[Closed] Clarkson 'n-word' furore!

Not to me it wasn't.

A nursery rhyme of old that's no longer used and you using it casually, no I can't you're arguably using it in the same context.

Where did I say it was entertaining?

I meant he was using it to be 'entertaining'.

So if a newspaper reports an incident of racial abuse, and quotes the words used - they're being racist, just as much as the original abuser? Can you not see the gaping lack of logic there?

Anyway say he did use it in Nursery Rhyme of old how come that's wrong but it's not for grum and other's to use it on this and other threads?

You are actually disagreeing with him never mind us.

I watched his apology late last night I might have misunderstood what he said so if indeed he may have said it then I'm wrong then. Still I don't think he meant it in a racist way but the BBC and I assume him were wise not to use it given how many people on here seem outraged as an example but then use it themselves.

Shall we use the example of the word chinky to explain how the word can be used in a racist way and a non racist way?

Feel free to find the old posts if you want but I bet you can't find one where I referred to a person in a racist manner in any of my posts I've made.

That was the point DRAC - words can be used in a racist and a non racist way. Repeating what he says is the non racist way. Calling someone the n word is generally the racist way as we do not refer to black people by that term as it is negative and a bit racist.

It is really desperate to claim that quoting what he said is using the word yourself 🙄

So if a newspaper reports an incident of racial abuse, and quotes the words used - they're being racist, just as much as the original abuser? Can you not see the gaping lack of logic there?

It is really desperate to claim that quoting what he said is using the word yourself

No. I'm saying the context in this case is no different.

So if a newspaper reports an incident of racial abuse, and quotes the words used - they're being racist, just as much as the original abuser? Can you not see the gaping lack of logic there?

You'll notice they tend not to though, for the similar reason the word is offensive so they don't print it when complaining of others using it.

No. I'm saying the context in this case is no different.

How on earth can you claim that? 😕

How on earth can you claim that?

Because both you and JC didn't mean it in an offensive manner but the word is seen as offensive so wise not to use it.

kimbers - Member

have people actually heard the video? he definately does not say nurrnnn

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/video-watch-jeremy-clarkson-use-3481201

Thanks, that forced me to look at the clip, I couldn't previously be bothered, and in that clip Clarkson definitely doesn't say ****, he just mumbles and makes a nonsensical noise.

Although he might as well have said the word as it's so obvious that he is suggesting it. The BBC were right not to broadcast it. And it's a lot of fuss over very little imo.

Thanks, that forced me to look at the clip, I couldn't previously be bothered, and in that clip Clarkson definitely doesn't say ****, he just mumbles and makes a nonsensical noise.

Although he might as well have said the word as it's so obvious that he is suggesting it. The BBC were right not to broadcast it. And it's a lot of fuss over very little imo.

Dear God this hurts.

+1 ernie_lynch

Maybe he was quoting Mel Gibson?

People that hate him hear what they've been told/hear what they want to hear

You're as bad as all the daily mail readers who complained about Ross and Brand without hearing the show

Those with no agenda just hear him mumble something that cannot be made out.

Usual Clarkson haters drone on.

Zzzzzzz

JC didn't mean it in an offensive manner

* i am not saying you were a racist for using this word [ I would not use it mind] but you were happy to use it and defend it - you may note JC was not happy to defend it. A big difference.
you got more grief for that than required IMHO including some on going goading for it by some. I am only using as it as it useful counter example and not as means of having a dig at you. I disagree with its use but I dont think your usage makes you racist to be explicitly clear here.

You'll notice they tend not to though, for the similar reason the word is offensive so they don't print it when complaining of others using it.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2011/jan/05/censoring-mark-twain-n-word-unacceptable

I'm genuinely amazed that you can claim that a factual description of what someone said is the same as using a racist nursery rhyme on a light entertainment show in the first place.

And it's a lot of fuss over very little imo.

Isn't Clarkson middle class and therefore secretly racist though?

You're as bad as all the daily mail readers who complained about Ross and Brand without hearing the show

I have not personally seen any acts of genocide can I hold an opinion on the reported facts or do I have to have seen it?

It does hurt (and getting a bit common) but E_L +1 again 😉 (except that it is not that hard to "hear" what he says).

I would bet there was a shall we / shan't we debate about that clip and the slope one in terms of airing. It's all about pushing buttons - but rarely the Jenson versions despite the program's billing.

If that was the case he would have said it proudly and then defended it's use as you did with chinky

The N word is fairly well known to be offensive, chinky I'd never known as offensive when talking about food as mentioned in the original conversations neither did the takeaway owner.

Defending using the N word really is a very difficult thing to do which is maybe why his apology is rather confusing and difficult. It's just a word that really shouldn't be used.

i am not saying you were a racist for using this word

Thank you. Anyone who has met me would tell you that or all things I may be racist is certainly not one of them far from it.

it sounds like 'igger to me?

(fwiw i share an office with a half nigerean guy and a uk-ghanean woman, they think he said it but in the grand scheme of things dont think hes racist, just a dick)

were there any black people present in the film crew?
would he have even mumbled it if there were

its very much like the andy gray thing, the guy obviously has enemies, so this kind of stuff leaks out, im amazed it took 2 years to appear on the web!

its the constant drip drip of slurs from clarkson thats making this issue into a bigger incident than it is

Is it time for Doc Brown yet?

its the constant drip drip of slurs from clakrson thats making this issue into a bigger incident than it is

Exactly. If it was out of character it would be seen differently - as it is it's just part of a pattern of boorish bigotry.

Isn't Clarkson middle class and therefore.....

"Many a true word spoken in jest......."

Like Clarkson, perhaps prejudices slip out? 😉

[quote> http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2011/jan/05/censoring-mark-twain-n-word-unacceptable

I'm genuinely amazed that you can claim that a factual description of what someone said is the same as using a racist nursery rhyme on a light entertainment show in the first place.

Well there you go that just is what I'm getting at. JC may have used the N word in aged old rhyme, he didn't mean it as offensive but knew it could be seen as that. Oh forget it I'm genuinely amazed that you can't see he wasn't calling anyone the N word in the same ay you weren't but it's just easier not to use the word, which is why he mumbled. The outraged demand to be outraged.

He is higher up than that despite the facade

Landed gentry now iirc

THM - it was a reference to what Ernie said on another thread.

Well there you go that just is what I'm getting at.

When you said that newspapers don't use the word? 😕

Are you suggesting the nursery rhyme (which I've never even heard the racist version of until now BTW) is a work of art on the level of Mark Twain that should be celebrated/protected? (FWIW I think it's ridiculous to edit Mark Twain - before anyone starts)

I'm not even remotely 'outraged' or 'offended' - I just think Clarkson is a bellend and this is a tiny piece of extra evidence.

I'll put my hand up and say "yes" to thinking that Top Gear is pervasively racist. I don't know how much Clarkson and the other two presenters input into the script and other editorial decisions, so I don't feel informed enough to call how much of that might or might not originate from Clarkson specifically, but all three of them at the very least accept it by saying the lines.

you have to say it's a pretty much white only guest list on Top Gear out of about 210 guests since 2002 there only been 8 different black or asian faces. Sanjeev Bhaskar, Lionel Ritchie, Omid Djalili, Ian Wright, Les Ferdinand, lewis hamilton x2, Usain Bolt and Will I am (it was a quick browse through the wiki so I may have missed a few). Is that proof that Top gear is Racist, no, but it doesn't make a very good impression.

I'm not even remotely 'outraged' or 'offended' - I just think Clarkson is a bellend and this is a tiny piece of extra evidence.

So you didn't think it was racist either then. Well there you go.

Best not say black...

no...you'll get a 8 match ban if you do...

i'm not sure whether he is blatantly racist or whether he says things like this just to get a reaction from the public...be it good or bad.
there have been many times when he said something to offend people but then there have been moments when he seems to be the complete opposite...

i think James May summed him up perfectly when he described him as

He is a monumental bellend

he's one of those marmite people...either you hate him or like him...sometimes watching or listening to him is very cringe worthy but other times he is funny especially when he makes a dick of himself...usually unintentionally

i doubt he will get sacked from the show though...he makes them too much money and he knows this and it puts him in a pretty strong position..

but it's just easier not to use the word

I think we can read something into that decision as well given his past form on racial issues.

The easiest way to avoid this is to not say the rhyme or replace the word with teacher as they did when aired.

grum - Member

I'm not even remotely 'outraged' or 'offended'

Well that's a relief.

Carry on.

That's the rhyme as I've always known it and he deliberately mumbles through the word in a manner that shows he's a little embarrassed by it anyway.

Yes, I know the rhyme too, but I don't say it in public and still less on TV. He mumbled the word because he knew full well what he was doing - getting publicity and knowing the Beeb wouldn't have the balls to do anything about a top revenue sour saw

Its easier to use a different rhyme

I agree.

Like Grum I had never heard it so presumably within the vast arrays of talent there they could have picked something different yet they did not
WHY?

Ermmm! I don't know. Oh wait they did in the final cut.

Junkyard - lazarus

Like Grum I had never heard it so presumably within the vast arrays of talent there they could have picked something different yet they did not
WHY?

It is very old, it originates from a time when **** was not really an offensive word, and it undoubtedly predates Clarkson - it was never said in school playgrounds when he was a child, I'm sure of that. And TBH I think it was probably never said by children in Britain - I believe it is/was an American dipping rhyme .

I am younger than JC and British - can confirm that the rhyme in question was very common in playgrounds and elsewhere. Golliwogs toys and symbols were common place too.

Oddly/ironically/distastefully (you choose) Roberston's golliwog badges are now collectors items fetching over £1k a pop.

Was used when I was a kid I'm surprised others hadn't heard of that version.

There's a point. Those that hadn't heard of that version who then heard the video without the DM telling them what version he used, I wonder what they would have heard?

I am clarkson's age. Yes it was used in playgrounds when I was in them. Never heard ip dip dog.

Well I never heard it in my school THM. The word certainly wasn't acceptable even in a rhyme. And I've never understood the problem with golliwogs. Except that they were always naughty in the Noddy stories.

EDIT : Primary school in the 1960s in Clapham Park btw.

Heard the ip dip rhyme too.

Ddin't they try to change the name to Gollydolls instead but the image was still seen as too much?

Well he's a few years younger than me but it was in common use when I was a child.

All a bit reminiscent of the Major scene in Faulty Towers.

I'm amazed that some people used that version of eeney meany miney mo when at school - was there no supervision in your primary schools? And please don't tell me that it was deemed an acceptable word cause I can't believe that.

Don't be so PC ernie.

And please don't tell me that it was deemed an acceptable word cause I can't believe that.

Well you hadn't heard of it so you'll find it hard to believe now.

I can't remember that far back. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't've known what the word meant anyway.
My racist mum always used the golly word.

If people spent as much time and effort getting outraged about the real issues in the world and not trivial nonsense like this then the world would be a far better place.

Racism isn't a real issue?

Yes it is, and its a horrible horrible concept that make the lives of many thoroughly miserable.

But Jeremy Clarkson reciting a commonly known albeit inappropriate nursery rhyme, where he may or may not have muttered the N word is a world away from this

If you can't see the difference then I'm not going to try to explain it to you.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't've known what the word meant anyway.

I didn't have a clue what it meant and sure we thought it was a fish, no we didn't question why it had toes. 😕

I'm amazed that some people used that version of eeney meany miney mo when at school - was there no supervision in your primary schools?

You'd loved my church ran primary school. We had got told to stop playing armies when the Falklands kicked off, offcourse we didn't we just played cowboys and indians instead.

Even teachers used it...."deemed" perfectly acceptable at the time.

I even recall a friend's mother describing a hat as being "N Brown" in the 70s. We have come a long way since......

was that after doctors and nurses, drac? 😉

Well you hadn't heard of it so you'll find it hard to believe now.

I don't know what that's suppose to mean. The question I was asking was did you never play in earshot of teachers, would you not be punished for using the word ?

We're talking about 7/8 year olds not 14/15 year olds, right ?

And of course we knew/heard the word, and it wasn't acceptable.

The question I was asking was did you never play in earshot of teachers, would you not be punished for using the word ?

Yes and using it in the rhyme was fine but calling the black kid at school it would have had you severely punished. Fortunately we didn't know what the word meant in that context at that age so we didn't.

was that after doctors and nurses, drac?

Dear God no, that was for out of school.

Even teachers used it...."deemed" perfectly acceptable at the time

Even teachers used it...."deemed" perfectly acceptable at the time.

Where the **** did you go to school where teachers used the term ****......that's the word we're talking about, right ?

[i]but calling the black kid at school it would have had you severely punished. [/i]

We called him George.

We called him George.

Alex in our case or was it Alec? But yeah not the N word.

It was an "approved" school obviously.

The term was not used widely nor was it directly condoned. But that rhyme was certainly common place and used without sanction ([i]and in ignorance[/i]) without malice when chosing things.

Not defending it, just equally amazed that people find what was IME a common occurrence so surprising. Anyway we digress...

[i]Anyway we digress...[/i]

We'd have never got 200+ posts if we didn't 🙂

The term was not used widely nor was it directly condoned.

You said it was : [i]"deemed" perfectly acceptable at the time.[/i] Even by teachers !

Unless you went to school in the 1940s in Mississippi or something I find that extremely hard to believe.

Fine, don't believe me. But it was deemed a perfectly acceptable rhyme and adults used it as much as kids. Pls don't confuse rhyme and word used in isolation.

teamhurtmore is right. It was in common use. We were ignorant of any concept of racism. As I said before the only black faces I knew were coal miners until I went to the big city (Sheffield!) as a student. Oh wait, there were some. The Black and White Minstrels on the telly. I wonder what happened to them.

But no, it's not a rhyme or a word I would condone these days. Mind you it wasn't broadcast so no harm has been done has it?

I even recall a friend's mother describing a hat as being "N Brown" in the 70s. We have come a long way since......

Some people have...

adults used it as much as kids

That's not we're talking about is it ? Of course adults used it as much as kids. The question is did teachers use it as much children ? I don't recall ever hearing a teacher use it. It wasn't "deemed perfectly acceptable" as you suggest.

Mind you it wasn't broadcast so no harm has been done has it?

Is casual racism acceptable as long as it is not broadcast on television?

We were ignorant of any concept of racism

That's staggering. I have been aware of racism throughout my entire life. There's never been a time when people didn't understand the concept of racism. Just look at the struggle against fascism for proof of that.

Yes. But we had different experiences or recollections. It must be an age thing! 😉

Is casual racism acceptable as long as it is not broadcast on television?

The honest answer is that it depends on who it's aimed at.

"No" if it refers to dark skinned immigrants or children of recent (last fifty years) immigrants, and Jews.

"Totally fine" if it's directed at Roma, people from Eastern Europe generally, Muslims (when based specifically on religion rather than skin pigmentation or country of origin) or Gypsies and Travellers.

...in my experience.

Just look at the struggle against fascism for proof of that.

America fought against fascism, and yet had racial segregation. After the allies had taken Paris the new French government insisted no black soldiers took part in the celebration parades.

FFS using a nursery rhyme that was common place, is not racist in intent, nor as I inadvertently did recently because it suited the moment, using an expression you've used for years, it's at worse an error in judgement and at best a failure to notice the world has changed around you.

In that case derek why did he not just say it rather than deny saying the word, claim he never used the word, insist it was not broadcast and still apologise?

Its racist because he knew how offensive the word is when used lightly (not for historical or descriptive purposes) and yet chose to use it anyway, knowing full well that it could hurt certain ethnic groups. It shows complete contempt and disregard for those people, contempt which he has clearly shown for anyone who isnt a white middle class car driver.

Hang on. I've just heard what he said and the context.

WTF.

Especially the BBC - idiots.

I don't even know why hes apologizing. Makes it an issue out of nothing.

hora - Member
Hang on. I've just heard what he said and the context.

Careful hora, that is dangerous territory.....

[i]Makes it an issue out of nothing.[/i]

Yay, We're back to page 1 🙂

Its a non-event FFS. Is it slow news day, then the interviewees with some punters, one might as well as said I'm so angry but I dont know about what

[i]I don't even know why hes apologizing. Makes it an issue out of nothing.[/i]

Precisely !

I fear a lot of folk don't [i]get[/i] Clarkson and so inevitably become part of his [i]Joke[/i].

Carry on. Enjoy the bickering, and you get an extra day for it, this weekend.
🙄

I fear a lot of folk don't get Clarkson and so inevitably become part of his Joke.

Exactly

Solo - Member

I fear a lot of folk don't get Clarkson and so inevitably become part of his Joke.

I agree.

He refers to such people as his fans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe

Only a few of the earlier versions of this song used the n-word, why then is the song that he chose in of itself "not racist" and why did he feel the need to choose that version of the song?

I fear a lot of folk don't get Clarkson and so inevitably become part of his Joke.

He's not bloody Oscar Wilde.

7 pages of ranting about a word that wasn't used in a clip that wasn't aired in the context of finding it very hard to choose between two cars. It's ok not to like a public figure, but to try and manufacture a spurious allegation of racism against them simply dilutes the SNR in which genuine incidents exist and damages the cause.

And Stewart Lee's piece on Scotland and Willy Wallace is a showcase of brilliance in material, delivery, and guts! But he can seem very bitter and whiny sometimes, like in the piece on a "stolen joke".

We were ignorant of any concept of racism

That's staggering. I have been aware of racism throughout my entire life.

Even at 6mths or 1 year old? Impressive.

Maybe children these days are fully/more aware of it, but 20, 30, 40 yrs + ago I doubt they were (especially in some parts of the UK).

He's already guilty after using the term "slope", I don't care if he mumbled this word (sounded like the n word to me).

Remember this one?

In response to Campbell saying Clarkson wasn’t very sound on gay rights, Clarkson replied: ‘Oh yes I am. I demand the right not to be bummed.’