[Closed] Chronicles of Narnia

Very heavy, but the kids never seem to notice. I certainly didn't when i read hem and my kids now don't

I know it's there, how do you feel about the fact that it is?

i would say it is there, but as a kid it is actually quite well hidden. It comes across as the usual good v bad fairy story.

And because it is not obvious the problem is? I would say that any child who did pick up on it should have it explained fully to them. The implications what is it trying to tell etc. but i doubt many kids will ever realise until they to old to read the books.

Not bothered

I'm a committed and possibly even evangelical atheist, and I couldn't care less, I would expect most kids don't care either, None of mine like the Narnia books but that's because they are bored by them more than anything.

It's only really contentious if you push very hard to make it so.

Never noticed any hidden meaning. But then I don't go looking for them either.

It's a hellva lot less noticeable than Battlestar Galactica.

Which doesnt say a lot.

In fact, who cares, if you like the story.

The bible is a nice story too, dont think thats real either.

the kids never seem to notice. I certainly didn't when i read hem and my kids now don't

Likewise, I loved the books as a kid, read them multiple times [1] and never noticed at all. In fact when the film was being made and people started getting irie about it I was puzzled. I have read some of C.S.Lewis's adult stuff like the Screwtape letters which are far more openly Christian so I did know he was religious.

[1]only the Arthur Ransome books got more page views

You don't notice it as a kid typically, no.

I'm a little suspicious of it, after all you could view it as subversive.

Father Christmas giving Susan the magical Horn was always a source of much mirth amongst me and my brother, I seem to remember...

I'm a little suspicious of it, after all you could view it as subversive

Would you let a child read Animal Farm, Gulivers Travels, etc, alot of stories have a subtext. Even nursery rhymes are far from innocent.

It far more damaging to stop children reading the classics of literature for fear of 'subversion' IMO.

I didn't read my kids 'Animal Farm' as a bedtime story because it's vastly over-rated. Amost as shite as 'Of Mice and Men'

I would not give Animal Farm to a kid to be honest, since it'll be entirely lost. Plus it's not anti-communist, it's more a denouncement of the Russian Revolution I think.

For clarification, I'm not stopping anyone from reading anything. This thread is purely academic 🙂

[i]I didn't read my kids 'Animal Farm' as a bedtime story because it's vastly over-rated[/i]

By which literary critic?

[i]it's more a denouncement of the Russian Revolution I think. [/i]

it's a critique of "-isms" in general

From memory though it's very closely based on events on Russia isn't it? Don't the characters have direct equals in real life?

Yes, Soviet Russia is the obvious model for the book, but it's more about how wickedness, indifference, ignorance, greed destroy any possibility of good government.

I would have no issue reading it to a child, at their level it's a allegorical story of good and evil. Most children understand it pretty well, they see and understand how the pigs become bad, and sympathize with the other creatures.

Yep best off playing safe - read your kids H.P.Lovecraft instead ?

i would say it is better to make children read the bible than to say you must not, end of the day i may not believe much of what it says it explains some of the society in which we live, why things are the way they are.

Likewise there are many other books that may be "questionable" but it makes sense to read as they try and answer questions about life. I would say a parents role should be to explain not sensor. Obviously there has to be a limit, 5 year olds and 120 days of Sodom probably isn't a good idea, likewise Dantes Inferno, Dostoevsky Crime and Punishment, etc...

I never noticed any of it when I read it as a kid. TBH the christian parallels are obvious but it's not just a retelling of the cristian myths, there's some big differences too. A lot of it is drawn from pagan myths too.

Now how about the christian content of His Dark Materials then? That's more fun.

Who gives a poo about the Narnia films anyway? They're bloody awful by any standard. Why would you be letting your kids watch drivel like that when there are films like The Princess Bride and Charlie And The Chocolate Factory (original version of course) to watch?

The 'christian' aspect of these books is a bit of a myth. Modern Christians have tried to adopt CS Lewis as one of their own, desperate for a film or 2 they can let their kids watch 🙂 CS Lewis, like Tolkein, dabbled in christianity and other related beliefs. Their major books contain the grand archetypal myths of light, dark, good, evil etc, though they are actually far more Gnostic than modern christian. Lord of The Rings is almost pure gnostic.

BluePalomino: "Modern Christians have tried to adopt CS Lewis as one of their own"- He was raised christian, lapsed, but then converted/returned to the faith and was a practicing and devout Anglican til death. There's really no room for argument on this one

The 'christian' aspect of these books is a bit of a myth

have you read Lion witch Wardrobe??

Yes, Soviet Russia is the obvious model for the book, but it's more about how wickedness, indifference, ignorance, greed destroy any possibility of good government.

I would have no issue reading it to a child, at their level it's a allegorical story of good and evil. Most children understand it pretty well, they see and understand how the pigs become bad, and sympathize with the other creatures.

Absoutely. Children can easily be empathetic and have a basic critical awareness based on wanting to have a good life with other people they like. That's always got to be good. Not sure of any subtext in Narnia that might subvert children but the first film of the series (the only one I've seen) was a quite bland cookie cutter fantasy adventure. I'm sure loads of kids really enjoyed it though.

Oh, also: "The 'christian' aspect of these books is a bit of a myth."

Thank you wikipedia, here is the man himself apparently falling for the myth:

"Since Narnia is a world of Talking Beasts, I thought He [Christ] would become a Talking Beast there, as He became a man here. I pictured Him becoming a lion there because (a) the lion is supposed to be the king of beasts; (b) Christ is called "The Lion of Judah" in the Bible; (c) I'd been having strange dreams about lions when I began writing the work. The whole series works out like this.

The Magician's Nephew tells the Creation and how evil entered Narnia.
The Lion etc the Crucifixion and Resurrection.
Prince Caspian restoration of the true religion after corruption.
The Horse and His Boy the calling and conversion of a heathen.
The Voyage of the "Dawn Treader" the spiritual life (especially in Reepicheep).
The Silver Chair the continuing war with the powers of darkness
The Last Battle the coming of the Antichrist (the Ape), the end of the world and the Last Judgement"

He was raised christian, lapsed, but then converted/returned to the faith and was a practicing and devout Anglican til death. There's really no room for argument on this one

Actually there's lots of room for argument 🙂 - Lewis, like his friend Tolkein, drew on much deeper stuff than plain, boring 'modern christianity'. They weren't typical 'christians', they dabbled a lot in the esoteric & mystical edges of christianity. The mythology and symbolism in Narnia and Lord of The Rings is highly Gnostic in character. Christ (Aslan), crucifixion, resurrection, the demiurge (Jadis), the battle between light/right/good & dark/error/evil, quest & voyage for lost 'treasure', evil entering creation - these are all classic gnostic themes - which is of course where 'Christianity' got them in the first place 😉

I completely missed the xtian themes when I first read them as a kid too.
Looking back now, I can see the similarities with Aslan getting sacrificed, or Gandalf falling into the pit with the balrog, but it's just one fantasy story using elements from another.

MTQ - exactly! Christianity doesn't own the concept of sacrifice or any other theme and they nicked them from earlier myths/religions anyway. So your point actually highlights the fallacy in the orginal argument.

Aslan on the stone table, Jesus on the cross, Odin on the World Tree.
It's all variations on a theme.

I just watched Prince Caspian on telly, and the Christian message in that is pretty flippin strong, even more so than TL****W. The scene when they have to cross the river clearly says that if you trust in Aslan aka God then you will be looked after and everything will be okay.

If that's not proselytising then I don't know what is!

BluePalomino, that's all beside the point really. The fact that christianity took its core myths from older cults doesn't change the fact that Lewis was a devout christian and his books were largely inspired by that. It's not a matter for interpretation because he was so open and clear about it himself.

Themes of courage, empathy, unity and self-sacrifice seem quite subversive in our "modern" society 😉

Christian or not, Who cares? It has a positive message.

Christian or not, Who cares? It has a positive message.

And talking animals. Don't forget the talking animals!

😀

Doesnt Susan fail to get into Narnia (heaven) for being a slut?

🙂

Nah, basically for being a woman.

sounds pretty christian to me then 🙂

Nah. Lewis knew very well the gnostic christian origins of the mythology in Narnia. Just like his friend Tolkien. Neither were dumb.
They werent the stereotypical 'Christians' that the modern evangelical christian 'spin' likes to claim.

BluePalomino, that's all beside the point really. The fact that christianity took its core myths from older cults doesn't change the fact that Lewis was a devout christian and his books were largely inspired by that. It's not a matter for interpretation because he was so open and clear about it himself.

TBH as a 9 yeer old I missed all the Christian subtext as I devoured the books one by one. That is, until I came to 'The Last Battle' 😯
That one did freak me out- probably not one for 11 year olds really- fire brimstone and dressed up monkeys. Strange how no one has tried to adapt it for TV, doubt Disney will make a film of it somehow.

Anyone read 'Out of the Silent Planet' or Perelandra? Much stronger Christian themes there

BluePalomino - Member

"They werent the stereotypical 'Christians' that the modern evangelical christian 'spin' likes to claim."

Perhaps not but that's not what you were saying earlier is it? "Modern christians have tried to adopt him as one of their own". You can't dispute his christianity, it's absurd to try so there's no question that they're "adopting" him.

As far as the christian themes go, you're disagreeing with Lewis himself so good luck with that 😉

the reality is there are very few stories, it is all variations of a few themes. There are very few stories that are total fabrications, you rely on what you know to create an environment in which to develop the plot.

That Narnia has christian ideas is hardly shocking, i am sure with a bit of work you could probably twist the narrative and declare it contains Gilgamesh. As its a kids book i guess Oedipus might be harder to find but you could probably find a few parallels.

To go back to the OP

I don't believe and dislike proselyting. my parents are the same. I read and enjoyed the books as a child, I didn't find the christian stuff objectionable in any way.