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Fame is an interesting one, can you name another League 2 player? Me neither. Let not think he's going to play in the premier league in front of 40k people each week earning £100k per week, he's not. He's signing for Oldham in league 2, they'll get 1500 fans a week at a guess, he'll earn in the region of £1k per week at a guess.
Edit, Jimjam, fair but as it's not a core part of a footballers job I'm sure he could be removed from thus duty.
As noted it i s unlikely he will ever be doing the community work and he may be spotted were he to try.
As for the anoymous fisherman who recognises him ?
Fame is an interesting one, can you name another League 2 player? Me neither. Let not think he's going to play in the premier league in front of 40k people each week earning £100k per week, he's not. He's signing for Oldham in league 2, they'll get 1500 fans a week at a guess, he'll earn in the region of £1k per week at a guess.
But you're just focusing on one individual?! My only statement that was that there is an argument for footballers not to be able to return to work after a conviction of sexual assault, like say the education sector.
It's pretty obvious that in future, the same crime could be committed by somebody who is very famous and is a household name.
Or, again very obvious in my opinion, a footballer could be league 2 at the time of conviction and a premier league star five or ten years later.
I've already stated that I think Evans should be able to return to work.
Hmmm, oak or fir, I wonder?
DugganBut in his case, the judicial system has decided that he is able to return to his job. So for me, the only relevant apparatus able to take such a complex decision has already spoken.
There are doubtless plenty of jobs where you can't return to work after such a conviction. But it's been decided that his isn't one of them by the very judicial system that we devised to make these decisions.
The judicial system has said he can go back to work, but his previous employers had the option to employ him or not. What outraged so many people (most of whom would automatically forfeit their jobs and their careers after such a conviction) was that not not only had his club never considered sacking him, they were actually paying him while he was incarcerated.
Consider Rolf Harris or Dave Lee Travis. When they've served their time should they be allowed back into their old jobs?
Duggan wrote - Why not football? It probably should be- so in this case, we should aim to amend the legal system to include football as such a job where you cannot play if convicted of sexual assault. But we can surely only expect Evans to be treated as per the law in force at the time.
Good point, well made. I can't argue with your logic here mate.
As noted it i s unlikely he will ever be doing the community work and he may be spotted were he to try.
As for the anoymous fisherman who recognises him ?
Nobody, which is why he would be able to return to work?
Please note I've already stated that I think Ched Evans should be able to return to work.
Graham Rix was able to return to football management after he was released from prison, however the FA banned him from working with your players under 16. Something similar could be done with Evans if he was considered a risk.
He had that overturned . by the FA, on appeal FWIW
so if the sex offender cannot be recognised its safer for him to go to work?
A footballer may not come into contact with vulnerable people as part of their job but surely their famous status and natural position as a role model makes them far more of a threat to vulnerable people than say, a fisherman?
I disagree his notoriety means he is less of a threat as everyone knows who he is and what he has done
Sorry if i was unclear in making this point.
Junkyard- interesting, never thought of it from that angle, though I'm not sure I agree.
I'm going to leave this one here now anyway, final thought below.
Regardless of whether footballers should be able to play after such a conviction, I think there is a debate to be had here and that those who are angry re: the Ched Evans case should direct their energy at the legal framework as we've discussed above and not at an individual imo.
I wonder how broadcasters feel....despite all the saville stuff they will still be broadcasting and paying an unrepentant rapist.
Very odd.
I wonder how broadcasters feel....despite all the saville stuff they will still be broadcasting and paying an unrepentant rapist.
Probably not worth worrying about their feelings until they stop playing Roman Polanski movies.
I wonder how broadcasters feel....despite all the saville stuff they will still be broadcasting and paying an unrepentant rapist.
Very odd.
It's a confused situation though because effectively what the jury found is that at the moment Evans walked into the room McDonald and the victim were engaged in consentual sex, but on Evans asking if he could have sex with her too (and getting told yes) that sex was non consentual and therefore rape.
Yep I think more people should read the court paper on it....
its actually a surprisingly short read and tbh I'd be very worried about going to court for anything vaguely sex related.
Do we think convicted criminals should be allowed to work or not? My answer would be yes. What we think of him and what that job is is largely irrelevant. The guy is probably a vile human being but we don't get to choose who we like and don't like and arbitrarily apply special rules to them
The main problem here is the idea that footballers are supposed to be role models.
What we think of him and what that job is is largely irrelevant. The guy is probably a vile human being but we don't get to choose who we like and don't like and arbitrarily apply special rules to them
It's not irrelevant at all. Which is why we arbitrarily apply rules to sex offenders.
It's not irrelevant at all. Which is why we arbitrarily apply rules to sex offenders.
That's different and not arbitrary - rules apply to sex offenders to prevent them working with vulnerable people etc. I don't see how that applies in this case.
And that's a decision for the relevant authorities/employers not the newspapers/the mob.
its actually a surprisingly short read and tbh I'd be very worried about going to court for anything vaguely sex related.
Ched Evans' situation is significantly worse because he shows no remorse. Thing is, I'm not convinced he's guilty. Guilty of being involved in a sleazy incident, probably not a nice person, but rape.....Rape cases like this are torrid affairs.
Damn copy and paste glitch...
In the case of football clubs, it's also for supporters (call them customers if we must) and sponsors to decide. Clearly, lots of supporters of the clubs for which he's been a prospective signing have decided they don't want to cheer Evans, and presumably see their ticket money paying his wages.
In the case of football clubs, it's also for supporters (call them customers if we must) and sponsors to decide. Clearly, lots of supporters of the clubs for which he's been a prospective signing have decided they don't want to cheer Evans, and presumably see their ticket money paying his wages.
OK, that's their right I suppose - but is it just sex offences that are considered unacceptable? Would we see the same level of outrage if he'd killed someone drink-driving or speeding for instance? I suspect not.
I just think you're on slightly dodgy ground when you start trying to make moral judgements about people based on what you've read about them in newspapers.
I just think you're on slightly dodgy ground when you start trying to make moral judgements about people based on what you've read about them in newspapers.
I'll assume you mean "one is on slightly dodgy ground" rather than me, as I've read little about Evans in newspapers (I have, however, read some opinion pieces by commentators whose opinions I might respect) but most of what I know about him I've gleaned from the court stuff available to read. I'm quite comfortable making moral judgements about the likes of Ched Evans. And I also think he should be treated differently as a rapist - as society generally deals differently with sex offenders, even after they've served their time (which of course, Evans hasn't yet). Many fans of these clubs are women, plenty of young women, and I'd hazard, some who'll have been a victim of rape and not have been or felt able to do much about it. Who knows how they'd feel listening to the chants (accepting JY's earlier comments that the chants aren't necessarily his fault)?
I guess I'm just trying to explain why I feel this case isn't just a simple returning-to-work-after-jail thing, as bleeding heart liberal as I am, believing that very few are beyond redemption. My one conflict about Evans is, while I don't want to see him play football, he's never going to be able to self-impose a level of anonymity to do any other work now. The clubs, whether they like it or not, have to take into account their supporters' views, their sponsors' views and the views of the sizeable chunk of the general population who are morally outraged by this. I'm no fan of moral outrage in general, but I'm cool with men and women being a bit outraged about rape.
As for the other crimes, I dunno tbh. What ever happened with the Plymouth Argyle keeper? I think he went back to work for them didn't he? But I can't remember if he displayed contrition or not afterwards. My opinion on Evans' "right" to work as a footballer is based as much on his actions (or lack thereof) subsequent to his release.
I think it's a bit hypocritical the whole mob justice thing going on over this. We don't see it for footballers when they're done for drink driving or assaulting people yet this IMO isn't acceptable behaviour for role models to be showing.
He's served the time given him by the courts so he should have every right to seek employment. If someone chooses to employ him it's not up to mob justice to see that they don't.
He's served the time
😆
How many more times...??
I'll assume you mean "one is on slightly dodgy ground" rather than me
Yup.
Many fans of these clubs are women, plenty of young women, and I'd hazard, some who'll have been a victim of rape and not have been or felt able to do much about it. Who knows how they'd feel listening to the chants (accepting JY's earlier comments that the chants aren't necessarily his fault)?
That's an appalling scenario but isn't that a football/football fans problem? I can see where you're coming from but I still think it's dodgy to say he shouldn't be allowed to play football.
My one conflict about Evans is, while I don't want to see him play football, he's never going to be able to self-impose a level of anonymity to do any other work now.
This is the thing - what work should he do if not football? I'm not sure if it applies exactly in this scenario but I believe in general criminals are more likely to reoffend if they are marginalised/unemployed etc.
I wonder if all the general public who are condemning him will be able to apologise to him if the Criminal cases review commission process ends up finding him not guilty ultimately? It's interesting that he gets a lot of stick for never admitting guilt or apologising as he believes he is innocent, yet I wonder if they will behave just like he did?
Yes Deadly, it's been said loads already in the thread but that's ultimately what it boils down to. As a criminal he's served his punishment handed out to him by the courts.
The real reason that there is such a public outcry about the whole thing IMO is due to the fact he's a footballer. If he was Joe Blogs down the road, 99% of these outraged people calling for him not to be offered a job wouldn't be shouting about it and signing petitions. They'd most likely just see the headline on the news, have a quick look but largely ignore it.
That's an appalling scenario but isn't that a football/football fans problem? I can see where you're coming from but I still think it's dodgy.
Yes, it is a football problem and while I'd like to think we could trust fans to behave, I think we all know certain sections of home fans will sing vile stuff and Jesus only knows what will be sung at him when he plays away (see what I did there?). Yes, I realise that it's not his fault it's being sung, but the chants will be an indirect result of his actions. We have to listen to vile enough stuff being chanted at football games as it is, but this would be too far...only IMO though.
So, yeah, I see where you're coming from, and you have more experience of working with offenders than I ever will - your point about them offending when marginalised is strong and one I couldn't counter. I still think this is a special case...because of lots of different factors complicating the time served (WHICH HE HASN'T 🙂 ), rehabilitation, re-entry into society equation.
FWIW I have a lot of sympathy with DD position crimes like this are more than just normal crimes and the chants will be a serious low point for football and for humanity both "pro" and anti.
However he has the right to return to work and my options are to accept this or try to change law.
I am not sure hounding sex offenders [ or any criminal] helps them or society.
Some of the "support" for him has been shameful.
Proving whether it was rape is so difficult in these cases. Interesting link provided earlier regarding the case which referred to her being drunk but probably not suffering memory loss as claimed.
Odd version of moral relativism.
The "special" nature of football is odd, especially as we have one ex player who has been convicted of various assaults including of a 15 year who is now a TV celebrity. Ultimate +1.
What happens if he gets found not guilty on appeal? Will everyone finally put it to bed and let the guy get on with his life.
I love the phrase "moral relativism" and also use it when I don't want to or can't make a point. It's like "derivative" in music/movie threads.
Will everyone finally put it to bed and let the guy get on with his life.
I can think of one person who might struggle with that.
What happens if he gets found not guilty on appeal? Will everyone finally put it to bed and let the guy get on with his life.
Yes but i thought he did appeal and wasn't acquitted.
Basically while it's only fair that offenders are allowed to return to their jobs Evan's prospective employers are in a publicity fuelled industry and have a commercial decision to make, will the damage to the club of emp[loying a convicted rapist be offset by his contribution to the clubs success. Unfortuneately Oldham seem have to decided that avoiding relegation trumps losing some fans from the backlash of signing him. If he scores goals most of the reamining fans will 'forgive' him. 😐
Evans, if he truly believes he is innocent, should have waited until the outcome of the Criminal Case Review before he started trying to get back into football. At the moment he is still legally a convicted rapist and therefore should accept the implications of that status. He should also have kept his head beneath the parapet - instead he has been complicit in the activities of his 'friends' and families in the on-going persecution of his victim. He has not come out and publicly told them to stop their campaign. On the radio yesterday it was stated that the website his campaign uses is registered to his address.
People on here should not be making judgements on what happened in the court case and the verdict unless they have fully read all the evidence before the court. There are also thousands of criminals who will claim they are innocent, and until substantive evidence to prove otherwise in a court of law Evans is guilty.
Most of us on here would not be able to return to our jobs if we were found guilty of such a crime. Indeed many on here were probably applauding Hargreaves Lansdown for sacking the guy who made the stupid tweet about running over a cyclist yesterday. If Evans had waited until after the Criminal Case Review Board and was found not guilty, had kept a low profile and had not been complicit in the campaign against the victim, he could have returned to a footballing career with impunity (although many would rightly criticise his degrading and sordid behaviour of getting a taxi to join his mate having sex with a very drunk women whilst other mates filmed it).
If the Criminal Case Review Board finds no evidence to change the conviction, and if Oldham Athletic sign him, I hope that the commercial outfall ends with the club going into bankruptcy and expelled from the league. I feel sorry for the genuine fans of the club who are powerless as their directors pull the pin from the commercial hand grenade!
I'm going to say this again, football is the perfect work place for him, in the public eye and not able to slip into the shadows. He, and most other footballers, should be not considered role models, the press seem to think they are, I suspect most parents would not agree with this.
It's also worth remembering he's going back to playing in league 2, can anyone name another league 2 player? They're not famous at that level, they're watched by 3 or 4 thousand people per week, it's not the premier league. They're also not phenomenally well paid, average wage in League 2 last year was £1300 per week, a good amount but not sky high, I would imagine Evans will be getting somewhat less than that as well as he's not exactly in demand at the moment.
Yes, he's a scum bag, but he's a scum bag with a legal right to work and football is a very good place for him to do so.
Yes but i thought he did appeal and wasn't acquitted.
His request to appeal was turned down (i.e. there hasn't yet been an appeal). That request doesn't itself question the verdict from the jury but looks at factors like whether the guidance given by the judge was correct and lawful and also if any new evidence had come to light.
The case is currently being reviewed by the Criminal Case Review Commission and I think that'll be considering if there has been a possible miscarriage of justice.
Evans, if he truly believes he is innocent, should have waited until the outcome of the Criminal Case Review before he started trying to get back into football.
Normal timescales for that are 18 months and his case would normally been a low priority as he'd already been released, so that might have been a long wait. It's been fast-tracked now though.
For me the legal side is separate from the employment issue. The legal side has completed its role, appeals notwithstanding, and now it moves on to the ramifications for his future.
For me it comes down to this: which organisation wants this man on their payroll? If Oldham, or whoever, think he's worth the risk then that's their call. Personally, it appears to be a terrible idea. I can't imagine the fans or the sponsors wanting this at all. Maybe Oldham are desperate? Maybe Oldham fans are desperate? Maybe football in general is just a desperate business?
p.s. I'm no football fan and stopped watching it some time back.
Another important question remains - are the sponsors of these clubs up in arms because they don't think he should play for the club they sponsor due to his conviction or simply because they see it as a PR disaster for them if they are associated with him and get their name plastered all over the medias?
Both. Whoever runs the PR at Oldham must be crackers.
On the radio- decided not to sign him. Maybe he should take a sabbatical and wait. After all his old club paid him handsomely whilst he was in jail (160k) so he can't be that down on his luck based on that alone for now.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30727729 ]"enormous pressure from sponsors and threats to staff and their families".[/url]
I think this is shameful, I really do. None of this is making anything more 'right' or solving anything. It's a witch-hunt, pure and simple.
The internet used as an old fashioned lynch mob to threaten folk for not braking the law
There are no winners here.
Whoever runs the PR at Oldham must be crackers.
We were on about this last night. Mrs Binners knows the girl who does the PR at Oldham Athletic (I've met her a few times on charity do's at Ice Station Zebra). Being not remotely camera shy (to say the least) - the fact that she's been noticeable by her absence suggests she's not happy fronting this one.
That, or she's being good at her job (she is!), and telling them what they don't want to hear - that this is PR suicide -and has therefore been sidelined/told to shut up