[Closed] Catholic school but we are devout atheist

a strange BIG virgin Mary you have to speak to in the naughty corner.

Do you have to sign the home/school agreement? I may be wrong, but as this is a local authority allocated place, then don't the school have to take your child. They may encourage you to sign an agreement to show that the school and parent s are working together blah blah blah but actually it is the LA who are ensuring that your child gets the education.

If the school refuse to take your child it could be an interesting situation where the LA have allocated the place, you are willing to work with the school and support their behaviour policy, but are retaining your right not to take part in acts of worship which don't match with your own, and the school are being unreasonable.

Otherwise it sounds like they are requiring you to sign a contract with them to get access to the education, which is a bit of a new one to me!

I work in a secular school and have never work in a religious school so I may be wrong about what their rights are!

Binner's .... even us in God Squad feel like we're burning in hell when having to listen to Alanis Morissette.

😈

You appeared to be suggesting an equivalence ("not a one way street") with indoctrination. I find the suggestion absurd.

Again not at all, there seems to be a question as to whether this school is being cute with it obligation to allow pupils to opt out, which as I understand is a legal obligation. I was merely comparing this to the fact than many schools in our area are not really meeting their legal obligations re: assemblies. Whether you think the laws are sensible or not is another matter.

Danish citizens have to pay the 'Church tax' if they are affiliated with the church, and it can take up to 1.5% of their income.

That's nothing its 8-9% in Germany.

Yes but you are allowed to put 'no church' and not pay it. They do similar in Finland.

That's nothing its 8-9% in Germany.

I dont believe you. that's a huge sum.

You're a bolshy lot you bloody [s]godless heathens[/s] atheists. You could do with some god in your lives. And a nice cup of tea...

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That's nothing its 8-9% in Germany.

It's 8-9% of your income tax bill, not your actual income.

I hear what your all saying about signing the schools code and being placed by the LA. I will probably delete all aspects of the code i dont wish to adhere to and sign onto the rest. hopfully we can reach a position that is mutually beneficial.

also id like to point out that i have no issues with religion being in the curriculum as its key to our understanding our culture, economics and history but it should be treated no different than Greek mythology (which is way cooler).

It's 8-9% of your income tax bill, not your actual income.

Is correct, danger of replying too quickly, so from under 1% to 4% for top tax payers - still big numbers raises EUR 10 billion ish.

Look at it as an opportunity to teach your child tolerance, understanding and alternative viewpoints.

Our daughter goes to an active CofE school, whilst my other half is an atheist and I'm agnostic. She's coming home singing songs about God etc and we take it on the chin (it's a great school). However, everynow and then we tell her it's a debated history/story that some people choose to believe and others don't..and she can make up her own mind. She's her own person...and only 4 😀

I was merely comparing this to the fact than many schools in our area are not really meeting their legal obligations re: assemblies.

Well, a really quick glimpse tells me that the LA haven't followed their own policy in that

Information regarding the school place offered will not be given out before 16 April 2016. If you are on
holiday when the offer letters are sent out, no special arrangements will be made to give information out to
parents/carers before 16 April 2016.

A panel might not care however as the Code says [b]on or around[/b]the 16th, Bolton clearly says not before the 16th.

The OSL is the waiting list. I'd be asking where are you on it, what's the drop out rate for the school. LA will not know how many kids wont take up the place but they'll have an historic picture.

If the PAN is 30 then it's really difficult to win an appeal (but not impossible - ive lost a few). There are 'excepted pupils'2.15 of the School Admissions Code, panels should only agree places in exceptional limited circumstances.

Your best hope is to try for procedural error by LA or Admitting Authority (if academy or OAA)

You'll also want to know where the line was drawn and where you are in relation to that.

As you can tell, I don't give a crap about the pro/negative position of church schools. It's an argument where opinions are polarised. My personal opinions are irrelevant. But I see both sides of the arguments in appeals...... 😉

Panels, certainly in this part of the world, are likely to have pro church types on them.

Is the Catholic school you've been allocated to undersubscribed (ie has less children than there are places for)?

You're not in Stockport are you?

I doubt it. They breed like rabbits

The OSL is the waiting list. I'd be asking where are you on it, what's the drop out rate for the school. LA will not know how many kids wont take up the place but they'll have an historic picture.

If the PAN is 30 then it's really difficult to win an appeal (but not impossible - ive lost a few). There are 'excepted pupils'2.15 of the School Admissions Code, panels should only agree places in exceptional limited circumstances.

I had a chat with admissions and the preferred school has had zero drop outs in the last 2 years as have the other less local schools, and have been told an appeal will only be upheld if its an exceptional circumstance.

 

Is the Catholic school you've been allocated to undersubscribed (ie has less children than there are places for)?

You're not in Stockport are you?

they are full, im sure we are taking up a space someone would want.

Bolton

I doubt it. They breed like rabbits

LOL your on fire today 😆

Ask them why they've released the decisions early when the School Admissions Code says 16th or first working day after.

Panel members like this kind of procedural error ime.*

*it might not be enough to win the appeal however

[b]Religious Education and the law[/b]

[b]Parents have the right to withdraw their child from all or any part of RE[/b]. [b]This includes parents whose children attend a faith school. If pupils are withdrawn from RE, schools have a duty to supervise them, though not to provide additional or alternative teaching.[/b]

http://www.secularism.org.uk/religious-education-and-the-law.html

womp - That's only religious education not worship.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/collective-worship.html

The law in England and Wales provides that children at all maintained schools "shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship". Even in schools with no religious designation, the worship must be "wholly or mainly of a Christian character".

If pupils are withdrawn from RE, schools have a duty to supervise them, though not to provide additional or alternative teaching.

Seems an odd decision by the council if the Catholic school is not undersubscribed. Have a word with the council I reckon you'll get a satisfactory resolution.

How do the above posts help?
Or is it just venting?

You've been offered a VC school, you can turn the offer down and find a community school further away.

The LA has met it's duty by offering a school.

Seems an odd decision by the council if the Catholic school is not undersubscribed. Have a word with the council I reckon you'll get a satisfactory resolution.

How so? It's application of the criteria and this child vs all others who have applied.

It could be the NO-ONE got in on religious grounds (unlikely , I know).

There will be a considerable amount of teaching about God. not great but not the end of the world

Not true, they cover that in Revelations.

How do the above posts help?
Or is it just venting?

You've been offered a VC school, you can turn the offer down and find a community school further away.

The LA has met it's duty by offering a school.

my posts ?
i agree with you the LA have met the criteria and the odds of a successful appeal are not looking good, if it goes in our favor then it will be from compassion rather than any rights we have. as we can always take a school in another location move, neither option is appealing but that is our choice.

The bit im not happy about is my wife and i being forced to sign a religious code and my child being forced to partake in religious superstitions.

the LA done their duty and have provided a place at a school for education to the national curriculum but i dont feel we should be forced to partake in mas, prayer, rain dances or any other mumbo jumbo

The bit im not happy about is my wife and i being forced to sign a religious code and my child being forced to partake in religious superstitions.

No one is being forced to do anything. You can chose not to accept.

If I felt so strongly that I was being "forced" to do something that I disagreed with, for me and my child, then I'd probably feel a huge sense of relief from being able to say "no, thanks" and looking to the next steps.

If you make that decision, I wish you the very best of luck at the appeal to win your daughter the place you want for her.

Woop, if the panel rules in your favour it WILL NOT be, in fact cannot be, one of compassion. If you appeal, the clerk should explain to you the very limited reasons why an appeal can be allowed.

My rather grumpy post above was meant in terms of, whether or not a child at the allocated school has to take part in collective worship or education has no bearing on the decision to refuse school A.

aa understood and appreciate your unbiased input on a topic that is emotive

My other half went to an RC school. She's an atheist now. Quite possibly [i]because[/i] of the RC schooling. She's got a fair brain on her though. Plenty of her compatriots are mindlessly continuing the inherited religion nonsense, it seems.

No one is being forced to do anything. You can chose not to accept.

yes take your point, i could move. but it seems a little unfair in this day and age that schools within our free education system can impose religious practice on other groups Atheists, Muslims and Christians alike.

Imagine if a Catholic family was placed in a Mulsim school and not the local Catholic school and then had to sign a Muslim code of practice and agree to partake in the prayer sessions. at the end of the day the LA have fulfilled its commitment to provide a school and if they don't like it then they can move hey.

The point is faith schools are limiting the options for education for everyone and i don't personally believe it should be a factor but that is the system we have and this thread is not going to solve that.

In spite of my lack of patience with some of the inaccurate and ignorant (malicious or not) assertions about religion on this thread, the fact is that, having grown up in Canada, I remain amazed that religion continues to hold the place it does in public schools.

I strongly agree with Junkyard that in a school, an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or whoever, should have the same education, and the same access to the same education. Even if I thought everyone should believe exactly what I believe (which I don't), I don't think it's helpful for one minute to subject children - or anyone else - to public indoctrination, or forced 'acts of worship'.

In spite of my lack of patience with some of the inaccurate and ignorant (malicious or not) assertions about religion on this thread, the fact is that, having grown up in Canada, I remain amazed that religion continues to hold the place it does in public schools.

I strongly agree with Junkyard that in a school, an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or whoever, should have the same education, and the same access to the same education. Even if I thought everyone should believe exactly what I believe (which I don't), I don't think it's helpful for one minute to subject children - or anyone else - to public indoctrination, or forced 'acts of worship'.

Amen

I strongly agree with Junkyard that in a school, an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or whoever, should have the same education, and the same access to the same education. Even if I thought everyone should believe exactly what I believe (which I don't), I don't think it's helpful for one minute to subject children - or anyone else - to public indoctrination, or forced 'acts of worship'.

I don't think it's helpful for one minute to subject children - or anyone else - to public indoctrination, or forced 'acts of worship'

Furthermore, it'd be pretty flippin easy to avoid.

[quote=womp ]the method for the points system uses AA routfinder for distance

Another can of worms there - I presume they're allowed to do that, but it flies in the face of supposed national aims for sustainable transport to select schools based on closest driving distance. They do at least state closest walking distance here (which does potentially make a difference - though it would be kind of interesting to try and use AA routefinder for local houses which aren't on it).

"I strongly agree with Junkyard that in a school, an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or whoever, should have the same education, and the same access to the same education. Even if I thought everyone should believe exactly what I believe (which I don't), I don't think it's helpful for one minute to subject children - or anyone else - to public indoctrination, or forced 'acts of worship'.

+1. Actually, I don't have a problem with faith schools, provided that the state doesn't pay for them."

+1

[quote=womp ]The bit im not happy about is my wife and i being forced to sign a religious code and my child being forced to partake in religious superstitions.
What happens if you refuse to sign?

Surely in this multi-faith day and age, the only rational option is to remove the religious element from all State funded schools?
Let the experts teach religion - the churches/temples/mosques/synagogues etc and keep public schooling a purely secular affair.
You can of course pay for a private religious education if it is important to you.
As above, whilst i am not a believer i have absolutely no problem with the concept of a religiously based education - i just don't think it should be funded by the taxpayer.

To be honest, I think a state funded school with a religious aspect is the least of our worries with the academy agenda. BUT, I honestly think that with tax payers money paying for free schools with their own agendas to push then a voluntary aided or cofe school is nothing to get too worked up about. Plus, statistically, cofe schools perform better than community schools if I remember correctly. Plus, who doesn't want diversity??
(having said that, I did suggest removing the religious criteria from vc schools on my patch a couple of years ago but was shot down by our solicitors/elected members).

Surely in this multi-faith day and age, the only rational option is to remove the religious element from all State funded schools

No.

The religious aspect should absolutely be a part of state education, so long as it's taught in an academic fashion. Kids should be taught what Christians / Muslims / Buddhists / Atheists believe, and be able to learn from the positive tenets of all religions. It needs to be an impartial, unbiased education.

It's when one preferred doctrine is presented as fact alongside Maths, Physics etc that we have a problem. Because kids look to teachers as purveyors of absolute fact and it's an abuse of power to bundle an individual belief system into an educational curriculum as though they're the same thing.

Let the experts teach religion

Let the schools [i]teach [/i]religion. Let the experts, ie churches / mosques / whatever [i]preach[/i] religion. That's their raison d'etre.

Cougar, I agree with you entirely. And when you say

The religious aspect should absolutely be a part of state education, so long as it's taught in an academic fashion. Kids should be taught what Christians / Muslims / Buddhists / Atheists believe, and be able to learn from the positive tenets of all religions. It needs to be an impartial, unbiased education.

The only thing I would add is that I wish this was done in the context of a class akin to what we in Canada used to call 'Social Studies': a mix of history and geography that got students to engage with places and cultures in all their facets. I think such a class would be even better than devoting a class to 'religious studies', as when it is divorced from the temple (or wherever), it is better seen as part of the human cultures from which it emerges. Anyway, just a thought.

Speaking if not as a "militant atheist" then certainly as an "assertive atheist," I'm wholly behind that, it's a brilliant idea.

Why isn't this the default baseline? Oh, yeah, people.

Question - how can you present 'an impartial, unbiased' academic fashion?
Not being picky, but there are so many religious people out there with their own interpretations of their faiths i can see an endless stream of challenges to what is being taught.
I suppose i can't see how religion can be taught 'academically' without constant challenge.

@muddydwarf: I doubt it would ever be perfect, but in pedagogical terms, it could be taught with the same approach as history or politics. In other words, bias will not be avoided, but admitted and then factored in as part of the study.