sure why people have chosen to take this as controversial tbh.
i doubt he is alone in this tbh.
marketing only works with the gullible
Anyone bought a powerband yet? Why not impervious to their branding and marketing are we?
I'd heard this morning that the Keep Calm and carry on Poster was never used. It was supposed to be used in the event of a German invasion
you heard this Today 😉
It's not bear baiting, it's trying to educate him, and also to get him to accept that we're not all pitiful gullible fools. Which is quite clear to me from the excellent and deeply knowledgeable and intelligent contributions from many of the protagonists.
Logos, brands and marketing mean much less and are much less effective than those in the industry claim
So, where's your evidence for this?
You do realise that if TJ actually admits defeat he will immediately vanish and be replaced by something equally incomprehensible?
Just saying like....
[url= http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/5078166152_456be221ff.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/grahamsblog/5078166152/ ]Unevolved Brand #[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/grahamsblog/ ]imjustcreative[/url], on Flickr
Who's this then?
Logos, brands and marketing mean much less and are much less effective than those in the industry claim
So, where's your evidence for this?
I can guve you evidence from astrologers and psychics who can "prove" how they will improve your wealth and health etc if you just spend some money with them. I assume you will accept that on face value?
Obviously someone in marketing is not going to say no it is a waste of money everything we do is BS. I think it is reasonable to suggest it is not as effective as they would claim - not saying ineffective*. Lacking research [ as does the implied counter claim that it works] anecdotally I would ask why they reduce advertising and marketing when the economy goes belly up rather than increase it to maintain sales. Seems even business agrees tbh.
* i would say it is good for brand recognition - making you aware a product exists or selling something the products itself does not have like say prestige like say rapha or most sports ware. It has to be backed up by a good product though people will eventually stop buying drinks or tops if they taste awful or the tops fall apart quickly etc.
Some folk will avoid buying and blatantly labelled clothes item for example so it cannot work on everyone.
Google.
I think what TJ is trying to say is that he is soooo clever he isn't influenced by marketing and braynding cos his brain is too strong.
Yeah, it's all well and good to say 'pah, my brain is too strong to be influenced by braynding', but to dismiss braynding as 'unimportant', which you seemed to do early on in this thread is just cobbly bobblers no I'm sorry it is.
Branding has bin used in Human society to communicate ideas since the year dot. From tribal colours, religious symbolism, right through to Meerkats and that irritating Intel jingle. So, it can easily be argued that it's inherent within our Human Nature to create 'braynds', as they help us identify with each other, codes of social organisation, social groups, and the products we consume.
What bike do you ride Jeremy? Why did you choose it? What components are on it, and why did you choose them?
Why do you have your hair in the particular style it is in? Why do you shave? Why do you dress in a particular manner?
It's all about communicating things in a visual manner. We grow up fluent in certain forms of visual communication.
You know what; you should be truly grateful you have the gift of sight, and can enjoy the visual world in which you live. Every day I am thankful for this.
And deep down you're no different to the rest of us. It's ok; admitting you are influenced by braynds like everyone else is ok, it won't make you any less of a person you know.
So be'ave and stop upsetting folk will you. This cooduv bin such a wonderful thread, I'm sure Winegums intended it to be such. A bit of debate is ok, in fact we should discuss things, share ideas and that. But you've gone and twisted it all up TJ, spoilt it for everyone else.
You've ruined it TJ, you've ruined it.
Anyone bought a powerband yet? Why not impervious to their branding and marketing are we?
Well I know what a PowerBand is without resorting to Google - so the branding has clearly been pretty effective.
But I also reckon it's a load of old crap and I wouldn't buy one - so the marketing has been less good.
But I also reckon it's a load of old crap and I wouldn't buy one - so the marketing has been less good.
nothing to do with the product being crap then..?
Elfinsafety - MemberSo be'ave and stop upsetting folk will you. This cooduv bin such a wonderful thread, I'm sure Winegums intended it to be such. A bit of debate is ok, in fact we should discuss things, share ideas and that. But you've gone and twisted it all up TJ, spoilt it for everyone else.
Well said Fred 🙂
Worst of all is the spoiling has seemingly been done for personal amusement, taking away any opportunity for sharing and growth....
That is the point GrahamS marketing cannot make you buy a crap product. It has an effect but it is not as powerful as we are led to believe.If it was you could market anything and sell it to anyone. Obviously some of us are , at least some of the time, unaffected by the marketing spiel as we still dismiss these claims
No amount of marketing will get you to buy as you know what the placebo effect is.
[url= http://www.theshoppingchannel.com/ ]http://www.theshoppingchannel.com/[/url]
I guess not everyone has superhuman powers. I'm sure I buy things that you would consider to be crap and vice versa.
Junkyard - the people who spend big money on marketing look at their revenues before and after a campaign. That's how they judge effectiveness. And yes there are other factors, but they are aware of those too typically. Many of these people are very clever indeed AND have devoted their careers to management, so it's a bit daft for us to sit here and claim they know bugger all.
that the point marketing cannot make you buy a crap product
No, but it can affect your opinion as to what crap actually is. Quite a lot of companies do very well by selling what many would consider crap.
But please. Don't confuse marketing spiel with branding.
jackthedogAs this is STW, I feel it is my duty to bring to this thread that which, despite it's biblical length, has bizarrely been so far lacking. I will make huge and very tenuous pseudo intellectual leaps so as to involve both Thatcher and the Nazis. I think you'll all agree, from whichever side of the fence you stand, that this is the correct thing to do at this juncture. So here goes:
fantastic.
I salute you in a non ironic manner.
Many of those doing astrology and offering psychic services are very bright AND have devoted their careers to this, so its a bit daft for us to sit here and claim they know bugger all.
I get your point and I am sur eyou can get mine. It is not as black and white as peole on either side seem to be suggesting.
I dont claim it has no effect I am claiming it is not as brilliant as marketing would have us believe and back on topic I dont think a logo alone and a great marketing campaign can make you sell a poor product.
If marketing worked for all we would all buy the same products [ and really shonky shoddy ones as well and you , graham and JY would be out to buy powerbands due to the successful campaigns and the claims made for the product. We are not so it is not universal effective.
Everyone can resist the power of this at times even if you recognise the logo or brand.
But please. Don't confuse marketing spiel with branding.
i wont ,ok I might but so have many on here though I have only dipped in and not followed fully] but the two are interlinked.
But please. Don't confuse marketing spiel with branding.
Not the only one to confuse the two on this thread.
It has amused me espeically all the folk making up stuff " what I think TJ is saying is" read my posts - you will see what I am saying or ask for clarification if its not clear.
Jackthedog undertstands the point although he sees my qualified position as absolute, junkyard and crikey get it.
I do apologise if anyone got upset.
I was doing two things here espousing a veiwpoint and set of values that I hold and many of you have clearly never seen and poking the pretentious with s pointed stick.
Hilldoddger - there is a opportunity for sharing and growth here if people want to take it. gaining some understanding of a point of view that is foreign to them.
finally elf
my good bike is a 20 yr old raleigh titanium frame with a variety of second hand components bought as a frame onlyWhat bike do you ride Jeremy?
a friend I trust had it for sale and suggested it would suit me. they were rightWhy did you choose it?
What components are on it, and why did you choose them?
Rockshox fork - came with the insurance replacement bike.
Hope hoops - available secondhand from a friend, I like cartridge bearing wheels for rebuildability,
hope minis, bought secondhand - I like rebuildability.
Shimano octalink crank - available cheaply secondhand - appears a good deal for longevity,
front mech from my spares box,
xtr rear mech bought given to me as a one of a load of accident damaged ones I built one good mech from.
SBG saddle - bought new in a search for comfort - 3rd seat I tried on a personal recommendation.
Not much marketing there
I'll say it again - this is a point of view that I believe in . Indeed its a keystone of my life I have followed for decades. I am aware its a foreign viewpoint to many but I am a little surprised at the vehemence of the rejection I got.
However I will confess to poking people with metaphorical sticks. Most seemed to take it in good part however if anyone got upset during this then please accept my apologies
junkyard and crikey get it.
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only 65 posts to go
Where the f*** can I buy some eggs at this time of night?
Why did you see fit to mention the brands of your bike and it's components?
Ha!
[i]My case resteth M'Lud.[/i]
Take him down.
however if anyone got upset during thei then please accept my apologies
It's too late Jeremy. It's too late.
On here you've got yer Binners and yer Winegums and all sorts of other creative people, who are passionate about what they do, and it's great to be able to come onto the forum and have discussions about stuff and share ideas and that. Like with the Architecture threads. every week my eyes are opened just a bit wider, I see stuff I din't know about, and my conciousness is expanded a little bit more. I learn things, and really enjoy the whole process. I gain a true sense of joy from them, and hope others enjoy them too,.
When I read the title of this thread, I though 'cool, a thread about logo design and stuff'. Sadly, it seems it's become more a vehicle for your ego, and has just served to upset folk, and inspire antagonism and resentment.
And that's mainly your fault TJ. So don't try pretending you're all apologetic and that you care, cos if you did, you wooduv stated your case, then left others to enjoy something they take pleasure from, and that makes them happy.
I've defended you many a time from people having a pop at you for no good reason TJ, but this time, I'm sorry but you deserve all the flak you get.
You need to step back and have a think about how your comments can affect people.
I tell you what, as an attempt to once and for all get this whole thread back to a happy place, why not post pics of your favourite logos/examples of braynds, and tell us why you like them? You don't have to endorse the products or services, it can just simple be about the enjoyment of graphic design, colours, shapes, forms etc. Nice happy things.
I really like the Mothercare logo, because it symbolises caring, protection, making something safe, nurturing- Motherhood.
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Simple, yet beautiful. I like the way the lower case letter m has bin used, sort of softens it somehow, makes it less authoritarian.
It has amused me espeically all the folk making up stuff " what I think TJ is saying is" read my posts - you will see what I am saying or ask for clarification if its not clear.
I've recently quoted a whole bunch of your own posts right back at you. For clarification. And you ignored it.
As you always do when you run out of arguments.
Love it. Absolutely love it....
I have always had a sneaking admiration for TJ, not man love, just a liking for the way you conduct yourself on here. You come across as a human being, with flaws and faults, but your essential strength of character always shines through.
It gives me a great deal of pleasure to see one of the longest threads I recall be basically a repeating version of
'It's like this TJ'
'No, it's not'
'It is like this TJ'
'No really, it's not'
'It really is like this TJ'
'No, sorry, but it's not'
Chapeau fella, good health!
...and Elf, you're just jealous because you along with a significant number of the great and good of the forum have been well and truly TeeJayed.
Why did you see fit to mention the brands of your bike and it's components?
He didn't. He doesn't really own them.
TJ has already explicitly said he doesn't own ANY branded products.
He is never wrong. So it must be you that is wrong.
No don't encourage his egotistical nastiness please Crikey. Let's be nice and share happy thoughts and ideas instead.
How about this signifier of childhood, too:
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TJ has already explicitly said he doesn't own ANY branded products.
I have not read this thread in full, nor shall I, but I call "LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE" at TJ.
Trolls are a "branded" product and you have a collection of them.
Why did you see fit to mention the brands of your bike and it's components?
on a thread about brands when you asked him what sort of bike he had ...one can only guess at why he thought this was relevant.
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[/img]happy now elfin 😉
No don't encourage his [b]extraordinary patience and grim determination in the face of [/b]egotistical nastiness please
FTFY
[Sigh...]
(Carries on in the folorn hope people might once again be nice and happy with one another...)
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I've not read all the preceding stuff, but as some recognition of the fundamental brilliance with which you have been engaged, I suggest that, to take this thread up to the significant 1000 post mark, those of you who care so deeply should design a logo for the brand "TJ."
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[img] http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQnc-rCgUYF6znO7mj-lyTlNIhWVk5-hSMQW3SHkVm9p4P9LADtg [/img]
elf - calm down, calm down.
Want a logo or two? some of my faves already posted.
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GrahamSTJ has already explicitly said he doesn't own ANY branded products.
No I have not as you have repeatedly been told.
I suggest that, to take this thread up to the significant 1000 post mark, those of you who care so deeply should design a logo for the brand "TJ."
Kind of like this?
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Trolls you say CFH? Some of my best friends are trolls
[url= http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3176/2920571243_84d6e4fa1b_b.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/2920571243/ ]Trolls[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr
TJ
Branding does work on you. You have said you will buy red bull as you know that you quite like it. You can spot it in the shop because of the branding which is what branding is all about. its ment to make your company/product reconisable from others and at a distance. not all brands are trying to sell you stuff there are many charities who use branding and go to great lenghts to protect this such as WWF.
(Carries on in the folorn hope people might once again be nice and happy with one another...)
This would appear to be one of the better humoured threads I've seen, no name calling, no shouting down just simple debate. Boring, yet simple debate and nothing more.
elf - i am more than happy to see a logo as a nice picture that acts a shorthand for the word that is the name of the product. Want I wont accept is that it has meaning beyond this that the whole world understands. its just a picture to denote a product that is easily recognised hence on of the earliest and IMHO best is [img] 
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The red triangle was used on the beer pumps in the days when most folk were illiterate so they knew which one to ask for. easily recognisable, nothing more than that. the epitome of a good logo
> TJ has already explicitly said he doesn't own ANY branded products.No I have not as you have repeatedly been told.
Right well this will be another one of those clarifications then TJ.
You previously said and I quote:
i don't own branded goods.
So can you clarify what that actually means please?