Isn’t your starting point is to have a chat with the childminder about how they’re planning to manage this change in their domestic circumstances, then evaluate whether that works for you and your children.
I’m a youth worker and Collie owner - our last one became the unofficial ‘team dog’, was a beautiful big gentle furry friend to lots of the kids, and I trusted her implicitly. She helped several of the kids I work with get over their fear of dogs, and several of them were genuinely upset when she passed away. Our new pup, at 11 months, is a proper wilful little madam at times, and not averse to grabbing my wife’s waistline chubby bits in her teeth if she’s not getting the attention she wants. I only bring her to work when I can supervise her, and she never gets out of my sight around the younger kids. The point being that dogs have their own characters, and what is true of one won’t be for another, even if they have the same owner and been trained much the same way. Collies are usually very intelligent, but definitely come across as being a bit ‘on the spectrum’, so if the childminder is used to dealing with children who are neurodiverse, she’ll probably get in fine with her new pup.
And so the once proud forum of STW completed its slow transition into Mumsnet.
Puppy pi**ing on the floor, nappies to change, children to toilet, bottoms to wipe. Sounds a nightmare.
Yup, I agree, it’s definitely not a job that I would want to do. But “how will she cope” doesn’t seem to be what is worrying the OP. It’s whether the dog will attack the children
It's all of the above really. I have concerns about it being a very energetic, intelligent breed that needs lots of walking, stimulation and training and how is it going to get that whilst she is running a full time childminding business on her own all day. She is being paid quite a lot to look after people children, not their dog after all. I know BCs get nippy and destructive when they get bored or don't get trained properly so one concern about its upbringing leads to another about its behaviour.
Do you know that they’re even going to be in the same room?
I can't see how they could be separated properly given the house layout unless the dog was shut upstairs all day. Plus, it couldn't be walked during the day unless it was taken out with the children. Hence my concerns above about lack of stimulation etc leading to a not well adjusted bitey dog.
You trust them with your kids, but not a dog?
I trust them with either kids or a dog, not both at the same time.
As above I can't see how it will get the needed attention when she is on her own the whole working day without impacting either the care of the dog or the care of the children.
If it’s raised with the kids as a pup then i wouldn’t have an issue, the pup will love the kids,
Our friends recently got a puppy. The first time the girls saw it it jumped up and knocked over our then 4 year old and was licking her face before it was caught. It terrified her as all she saw was teeth coming at her. No amount of reasoning has managed to convince her otherwise. It's now a well trained dog but that took a huge amount of effort and time from the owners and they weren't running a full time childminding business from their home. Our youngest still won't go near it despite our efforts to convince her otherwise.
A couple of interactions like this and seeing me bitten by a "friendly, he's never done that before" dog whilst out cycling with them seems to have set a deep rooted fear we are struggling to overcome.
I've almost got them ok with some of the very elderly dogs that go down to the park and am working back towards younger well trained dogs. Throwing a nippy puppy at them now is only going to reinforce their view of dogs, teeth, bite.
assuming she is above board etc and not doing this in the QT
She's OFSTED registered so I'll be asking for the risk assessment and what her plans are for looking after the children whilst raising/training a dog. I just wanted to understand if I was completely out of line before even raising it with her when they get back of holiday on Monday
And so the once proud forum of STW completed its slow transition into Mumsnet.
More like dadsnet. There's been a distinct lack of female representation around here in recent years
We have 2 collies they love attention, playing and tummy rubs. No aggression at all.
Very loving dogs and always been good with my son
I just wanted to understand if I was completely out of line before even raising it with her when they get back of holiday on Monday
I get the concern, but all you can do is raise and if you are not satisfied, take the kids elsewhere.
I do think that you and your kids anxieties around dogs needs looking at somehow. They are part of life, the kids need to know how to deal with them.
Just to be clear, I am not scared of dogs. I am careful around working dogs having worked on farms.
I am trying to get the kids less scared of dogs but it is a long slow process getting them.to.overcome their fear and I don't want them being 'nipped' which will not help with that.
Had a border collie growing up - she was the softest natured dog and wouldn't snap at you even if you stood on her, I was about 10 when we adopted her at 9 months old (due to being a failed working dog due to the soft nature) but my brother is a few years younger and whilst my parents did their best she was poked/pulled a lot and always was a super chill pup.
Parents got another collie 2 years ago - this one came from a house of about 10 children and whilst she's a little more manic/less chill she is incredibly loving (to the point she'll throw herself into your arms, can't not be involved in a hug and has to constantly get you gifts/toys) She also seems to have been carried a lot as a pup as absolutely loves being carried/held/picked up - whether its upside-down like a baby (tricky due to her size, upright under her belly!
UANBU, imo.
Valid concerns, regardless of breed.
If your kids are already scared of dogs, then it is wise to monitor which dogs they are being exposed to.
Speak to your CM, and depending on her reaction, make a decision then.
The breed is irrelevant, it’s all about how the dog is treated.
I come from a farm, and we let out a couple of stables to a guy who trained collies for other farmers, as well as having our own collies, and I’ve been round plenty of neighbouring farms too, we had a collie that got into a pen with 8 goslings, it killed them all, then hid them. Yet the same dog never bit, or nipped, or mouthed any human.
Fwiw, a collie in a loving home where the owner wanted it and spent the time with it I wouldn’t be worried, that puppy will view your kids as it’s pack. You’re more likely to be nipped than they are.
My great aunt was a cleaner for a neighbouring farmer, he had 2 collies, she was the only one who could go in the house, when the old fellow died, the police had to be called to shoot the poor dogs, they’d never been properly socialised.
I have 12 years until I retire, my retirement present to myself is gonna be an ebike and a BC.
I like the mentalness.
Speak to your CM.
She’s OFSTED registered so I’ll be asking for the risk assessment and what her plans are for looking after the children whilst raising/training a dog
Excellent plan...review risk assessment, get OFSTED involved, she gets closed down, you don't have a child minder.
Its a puppy, get the kids excited about it. They will love it and they will no longer be scared of dogs. Lots of win imo.
I think you’re being unreasonable. It’s a dog not a tiger, they’re pretty common. Anyway, isn’t there a distinct chance your kids will totally love it after like 3 days or something.
Border Collies are so intelligent, but ime don't make good pets.
There are exceptions, but again, ime, that only happens when they have owners who have lots of experience with the breed and dogs in general.
We've had quite a few in the family and some have been great with kids, but some have been jealous and frankly unpleasant to be around.
Excellent plan…review risk assessment, get OFSTED involved, she gets closed down, you don’t have a child minder.
Someone asked if she was registered. I was confirming she is. At no point have I said I was going to report her to ofsted or get them shut down.
So you think asking how she has risk assessed this or how she is going to deal with a dog whilst looking after numerous kids is wrong??!
Its a puppy, get the kids excited about it. They will love it and they will no longer be scared of dogs. Lots of win imo
Alternatively, kids are anxious about dogs already having been nipped by pups,dogs. Kids get nipped again as 'thats what puppys do' which reinforces their view of dogs completely undoing any progress I've made over the last couple of years trying yo make them less scared of dogs.
Everyone loses.
I’d be wary just because a lot of people seem to be getting dogs at the moment and doing literally no training or anything. Seem to be an increasing number of them out of control when out and about.
I thought one was attacking my two kids, sunk it’s teeth into something and started shaking it’s head side to side. Fortunately it was just my two year olds soft toy she was holding, but I had no idea at the time. Kids starts screaming, dog gets excited, all got out of control v quickly.
Hooray. Descending again into another 'give me some advice', 'No not that advice' thread.
Sounds like your mind is made up and unless you can persuade the CM to cancel their puppy order, then you have to move your kids
Close thread.
You're very angry about this. Are you a border collie yourself?
You trust them with your kids, but not a dog?
The kids don't live with the childminder. HTH.
OP is not being unreasonable.
Asking to see the risk assessment from a part time childminder is a bit odd. Asking how they want to handle keeping the dog-averse kid separate from the untrained dog is totally reasonable and what a grown-up would do.
You know,
Unreasonable or not is neither here nor there. You have concerns, even if they are unreasonable ones they're still concerns, so the grown-up thing to do would be to talk to her and say "I have concerns," then see how she responds. If the kids are genuinely scared of dogs then at the very least she needs to be made aware of that.
At the moment it looks like you're operating mostly on assumption and guesswork. You need to apply the Four Fs rule - First Find the Facts.
Also,
There are ways of managing the issues you're raising. Maybe a neighbour or a hitherto unmentioned boyfriend is walking the dog. Maybe it is going to be shut upstairs.
My partner's daughter has a boy just turned one, and a two-year old Staffy with a puppy brain and the body of a full-grown dog. When it's nappy-change time the dog gets locked in his crate out of the way.
You know,
Unreasonable or not is neither here nor there. You have concerns, even if they are unreasonable ones they’re still concerns, so the grown-up thing to do would be to talk to her and say “I have concerns,” then see how she responds. If the kids are genuinely scared of dogs then at the very least she needs to be made aware of that.
At the moment it looks like you’re operating mostly on assumption and guesswork. You need to apply the Four Fs rule – First Find the Facts.
Jus got to agree with that 100%.
If its a puppy then theres likely to be no problems, and probably good for both parties. Dog gets use to screaming excitable kids, kids get used to being int he company of a dog.
But yes all dogs somewhere down the line have attacked, killed, injured everyone from babies,kids,adults and anyone suggesting that its the owners fault, or improper training or whatever miss the point completely. Yes dogs can be dangerous.
Sounds like your mind is made up and unless you can persuade the CM to cancel their puppy order, then you have to move your kids
Close thread.
Not really. The sensible advice was to speak to her and ask their intentions which is what I've said I'll do when they are back on Monday. The outcome of that discussion will determine what we do next.
The comments saying it'll all be great, don't worry, and the kids will think it's great and love the dog are so far off the mark. After reading the newsletter it was announced in they are already worried about going next week and asking what will happen. If you have any useful advice on how address the fear of 2 young children other than just telling they are wrong and that they'll think it's wonderful then I'll listen to that too.
If you have any useful advice on how address the fear of 2 young children other than just telling they are wrong and that they’ll think it’s wonderful then I’ll listen to that too.
Well for a start
The comments saying it’ll all be great, don’t worry, and the kids will think it’s great and love the dog are so far off the mark
already shows your mindset. How can they be wide of the mark, it hasn't happened yet, and yet we're all wrong in our predictions? They might not think it's great now, they might with some justification be worried about it. Your job as a parent is to not pander to those perceptions, rather to manage them. But your language suggests you have already decided how it's going to go.
So, you said any useful advice.
1/ Talk to the childminder, see what their plans are and explain your kid's concerns. Do it out of earshot, just you saying they have concerns validate them further.
2/ Explain to the kids that puppies are not really biting, it's part of puppy play in the same way that a baby will scratch or pull hair if it can. They need to learn not to do it.
3/ Even as a 4yo, they can do this. If the puppy starts nipping at hands, take them away. Fold arms, put them under armpits and withdraw attention. Get them to stand up and turn back / ignore the puppy.
4/ Trying to grab feet and ankles is the same, a puppy doesn't know difference between hands and feet, they're just toys to chase. If it tries to grab feet, stand still, toys that don't play back quickly get boring.
5/ A puppy understands 'OW!' - that's what its litter mates would do if play got too rough, they'd squeal and stop playing. Maybe with the CM teach the word they're going to use for no - might be NO! or OFF! or whatever, but puppy will learn and learn fast.
6/ Give it time, and a chance. You can always move them after, but as they've been there for years sounds like they have a good relationship with the CM and moving is a last resort. Ask them to give the puppy a chance.
My concerns, and I'll be honest here.
7/ I'm not entirely trusting of BC's, although others MMV. But it's a puppy, not a full grown dog, so irrelevant at this point.
8/ The CM needs to make sure all the kids follow the same routines - consistency is the key to getting the results she wants so it's in their interest to manage that, but will other parents of more robust kids be as supportive, and let them treat the pup as a toy.
My work colleague and his wife have a BC and two young sons aged 3yrs and 7months.
I'm a dog owner myself and know that Penny is a beautiful, placid, well mannered, highly intelligent dog that has never shown anything but love to the boys. It is a result of and reflects their household though.
Maybe your child minder wants the peace and serenity that being out in nature with a dog brings after a day of looking after children?
It would be completely unreasonable of you to try to control how the childminder lives their personal life, including pet ownership.
It is however completely reasonable to discuss with them the matter of your dog-averse children and how they will be accommodated in an environment potentially containing an untrained dog (that may also be demanding attention from the childminder). And if you're not happy with the situation, move.
I would be looking for the possibility of a positive outcome whereby your children are looked after in a safe environment with the potential for carefully controlled interaction with a well-behaved adorable puppy that will help to overcome their fears. Being able to cope with other peoples' dogs is a skill that's worth developing.
If you have any useful advice on how address the fear of 2 young children other than just telling they are wrong and that they’ll think it’s wonderful then I’ll listen to that too.
Buy them a puppy of their own. 😁
Honestly, what you're describing here is borderline phobia. I'm no expert on such things but there are tested and true means of tackling phobias. Introduce them to Known Good dogs maybe, or have a wander round somewhere selling puppies? I don't know.
With young kids though I reckon I'd be trying to address it early rather than avoiding it and letting it develop into a potentially lifelong problem. Dogs exist, they're going to have to get used to that. You're going to have to get used to that.
A lot of knee-jerk responses about the childminder being free to live their life and it's none of OPs business if they get a dog.
That's BS.
A registered childminder is taking your child into their home and has a strict code of conduct they're supposed to follow, which includes who else is in the house, for obvious reasons. It also covers pets, so any changes to that are supposed to be discussed with parents in advance.
If you're paying for x goods then someone can't just give you y goods without notification.
someone can’t just give you y goods without notification.
That's the only issue as far as I can see - lack of sufficient notification. If that's what has happened, which appears to be the case.
All the other stuff is neither here nor there imo.
Fair comments. But does that give the client the right to tell the provider that they won't be removing their child from the childminders, and therefore the CM can't have a dog? I think not, in the end the CM is free to decide if they're going to have a dog, and everyone else is free to decide if they are happy to have their kids at a dog owning CM.
For sure the CM should have communicated better / earlier, and needs to ensure there are new and appropriate procedures and risk assessments for how the kids and dog will have contact. But that's as far as the OP's 'rights' go as far as I can see, other than the ultimate right of customers.
@jonm81 sounds like you're taking the reasonable route. I can relate to people with phobias (this definitely sounds like a phobia) as my sister in law is not good round dogs so can appreciate how you are anxious about your daughters (and their anxiety). Best of luck whatever way you go, it's not easy to undo these things .
But yes all dogs somewhere down the line have attacked, killed, injured everyone from babies,kids,adults and anyone suggesting that its the owners fault, or improper training or whatever miss the point completely.
Which is what? Because aside from an owner taking reasonable precautions in one way or another to prevent their dog hurting others I'm a bit lost as to what the point is. Untrained/feral animals acting like untrained/feral animals isn't news.
How can they be wide of the mark, it hasn’t happened yet, and yet we’re all wrong in our predictions?
Maybe OP knows OP's kids better than you do? Just an idea.
I would be, they’re proper little bastards, they bite and don’t let go.
Yep, mines a murderous little sod. Just about the softest dog you’ll ever meet.
Yep, mines a murderous little sod. Just about the softest dog you’ll ever meet.
Just going from anecdotal evidence as everyone else seems to be, mate works in A&E and has lost count how many dachshund bites she's had to stitch up vs any other breed. Like a lot of small dogs they can suffer from small bastard syndrome if you let them.
They can, admittedly be, but like everyone has said on here it helps bringing them up right. Ours was socialised with lots of other dogs from an early age, and lots of young kids.
If anything ours is too trusting and wants to jump up and greet everyone. Tried training it out of him but he just likes people too much.
Yep, mines a murderous little sod
Looks like you’re having to stand on the chair to get away from him!
How can they be wide of the mark, it hasn’t happened yet, and yet we’re all wrong in our predictions?
Because based on previous experiences, rightly or wrongly, my kids are frightened of dogs. That is not going to change overnight and I do not want my kids or anyone elses sitting in fear in a setting that is supposed to be a managed safe place for them until/if they get used to the situation.
I have been working to get them used to dogs through contact with very placid, elderly dogs we know well. They are still nervous around those ones but slowly getting better. Throwing an excitable puppy (and all puppies are excitable) into the safe space is what turns manageable fear into phobias. I don't want them to get to that point.
If the childminder has done a risk assessment and has procedures in place then fine but given there has been zero communication about getting said dog then I will have to see on Monday if they have even considered their safety obligations or customers.
Several of the other parents have similar concerns and are also going to be seeking assurances that the dog will be properly managed and/or kept away from their kids if it causes a problem or the kids will be removed.
They are free to get a dog if they want and I have no intention to tell them they can't but as a lot of the parents have said they'd leave if it's not managed properly and it scares/nips/bites the kids then it is their choice as to whether to keep a dog or maintain a business.
there has been zero communication about getting said dog
Thought you said it was in a newsletter?
OK, last word from me then. So you come on and ask for advice, it gets given. People suggest that it's an ideal chance for the kids to experience it and there's a very good chance that while there will likely be a hump to get over, it'll be good for the kids in the longer term.
You say that it won't happen because x, y, z, and you're not prepared to use this opportunity for exposure "sitting in fear in a setting that is supposed to be a managed safe place for them until/if they get used to the situation" How's that going to happen unless you expose them to it?
And others join in with you knowing your kids better than me which is clearly true, but misses the point.
I even spent time writing a long post full of how to approach, that both you and PCA have ignored and just argued against a statement that is factually true. You're predicting how this will turn out as a fact, when you can't know because it hasn't happened yet.
My final parenting advice, of a generally well adjusted 17 and 19 year old. Including the younger one that wanted a dog but was very wary of the play nipping initially, and wanted it sent away. Stop wrapping them in cotton wool, this is a chance for them to learn how to overcome their fear of dogs. Your approach will set the tone as much as the childminders.
Seems a sensible approach OP. Would suggest you also ask the childminder about their previous experience with dogs. Might put you more at ease, or at least inform your decision as to whether to keep your kids there.
I understand your concerns although I think they are slightly unfounded
Speak to the child minder. If not happy after that find another one. It’s not your decision about what dog they get. It is your decision whether you want to employ their services in future
I personally think that it would be good for them, certainly in the long run. Let’s be brutally honest here, no child has ever been mauled to death by a 10 week old collie pup. And growing up with a fear of dogs isn’t a healthy thing for a kid.
if you aren’t happy with the situation, find another child minder and do it quietly before the other parents who aren’t happy with the situation start looking
Crumbs^
We don't know if the purchase of the puppy was a considered decision. If it was then surely parents should have been informed as soon as a date was arranged for puppy to join the CM's family. Common courtesy and would have given parents time to ask q's or express their concern. We don't know the background of the puppy ie was it from a reputable breeder? Show or working stock? Does the CM have previous experience with this breed? Was the breeder made aware that the woman was a CM and ran a business? Any decent breeder with a good reputation would have done due diligence surely?
Put the issue of the OP's children being nervous around dogs to one side. See the bigger picture.
Thought you said it was in a newsletter?
I'm sure you understood but to spell it out there was zero communication about getting a dog prior to the "we now have a dog" in the news letter.
Whilst I agree that Common courtesy would have been to tell the op before hand, the circumstances of how they acquired it can be established when the OP speaks to the CM. That’s the time to establish the ‘bigger picture’ if they have concerns. (ideally the time for that was prior to them getting the hound but that’s clearly now passed)
Ultimately, the OP doesn’t have any right to dictate how the CM acquired the hound. And that would still be true even if they’d been informed prior to them getting it. If however they have concerns about it after speaking to the CM they can find another CM.