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You can't brag about how powerful your car is, and how much better it is than everyone elses in the pub/on the forum if you get some training instead, can you?
That's probably the heart of the issue with regards remaps 🙂
PP you are basically agreeing with me I think.. in that if you can't drive within the limits of whatever car you have, you are dangerous - regardless of the bhp.
PP - I do my best to brag about IAM and cop training too... 😉 😆
Some powerful/braggy cars are cr4p too. REALLY cr4p.
My new neighbour has a Mustang...
😆My new neighbour has a Mustang...
Bet this doesn't need a re-map... 😆
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in that if you can't drive within the limits of whatever car you have, you are dangerous - regardless of the bhp.
You can be dangerous without ever getting anyhwere near any 'limit'. I fact most people who are, do exactly that IME.
It's about being better than you are. Improving. Learning a different way of driving that you're simply not aware of until someone tells you about it.
I can vividly remember having a one-to-one lesson where I was getting it all wrong. I was struggling with one aspect in particular. So the observer [u]walked[/u] me round a corner on this country lane we'd been using, and explained it, stage by stage: What to look at. Where to be. What was happening. What to do etc. And only when you understand it, when someone who knows what they're doing takes the time to help you understand it, can you go out and try it yourself. And in this instance I'm takling about maybe 40-ish mph in a 60 zone.
And there's absolutely no way somone with a laptop and a rolling road can help you with that. Knowledge is worth 3x the power under the bonnet. 🙂
Bigger brakes generally have better heat dissipation, they allow you to stop time after time consistently when the duty cycle on them is high.
That said some brakes have a better feel than others and allow you to get closer to locking up and hence most effective braking.
I know a few people who claim to have brake fade on the road, I am not that mad 🙂
Had plenty of issues with brake fade on my TVR on track though, but as you would imagine the duty cycle on the brakes in this situation is much higher.
If the 335d has the same brakes as the 135 petrol they are the same as the huge yellow 6 pot motor sport ones, great brakes 🙂
PP - agree entirely. Off to have a little sit down.
Tailgating, poor observation, poor road positioning, lack of concentration, etc, etc - all likely to get you in trouble and all done by the majority of drivers much of the time. Zilch to do with speed. But give these "average" drivers more power without any more control and things can get nastier more quickly.
Bazzer - I had brake fade in my old Saxo VTR when driving down the 21 hairpins from Alpe d'Huez. Most unsettling!
335d brakes are the same size as the 135i but don't use the same yellow calipers.
But give these "average" drivers more power without any more control and things can get nastier more quickly.
I normally think you get picked on a bit SM but that comment it total carp.
Someone chipping a 150BHP oil burner to 180BHP is not going to turn them into a moving death platform overnight. It really wont make that much difference.
The worst drivers in the world are the ones who think they are good and modern cars do a lot to fool people into thinking they are good drivers. That includes your BMW even though its a RWD drivers car its still a piece of p*ss to drive fast. I know I am not a driving god when I drive a 300BHP 500kg car with no electronics to stop me from crashing. It shows me my mistakes and makes me realise in the scheme of things I am very average.
But give these "average" drivers more power without any more control and things can get nastier more quickly.
They do them in black too 🙂
Bazzer - I do drive many other cars including the wifes lightweight RWD/4WD 1.3 litre 85bhp Jimny - which can actually be quite fun because you have to extract every single bhp from the engine while driving along with a fairly "lively" chassis that has a penchant for sliding it's rear wheels. Total opposite to the BM.
Yes you drive a near rocket on the track but we are talking about road cars on public highways here. Not track cars where crashing headlong into a truck/lampost/building is rather unlikely.
Turn to traction fully off on a 335d and then drive it fast... That's when it really comes alive.
Fine if you disagree about chipped cars needing better brakes but I don't think it's total cr4p. Just a difference of opinion.
Fine if you disagree about chipped cars needing better brakes but I don't think it's total cr4p. Just a difference of opinion.
I just think in the real world it does not make a lot of difference. If you are seeing brake fade on public roads in a modern car, its not the chip that's the problem its your head.
Changing the make/model of tyre on your car could make a bigger difference in my opinion !!
PS I do drive it on the road occasionally, then I take put it away until I forget how crap it is on the road again 🙂
Years ago i modified a 200sx, went from 170bhp to around 350bhp. I was waiting on the brakes calipers, i'd finished the work on the engine and the suspension so gave it a quick blast. That was an experience. I got to an indicated 150 before thinking about the lack of brakes.....
It suffered a lot of fade on track days, fitting bigger discs helped and i think this where uprated brakes come into play. Under repeated heavy braking, smaller brakes cant dissipate the heat quick enough. Manufactures may assumne that bigger engined cars travel higher speeds on average, so fit bigger discs to compensate.
I've chipped my current car Audi A2 (rolling road remap at stealth tuning)and its improved the overall drive no end. The engine was very peaky before, now it pulls better thoughout the rev range. Not felt the need to change brakes though, they are more than ample to stop the car quickly.
Power wise, the rolling road produced 78 bhp as standard, now 101bhp. Torque was 140 lb/ft to 205 ib/ft. In 3 years, ive had no issues with tyre wear, drivetrain etc. Not sure about the MPG, the car does nearly 70 to the gallon, it got alot worse due to a sticky brake pad, but i cant say its improved MPG any though. Fitting a taller 5 gear obviously made a big difference, which was possible due to the higher torque of the engine.
In fact, of the 4 or 6 cars that i've had "chipped" none have shown any problems. In fact the nissan above still gets ragged up and down goodwood, on 150k miles. Drivetrain is largely original, except the rear diff was changed to that from a S14, but only for longer ratio and LSD
Okay then smartar5e, you approach a roundabout from 60 in a car of the same weight with the same tyres but with better brakes than an equivalent car with weedier brakes and see what happens. If you skid you're a crap driver anyway - ABS or no ABS.
If the weedier brakes are 'good enough', improving them further makes no difference!
i've not driven a car produced in the last 10 years or so with inadequate brakes to stop from 60mph as quickly as the tyres can handle.
Sure, heat dissipation is better on bigger brakes, but you're talking about emergancy braking not track day driving!
Bazzer - fair enough. Nice to see someone who actually knows what their talking about (although I still disagree) rather than the usual suspects.
But yes, apart from maybe driving in the Alps, brake fade on public roads should not happen.
Clong - modest bhp ride in the A2 and I think the 200 is one car that can handle a lot of uprating without massive mods. Bet the 350bhp one was "interesting" in the wet?!
If the weedier brakes are 'good enough', improving them further makes no difference!
What's "good enough" then? I want to stop as quickly as I can whenever needed.
And there are a few modern cars with cr4p brakes. You carry on with your "just good enough" brakes. I'll stick to "very good" brakes. I should think the badger I just avoided a few weeks ago (40 to 0 in a very short distance) is grateful anyway!
Bazzer - fair enough. Nice to see someone who actually knows what their talking about (although I still disagree) rather than the usual suspects.
He's saying exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time 🙂
No he isn't.
Yes he is.
Aye, very interesting in the wet. I was using a T3 hybrid turbo, on a 1.8 engine it was very laggy. Coming out of a corner at 120+, sideways at full lock took some practice if you wanted to hold it on the throttle. At the time i did these mods, not many people did much with the 200sx so it was very much a suck it and see. The intercooler was from a Saab 9000, turbo from a cosworth. The end result was surprising to say the least, straight line accelaration was something else. On one track day, i hada right royal battle with some uber porche, he gained one hell of a lot of ground into the corners and through them but on the straights the nissain gained it back and then some. We got back to the paddok, my brakes were smoking so much the car vanished in the smoke. Porche driver pulls up, get out of his and throws his helmet on the ground, shouts "i cant believe i been beaten by F****** nissan" and storms off.
I saw a Civic type R's brakes catch on fire at Cadwell Park. It was so funny I said to the guy you need to throw a bucket of water on them, he said that he didnt want to warp the disks. Obviously happy for his car to catch on fire though 🙂
There comes a point where the brakes are no longer the limiting factor in how fast you can stop, and i'd bet good money 99% of cars are past this point (at legal speeds on public roads), and are limited by the grip of their tyres rather than the size of their brakes.
This is what i mean by brakes being 'good enough'.
I know a few people who claim to have brake fade on the road, I am not that mad
I've done it, once that I can remember, back in about 1992. I had a 1.0 Fiat Panda and this bloke in an MG Maestro comes hoofing past me on a (Wide but single carrigeway) ring road. (Round Colchester IIRC)
So at the roundabout it opens out into 2 lanes, and I decide to outbrake him and overtake. He passes me on the straight. I outbrake again, pass on the roundabout again. He overtakes me again. I do the same again, come into the roundabout on the inside lane, brake.....errr fek....nowt there! Oops! So I fly round the outside of him, unable to slow very much at all, sliding and screeching all over the place and going noticeably faster than the last twice I'd come past.
He didn't even try to overtake me again after that, oddly.......
I shat myself, but it was funny!
LOL one of the worst handling/braking but stupidly powerful cars was the MG Maestro Turbo. You could have a 1000BHP in a golf and it still would not be as bad 🙂
My mate had one at the time I had a Renault 21 turbo, the Renault may have had massive torque steer but at least it had brakes 🙂
PS Edited to add my R21 turbo was chipped/tuned to 250BHP one of the most fun cars I have owned, but that might be through rose tinted oakely's 🙂
Clong - a mate had an unmodded s14 -fun car but a bit odd looking!
I got utterly blasted off by a very modded s13 (found out later it had over 300bhp) when I had my R32 Golf - DOH! And before the hate Police jump in, it was off the lights and we both backed off once we hit the legal limit.
HH - would you want your car to be tested up to 70mph when designed and that's it? Would you want your tyres to "just grip enough" and your safety shell to be "just good enough?"
I wouldn't. I want everything to be just good enough plus a lot more.
Ah yes, my comments about brakes apply to modern cars!
We got an old MkIII Fiesta to help Mrs Grips get to grips with UK roads - it was an auto. She came back one day having had to make a slightly hurried stop (not quite emergency) on one bit of road and said that the car had skidded badly and she was worried about it. I went out to the same bit of road and braked hard (no cars around) and it did indeed skid.
However I realised that it was exactly how the MkII I learned to drive in handled, and it was normal for those crappy old cars!
We've come a looong way. The Ibiza I had had previously could stop so quickly it made my eyeballs feel like they were bulging out of my head, and that's without the ABS coming in.
Would you want your tyres to "just grip enough" and your safety shell to be "just good enough?"
Depends what you mean by good enough doesn't it? To me, good enough means able to stop extremely quickly, which all my cars can do.
I guess it comes down to whether you really believe you brakes are overwhelming your tyres. Most modern cars have quite a lot of rubber on the road these days.
My Leon FR is really just a warm hatch and has 225 tyres. In the dry on the rare occasion I've had to call on all the braking power it braked in a straight line without triggering the ABS and pulled up pretty quickly.
My brother has an EVO VIII with 235 tyres and big Brembo 4pots his brakes can have you literally hanging off the belts without really troubling the grip of the tyres at least in a straight line in the dry. The difference in retardation isn't down to 10mm of extra rubber on the road its down to the power of the brakes. If my Leon had these brakes I guarantee it would stop quicker
While I disagree that a chipped car will always need better brakes, tyres are definitely not the limiting factor to braking power in most cases
True about the tyres, hence my Ibiza experiences. However, when there's gravel/mud/water on the road it's a different story.
molgrips - Member
Bazzer - fair enough. Nice to see someone who actually knows what their talking about (although I still disagree) rather than the usual suspects.He's saying exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time
Me three.....
Surf-mat - you do have a way of coming over all 'I know everything, everyone else is an idiot' on threads like these and belittling others who's opinions don't match yours.
Then you come out with things like this:
I do drive many other cars including the wifes lightweight RWD/4WD 1.3 litre 85bhp Jimny - which can actually be quite fun because you have to extract every single bhp from the engine while driving along with a fairly "lively" [b]chassis that has a penchant for sliding it's rear wheels[/b].
and in my mind, all your holier-than-thou preaching and talk of advanced driving goes out the window. Especially after comments like this:
If you skid you're a crap driver anyway - ABS or no ABS.
So if I skid, I'm a crap driver, but if you drive so close to the limit of a bouncy 4x4 (which is quite frankly not the best tool for the job) that you are sliding it's rear wheels........what does that make you? Driving God? Stig-Wannabe?
You rubbished a comment I made earlier regarding marketing requirements, but speaking about this with a colleague earlier on who used to work in the car industry he reckoned that a customer intending to buy a more powerful car would expect more powerful feeling brakes whether they were 'needed' or not, so they would be fitted.
I would only be getting a remap to improve acceleration, particularly in-gear. So i still fail to see how a re-map would be a danger without improving the brakes if I still stick to 30 in a 30, 40 in a 40, 70 in a 70........the remap hasn't altered the stopping distance at those speeds. I am still able to judge corner entry speeds etc. and never drive on the limit of my cars performance anyway, so have plenty of headroom, whereas you driving your 1.3 Jimny with it's rear-end sliding about, eking every last horsepower have no headroom whatsoever......
205 Toyo Proxy T1 R tyres can be overcome with a set of standard Skoda Vrs brakes (probably similar to your Leon)
I am quite a progressive braker too, so I don't think its how I brake.
The suspension and how the car transfers its weight under braking will have a huge effect on how well a car is able to use its rear brakes. This is more to do with the height and position of the COG than how hard the suspension is etc.
PS Edited to add this would obviously not be true if tyres purely worked on friction. If that were the case wider tyres would not offer any more grip than narrow tyres. They work by deforming into the road surface providing a mechanical interlock, if that makes sense.
Edited to add this would obviously not be true if tyres purely worked on friction. If that were the case wider tyres would not offer any more grip than narrow tyres
Lost me there on the physics / mechanics 😯
I think he means that the relationship between pressure and friction is not linear...
Seems odd to me tuning a diesel! I still see a diesel engine for skint flints buses and trains! Blah di blah they have more lower torque etc etc. If it was power I was wanting I would rather have a petrol. I mean who would take a fast diesel BMW over an M3 or the same in the Audi or Merc etc. Diesel are great for saving on the fuel and towing but just cant see the point in boosting them up.
Also seems ood getting into some heated debate about brakes. I agree if I wanted more power I would want bigger brakes and better suspension. No brainer to me. If you are trying to turn a Tescos shopping car into something a bit more sporty then at least spalsh the cash! Or just get a proper sports car
I think he means that the relationship between pressure and friction is not linear..
Sort of, in a situation where only friction is stopping two surfaces sliding against each other, increasing the area of the surfaces does not increase the force required to slide the two surfaces over each other, because as you increase the area you decrease the pressure (force pressing them together) by the same amount.
So if I skid, I'm a crap driver, but if you drive so close to the limit of a bouncy 4x4 (which is quite frankly not the best tool for the job) that you are sliding it's rear wheels........what does that make you? Driving God? Stig-Wannabe?
You need to learn to seperate 'having fun' from 'crap driving' 🙂
At one quarry I used to work at, I found a corner coming off a stockpile where I could powerslide a 26tonne Volvo loading shovel fairly easily. Now, THATS 'not the best tool' eihter, but it sure is fun! 🙂
I would only be getting a remap to improve acceleration, particularly in-gear. So i still fail to see how a re-map would be a danger without improving the brakes if I still stick to 30 in a 30, 40 in a 40, 70 in a 70........the remap hasn't altered the stopping distance at those speeds. I am still able to judge corner entry speeds etc. and never drive on the limit of my cars performance anyway, so have plenty of headroom, whereas you driving your 1.3 Jimny with it's rear-end sliding about, eking every last horsepower have no headroom whatsoever......
What do you need 'improve(ed) acceleration' for?
I still see a diesel engine for skint flints buses and trains
Your loss then 🙂
The point with tuning diesels is that you can increase power loads but still not have to break the bank for fuel. The higher the power, the greater the difference in fuel economy between the two.
I had an old runabout 1.9 TD Passat with 75bhp. It was possible (with severe mods) to get 250bhp from that engine, apparently. You had to:
1) fit a massive turbo and intercooler
2) make sure you had the metal head gasket
3) swap the head bolts for studs
4) fit higher flow injectors
5) have the injector internals re-machined (equivalent to a remap on this thing)
6) fit a methanol injector to the intake
7) fit a huge downpipe to control EGT
8) be prepared for masses of smoke, and three skidmarks left on the road - the extra one being the stripe of soot left behind 🙂
Stumpy - you need to calm down. The Jimny has some weird rear diff that AT VERY LOW SPEEDS means the back end tends to skate about a bit. M MUM gets this in hers too. No way I'd drive it to it's limits of lateral grip. You just need to thrash the engine to get it going properly. Quite satisfying.
had an old runabout 1.9 TD Passat with 75bhp. It was possible (with severe mods) to get 250bhp from that engine, apparently. You had to:1) fit a massive turbo and intercooler
2) make sure you had the metal head gasket
3) swap the head bolts for studs
4) fit higher flow injectors
5) have the injector internals re-machined (equivalent to a remap on this thing)
6) fit a methanol injector to the intake
7) fit a huge downpipe to control EGT
be prepared for masses of smoke, and three skidmarks left on the road - the extra one being the stripe of soot left behind
Or, alternaively, just put a petrol engine in it.
LOL @ the 'skinflints, busses and trains' remark too. 🙂 My thoughts exactly, I was very happy to get rid of our oil burner. 🙂
Or, alternaively, just put a petrol engine in it.LOL @ the 'skinflints, busses and trains' remark too. My thoughts exactly, I was very happy to get rid of our oil burner.
Amen
But apparently there are people out there that prefer the way a diesel drives, economy is just a bonus, but that is another debate entirely
petrol engines arn't always the best option.
Take the BMW 320i v 320d for example, its widely acknowledged the 320d is better with the Diesel being both faster & more powerful...
I had my 120d M Sport done.
Not because i wanted to turn it in to a supercar, but it's nice to have that little extra grunt. Most of my driving is on country roads so the power comes in handy for overtaking. I upgraded the brakes at the same time...don't really think i had to but grooved and vented discs look nicer! The M Sport suspension is plenty good enough.
Seems odd to me tuning a diesel! I still see a diesel engine for skint flints buses and trains!
I used to think that, but the 1er puts as big a smile on my face from driving pleasure as my old e30 325sport and e30 318is ever did (and boy did i love those cars!).
Diesel tuning offers the best of all worlds and is relatively cheap, the only thing missing is the sound. My Fabia vRS has an FMIC, hybrid turbo, 3" turbo back exhaust, meth injection and that takes things from 130bhp/230lb/ft to 245bhp and 405lb/ft which makes it genuinely nippy, and capable of 55-60mpg. It's good for 0-60 in just under 6 seconds measured with a g-meter, and that's including two gear changes.
Wife has a 120d and I have driven mates 123d, 130i and 135i
The petrol cars are by far nicer cars to drive, but MPG is about half, 130i seemed to be the worst.
130i seemed to handle the best, but 135i was a rocket ship in a straight line.
But apparently there are people out there that prefer the way a diesel drives, economy is just a bonus
I know. Strange innit? I suppose there might be some expensive super-duper diesel cars out there that are pretty nice to drive, but all the ones I've ever driven (And that's a LOT!) have been a bit nasty in one way or another.
Sure, they do have their advantages. Our Vecrta was a great motorway car and did 45mpg. We bought it cheap in the first palce, and it was low milage and immaculate. A good deal. And at the time I was doing 20k miles a year, so it saved us some money. But in town it was a pig to drive. I've also driven the comparable diesel to our 1.6 Focus as well (It's my sisters car) and that was maybe a tad faster than our car, but again, just a bit nasty. Dead. Heavy. Understeery. Sluggish. Where our petrol engine is zippy, crisp and revvy, and noticably lighter up front.....