Usually a good rule of thumb to believe the opposite of whatever Pickles says
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26106290
😆
haven't read it but may I hazard:
"It wasn't our fault; it was them, them over there - they are entirely to blame for the situation that's got nothing to do with us"
Thinking about it, Eric Pickles would make a pretty good dam himself. Stick him on the shoreline, it'd take some hefty waves to shift him.
🙂
Bit ludicrous to blame this government, or the one before it for that matter. How could they be reasonably expected to overrule the 'expert' opinion of the EA (except with the benefit of glorious hindsight)?
If the EA had recommended dredging then been forced to shelve it due to budget cuts, then it falls at the door of the government.
Doesn't the EA recommend in line with government policy? Ie reflecting the emphasis on preventing property damage and so reducing the importance of agricultural and rural work. I suppose it depends what they're asked to recommend on- whether it's "what is most important" or "given these priorities, what do we do"
Ah, good. I see the considered opinion agrees with my knee jerk reaction 🙂
40 houses in the Levels have flooded. 400 flood in York when the Ouse overtops. Where would you spend your money?
A little harsh on Pickles I reckon,...he did find the World Cup when it got nicked after all?.
Way to get the EA on your side though eh? "We thought we were taking advice from experts, we weren't"!
Brilliant.
[i]40 houses in the Levels have flooded. 400 flood in York when the Ouse overtops. Where would you spend your money? [/i]
Protect property down South, that's what's important.
Government minister lining someone else up for a fall - no news or surprise there.
Sounds innocent enough, but just a set up to end Chris Smith's reign at the EA. A bit sad to watch really, but that's politics for you!
These people seem to know what they're talking about. They wholeheartedly agree that dredging is not the answer.
[url] http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-somerset-flooding/ [/url]
STW - never let a reasoned analysis stand in the way of childishly shouting boo at a hate figure.
They wholeheartedly agree that dredging is not the answer.
Yup.
Cameron's dredge pledge is like the badger cull. It is useless. It is counterproductive. But it keeps the farmers happy and allows the government to be seen to be doing something
I think we'll see 'Blame the EA and Lord Smith' headlines on all the Tory friendly tabloids come Monday as they jump on the scapegoat bandwagon.
I wonder how much damage to the EA the Tories will inflict now they think they have carte blanche to attack it. They'll probably suggest privatising it and look to BP and Shell to bid for running it.....
I don't really know the area but if I hazarded a guess and suggested its where a load of rich people live would I be fairly close to the mark?
Why is that relevant?
No attempts were made to vilify the EA when flooding has taken place in other areas.
Because if they were at the foot of the Pennines, CMD wouldn't be bothered as he'd assume it was somewhere foreign?
[quote=Mr Woppit ]STW - never let a reasoned analysis stand in the way of childishly shouting boo at a hate figure.
Except that as in all previous pronouncements by Pickles, it seems the instant reaction is accurate.
Presumably you also think Gove knows a lot about education?
Presume away. Can't quite see why you'd presume that. Perhaps you're a bit of a numpty.
I watched Pickles on the tellypanel today say that he admitted the government were wrong, but that they had taken advice from what were supposed to be "experts" in the EA.
Seems reasonable to me.
Interestingly, they couldn't find £5 mill to dredge, but they could find £31 mill to set up a sanctuary for the little birdies of the west country (which was the first place that Chris Smith visited when he arrived)...
[quote=Mr Woppit ]I watched Pickles on the tellypanel today say that he admitted the government were wrong, but that they had taken advice from what were supposed to be "experts" in the EA.
Seems reasonable to me.
Except that as discussed on this thread the EA experts were correct with their advice not to dredge (I have to admit I did already know that was the case - being a paddler and often out on the Severn in flood you get to appreciate how rivers actually work - the Guardian article posted above is pretty much on the ball). It is an interesting gambit to admit you're wrong when you're not though.
"reasonable" is not a word generally associated with Eric Pickles.
Do keep going though.
Seems reasonable to me.
Except that just about every expert in the field says that dedging would make next to no difference, but does damage the rivers.....
We've been told for over 10 years in the EA we're receding from the countryside and landowners have been told this. As Lord Smith said choose one the countryside or towns as we haven't the budget to do both. And as for blaming Labour our worst cuts have come under this current government.
This has all got very political and its got to the point I can't watch the BBC or SKY news as they just seem like leeches thats came out of the flood stirring the shit.
That article seems pretty comprehensive.
He went on to suggest something I never thought I would hear from his lips: "Also, we need to do more to hold water back, way back in the hills.
Well, let's do that, then.
It does beg the question - if Pickles was listening to "experts" from the EA who were telling him NOT to dredge (and telling him to hold the water back in the hills), why is he talking about dredging?
Presumably because he is being driven by the need to be seen to be doing something quickly. Which the distressed will be happy with in the short term. Cynical manipulation, then.
EDIT: I seem to recall reading way back in the '70's, that the reason the northern plains of India suffered flooding was because of deforestation of the lower slopes of the Himalayas. It might be a good idea if the politicians actually DID "learn the lessons", but I don't hold out much hope...
The EA's latest map of flooding hotspots is pretty sobering.
[img] 
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Was reading a blog by Dominic Fairman, who runs an organic farm & campsite on Bodmin Moor.
He was saying that 10yrs of re-planting the moors, & encouraging certain modes of farming has seen the Moor retain more water & therefore the rivers coping with the recent downpours. From what he was saying none of his local rivers have burst their banks because of this.
Year 8 geographers know that dredging is only one of many factors involved with flood management. Different responses required in different parts of the catchment area. But increasing interception levels and slowing run-off higher up is important as is dredging!!
They are tearing up the requirement to plant hedges at the same time. The most science-blind government since the Enlightenment 😥
Non-elected enlightened-self-interested technocracy, anyone?
Seems as if most of Worcester today is cut off due to floods, alos quite a few shropshire towns,
What will they do when sea levels rise, dredge the oceans?
I'm always interested to see how we cope when nature reminds us that we're tenants rather than Lords and masters.
Better to admit that you* caused it by not dredging than facing up to the fact that you've done sweet fa to deal with the causes of climate change
*well actually just blame the civil servants ala gove coz the coalition only accept responsibility if something works
Wouldn't expect anything else from pickles tho I was reminded of Blackadder
scoop him out and use him as a houseboat [\quote]
Still no sensible reporting in the msm about EU directives being at the heart of the problem. And the lack of "labour says" puff pieces from Auntie knows that they are well aware of where the fingers should also be pointed and they are just keeping their heads down. All part of the wonderful Blair legacy.
Ps44 - old booker is taking that in, in the S Tel. Two of his pet hates, EU and climate change in one go!!
It is absolutely mental, completely unrelated ministers wading into an issue on which they have no connection or credentials to comment. The only motivation is politicking.
All of the rivers get tide locked not too far downstream too, you can dredge all you like but when we have record high tides none of the water in the river can go anywhere and so it backs up.
Even if that weren't the case its terribly naive to look at the amount of water on the land and think "yup, dig the rivers a bit and that'd all flow away." As I said, mental. But politician mental which unfortunately means that it'll have repercussions.
I've only skimmed this thread, but we need to cull the badgers as they haven't dredged the rivers which would have flooded anyway?
I expect they'll announce an otter cull...
These people seem to know what they're talking about. They wholeheartedly agree that dredging is not the answer.http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-somerset-flooding/
An interesting set of articles but the writers all empathise with flood victims and Lord Smith didn't and wouldn't. For that alone he should be sacked I think. Just too remote, urban and disinterested in the countryside.
And for the person who suggested the Levels might be a 'rich' area; rest assured they aren't. a few commuters to Taunton and Bristol and some retirees aside its a pretty humble, unpretentious sort of place. Far enough away from London and other cities to still be properly rural.
40 houses in the Levels have flooded. 400 flood in York when the Ouse overtops. Where would you spend your money?
Which flooded village in particular were you thinking of? Do you honestly think there are only forty houses in 26 square miles of flooded countryside? 🙄
Badgers are notorious for digging setts in flood defence embankments. Its all connected..the badgers are wreaking their vengeance.
I thought fat people were jolly? He seems terribly upset most of the time.
Do you honestly think there are only forty houses in 26 square miles of flooded countryside?
Possibly only 40 houses low enough. I drove past an awful lot of floods today, and it was fairly obvious that most of the house builders through the centuries had the foresight to put the houses on higher ground, even the farm houses. Didn't see a single flooded house (of course there may have been some out of sight).
there is a video on flagsomerset facebook page which will show the extent of flooding close up ... about 40 houses shown in just one short video . [url=
Somerset local by the way
[quote=teamhurtmore ]But increasing interception levels and slowing run-off higher up is [b]far more[/b] important [s]as is[/s] [b]than[/b] dredging!!
FTFY - as explained above, dredging makes little difference to river capacity once you're in the flood plains, and is not really a significant factor in flooding.
[quote=MoreCashThanDash ]I've only skimmed this thread, but we need to cull the badgers as they haven't dredged the rivers which would have flooded anyway?
I think the badgers put a hole in something and let all the water in when they moved the goalposts.
Possibly only 40 houses low enough. I drove past an awful lot of floods today, and it was fairly obvious that most of the house builders through the centuries had the foresight to put the houses on higher ground, even the farm houses. Didn't see a single flooded house (of course there may have been some out of sight).
Here, Molly, this might give you the clue you actually need:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/27-staggering-new-pictures-of-the-somerset-levels-floods
Edited - sympathy to those affected, but dredging isn't any sort of sustainable solutions and Pickles should be ashamed of his comments.
50 then.
I thought they were drained by some dutch engineer a few hundred years ago?
Someone posted this earlier in the week. An interesting read:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/13/flooding-public-spending-britain-europe-policies-homes
Mr Pickles has forgotten that advice is just that. The minister is there to take the decision and see that policy is then implemented. Policy to date has been to cut the budget and appoint an Environment minister that does not know his brief.
aracer - Member
FTFY - as explained above, dredging makes little difference to river capacity once you're in the flood plains, and is not really a significant factor in flooding.
True I was being polite 😉
Policy to date has been to cut the budget and appoint an Environment minister that does not know his brief.
He seems to know exactly what his job is. Under Treasury rules they weren't allowed to fund dredging as the maximum sum they were allowed to allocate wasn't enough to do the work.....
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/feb/09/floods-environment-agency-chris-smith-hits-back
Well I have been on the end of Woppit like abuse from the enlightened masses that believe the human blimp Pickles and his ilk. I am getting pretty fed up with it.
Pickles also said they were going to put on bigger trains and use planes 😯 laughable
"call me Dave" is where I was working on Thursday funnily enough everyone was really nice to us down there. I wonder what other crap he will promise to appease his electorate.
One of my Environment Agency friends was publicly and loudly harangued as 'lazy and useless' by a member of the public on Friday. Interesting timing as he was actually attending an incident at the time in the vociferous individual's village. Not quite sure what the gentleman was trying to achieve tbh.
knottie8 - Memberthere is a video on flagsomerset facebook page which will show the extent of flooding close up ... about 40 houses shown in just one short video . video
I feel sorry for the 40 houses that have flooded, but its still only 40 houses. The ammount of government money being spent on on them is a bit ridiculous.
It really isn't a big area that is flooded in the levels, and the whole blame game that is going on is ridiculous, the media are making it what it is. It's a flood plain anyway, why the surprise?
[img] 
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I think the figure for flooded houses on the Levels is up to about the 60 mark now - as said above, houses on the area are usually on the highest ground around which can be as high as a dizzy 5 metres or so!
I wouldn't want to dismiss the very real distress and huge inconvenience - Muchelney (about 4 miles away from me) has been cut off from road access for about 6 weeks now - but how much is it worth spending? Even the agricultural land is pretty poor.
Pigface - Member
Well I have been on the end of Woppit like abuse
Excuse me?
"Since the start of December, 5,000 properties have flooded, including 60 on the Somerset Levels."
[url] http://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/10994435.SOMERSET_FLOODS__Villagers_flee_homes_on_Levels/?ref=var_0 [/url]
There is no doubt in my mind the flooding has been made worse by budget cuts and lack of maintenance spending. Comparable to the situation on our roads which are littered with potholes or cheap temporary raids bound to fail again soon. Comparable to the issues at Heathrow where the cash strapped owners cannot afford proper snow clearing machines. Preventative maintenance is easy to brush under carpet, fingers crossed it doesn't rain/snow/... and if it does blame "freak weather"
actual floods nowhere near as bad as the 1% flood zone shown on the EA flood maps. Building a house in those areas knowing that it will flood at some point in the life of the house is pretty daft.
There is no doubt in my mind the flooding has been made worse by budget cuts and lack of maintenance spending
and is this informed by actual science or the hysterical media reports?
If you get rain at >200% average you're going to get some flooding in flood plains. You can dredge all you like, but it will still flood. NB At high tide the rivers can't dump anything from low levels as the sea is above the flood level....
[img] 
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Preventative maintenance is easy to brush under carpet, fingers crossed it doesn't rain/snow/... and if it does blame "freak weather"
So how often should we expect disruption for freak weather? What's the benchmark?
Even the agricultural land is pretty poor.
I though flooding was good for renewing arable land?
The main road SE out of our villages is flooded to a foot deep along a fair chunk of its length, and we're sat atop 120M of chalk. It's just saturated and the only place to go is downhill now.
Footflaps +1 - If it rains an awful lot, I don't think any spending is going to help to be honest, regardless of where you are in the country (and anyone who thinks the levels is some sort of poshie Southern enclave clearly hasn't been there. That's Chipping Norton you're thinking of :-))
Some numbers for you.
635km2 (18%) of Somerset is below sea level.
In 1919 280km2 of this land was flooded. Today 65km2 is flooded. 200km2 has been protected by raised flood defences and pumping.
Sadly this has become an unedifying game of political infighting.
Interesting stats there pictonroad.
In terms of the actual science I had to laugh at
Dame Julia Slingo said the variable UK climate meant there was "no definitive answer" to what caused the storms. "But all the evidence suggests there is a link to climate change," she added.
Open ended gobbledygook - and from a chief scientist!!!!
Why is it gobbeldeygook?
Even the agricultural land is pretty poor.
I though flooding was good for renewing arable land?
This
An anual flood onto the flood plains would be a good thing for the fertility of the land, and if it happens every year we can plan for it, rather than try to prevent it and then be left up shit [s]creek[/s] lake when it does inevitably flood in freak years.
Too much building on flood plains is the issue (although ironically not too much in Somerset where very few properties have flooded).
You'll never be able to identify any one event as being definitively part of the underlying stochastic distribution or part of a longer term trend. Possibly you could give a confidence level that is is due to one or the other, but that's all.
I though flooding was good for renewing arable land?
Perhaps, but most of the levels isn't arable, it's largely pasture for web-footed sheep and cows. Also, this isn't a nice distribution of alluvial silt over the land, it's more of a huge long-lived dirty puddle. Under the water the land will now be airless and thoroughly compacted.
"Sam Notaro is one of the people left: he is continuing his desperate efforts to save his £1 million new build house from the floods."[img] 
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Clearly he should have built his house where his garden now is.
Yeah more money than sense that chap with his £1m house. I wonder how insurance works if you knowingly build a house in a flood zone on a flood plain?
I wonder how insurance works if you knowingly build a house in a flood zone on a flood plain?
you: I'd like to claim for flood damage
insurance: here's 50p, don't spend it all at once
the annex with the solar panels looks like it could be an indoor pool, oh the ironing.
the ironing is the least of his worries by the looks of it.
So we need to plant trees on hills but landowners won't because of the EU subsidies. What is the solution? More nuanced subsidies?