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SApart fromwhen the crash occured we wer riding within the speed limit and well withng the limits of the road allowing for such hazards.
If were were going flat oput you would be right - but we were not going flat out avoiding a hazard on the road would have been easay
Wow! Is this thread still going? Are we still at the stage where we all agree that driver/rider training is good and that driving/riding slower is safer (except TJ)?
{EDIT} ooops, forgot the smiley
😉
Wow! Is this thread still going?
Of course it is, TJ is on it.
TJ no one is disputing the whole countersteering/experience point.
However your complete inability to see the issue that speed [b]can[/b] have demonstrates nicely some of the issues detailed in the report I linked.
when the crash occured we wer riding within the speed limit
Convenient addition to the story!!!! 🙄
Molgrips, in relation to noise a bike revs higher, so for arguements sake, at 40mph if im on my mises' 749r, in third gear, the engine will be at approx 4.5k revs and that will generally keep it on he bottom of the first power band but it will rev upto 13k, in the car, i might be in 3rd gear too, but at 2.5k revs, hence the noise. Granted race cans don;t help, the majority of which, provided they are not stamped 'illegal for road use' are perfectly legal for the road, its at the discression of the mot tester about noise.
Having read through this, for possibly only the second time I find myself tending to agree with TJ. I'm not a biker. My brother is, and has been since he was old enough to own a bike. Last year he was nearly killed when he clipped the back of a car at 20mph which pitched him into the path of a car doing 50. This has no bearing on the topic in question, just to point out that I'm not ignorant of motorcycles or how they're ridden. I'm going to draw a parallel with driving a car quickly. I don't drive a sportscar, I drive a medium sized saloon with a diesel engine, but, like TJ says, it's quite possible to drive at a speed that other road users would consider excessive without actually exceeding posted speed limits. I regularly find myself behind drivers in modern cars pootleing along at an indicated 40, (approx 36mph), where the limit is 60, and braking into corners that even in my Octavia I can take at 50. There's nothing excessive about how I'm driving, but the perception of others when I go into a bend at that sort of speed with no brake lights coming on would probably be 'bloody lunatic'. I have the road knowledge and skill of around thirty years driving and I know my limits and where I can use speed safely and where not to. I've only gone off a road twice, once when a rear tyre blew out on my dad's old Capri, and once last winter on an icy road at 10mph. Neither resulted in damage, 'cos, like TJ, I know when it's stupid to use [i]excessive[/i] speed for the prevailing road conditions.
That sums it up perfectly. Why should an innocent party's life be potentially forfeited for another person's selfish thrill.
because the car is king. even on a cycling forum.
That sums it up perfectly. Why should an innocent party's life be potentially forfeited for another person's selfish thrill.
If we are talking about local communities who need to get to and access their remote homes in that area fine.
However I think its safe to say that all people entering such roads know that it (and other similar roads) are expected to be respected first and dangerous in many ways (be it gradient, weather/conditions and you need to be concentrating more nevermind other drivers).
What do you hand-ringers propose next? reduce all NSL's down to 30mph's?
There are roads in the wider area that are more challenging to any driver. Whats the name of the road that comes over from Holmfirth and joins halfway along Woodhead? Part of the drop down has an exposed/severe drop with no barrier and of course no street lights.
Stop thinking that its dangerous because lots of people are having head-on's with reckless drivers.
Theres more to it than that.
If you want to start nannying people more then where do you stop? If you were born or grew up in a rural or semi-rural area you'll know all about these roads. Average camera's are a good idea on straight roads- NOT on winding roads where you shouldn't be checking your speedo.
[s]Idiot-city people[/s] 🙄 On reflection thats abit harsh. If you haven't been around such roads all your life you really don't know the true ins and outs. The majority of serious accidents/deaths occur on country roads- not because they are race tracks but because of the higher requirements they place on average drivers just to get along them safely.
CountZero, we are all arguing against excessive speed.
ChrisA - it's not the noise. It's the sudden appearing in the rear view mirror then barrelling past really close to your car when there's a car coming the other way - that's what I was referring to. Even if there's room, doesn't mean it's very nice.
Imagine going to the supermarket and running around grabbing stuff from infront of people, barging past really close to people's faces shouting RAAAAAAAARR!!! at the top of your lungs. You wouldn't do it.. so why do it on the roads? I'm sure TJ and other responsible motorcyclists don't do it, but some do. Some drivers do it too, and it's downright antisocial.
But that is not the issue on this thread.
No offence molgrips but are you one of them people that occasionally start to speed up once I draw parallel to them on NSL's?
....purely as you think I shouldn't be driving soo fast and reckless to overtake so you'll teach me a 'lesson'?
What do you hand-ringers propose next? reduce all NSL's down to 30mph's?
I'm not hand-wringing. We've established that the NSL is not the issue here anyway because almost everyone completely ignores it. All I want is for people to relax, take it easy and stop people c*nts on public roads. People crash for many reasons, but one is wanting to go fast and f*ck about.
I grew up in the countryside, and these windy A roads are the biggest roads in the area. Loads of people overtaking in stupid places and risking their lives, and lots of accidents, and lots of deaths.
To illustrate, one big one fairly recently was a lorry driver going through a hamlet just north of Leominster on the A49; there's a sharp (for the road) left hander then right hander, 40mph speed limit. The lorry was apparently going too fast and lost control, hitting another lorry and careering into a house which it partially demolished and set on fire. Both drivers died I think. Amazingly fortunately, the family who lived in the house were on holiday. The road had to be resurfaced, the fire was that bad.
public roads have speed limits for a reason, if you want to go faster than your driving skills will let you , then do a track day.
Drive down Snake Pass at 40mph (nevermind 60+) and you a slight slip of concentration could mean you are on the wrong side of the road or clip a kerb etc.
Maybe I'm missing something here but I'm struggling to think of many bad driving that I've witnessed on roads around rural Yorkshire.
I can tell you the ones I've seen on urban and motorways though- daily observations.
Drive down Snake Pass at 40mph (nevermind 60+) and you a slight slip of concentration could mean you are on the wrong side of the road or clip a kerb etc.
Ah yes.. good point. Now, if you do make a mistake or your concentration slips, if you are going slower you'll have more time to correct! I've made many mistakes whilst driving, but because I am doing everything with plenty of margin for error, I have managed to recover without incident so far.
I saw and still see tons of examples of terrible driving on the roads of Wales and the Marches. It's mostly people overtaking when they either can't see or there's something coming the other way anyway. And it's not all grannies doing 40mph either. If you drive the NSL you'll get people forcing their way past almost as much.
Ah yes.. good point. Now, if you do make a mistake or your concentration slips, if you are going slower you'll have more time to correct!
At 40 you'd still be firmly on the wrong side of the road there. In winter it can be truly evil.
Basically around there it can catch ANY driver out. Some roads up and around Huddersfield are 2nd (and even 1st) gear climbs on a few bends/roads.
Basically the technical equal-to singletrack.
Can anyone explain countersteering to me? I have no idea what it is, although have survived a year on a motorbike with only one crash. Someone once tried to explain it to me for use on my roadbike once, but they failed.
The correct line on a motorcycle places you in a different place in the road so you can see further. One of the common newb mistakes is to use the same lines as a car.
Just reading through the thread as these ones are always amusing... Without wishing to get drawn into the overall debate it's fair to say that the second sentence above falls into the trap of tarring all drivers with the same brush (which, it appears, it is unacceptable to do to motorcyclists...).
A good driver in a car will be positioning the vehicle to maximise the 'safe' speed - which may be by maximsing visibility or by optimising the line. A motorbike has the advantage that the rider can position his/her self to a greater 'extreme' due to the width of the vehicle, but it's simply an extension of the same principle that a car driver should be applying.
Both will also be considering other factors about the respective performance and abilities of their vehicles in selecting their speed.
And yes, I do ride a motorbike as well as drive a car.
Certainly breaking the 60 mph limit at times
Apart fromwhen the crash occured we wer riding within the speed limit
Huh?
LHS - Member
"The belief that just because you are a better driver or motorcyclist than the "weekend warriors" you can be safer at speed is just idiotic. "
LHS - Member
"I think TJs points ring true that, if you are a more experienced/skilled biker you can go round a corner quicker and safer than a weekend born again warrior"
Hmm.
hora - Member
...However I think its safe to say that all people entering such roads know that it (and other similar roads) are expected to be respected first and dangerous in many ways (be it gradient, weather/conditions and you need to be concentrating more nevermind other drivers)....
There are also children using country roads. It's how they get from place to place.
Northwind, you need to copy and paste the whole post, not take it out of context. But good contribution none the less! 🙄
Oh dear - one or two people seem to have trouble reading.
The scenario I described where someone crashed following us we had gone over 60 mph at points duri8ng the ride. However on the stretch where the crash occurred we were at around 50 mph.
Clearly stated in my post but ignored. So the crash occurred at well under the speed limit and a speed that was quite reasonable for the stretch of road. Unfortunatly the guy who crashed had such poor skills that he couldn't ride safely even at a moderate speed. focussing on speed will not stop such accidents.
Oh dear - one or two people seem to have trouble reading.
Yeah.. you for starters 🙂
TJ you said he was going to fast for his skills, so how would him slowing down not help?
I know what you are trying to say, that more skills are needed - that is absolutely true and obvious. But reduced speeds are also an important part of that.
The problem is that people base their judgements on experiences. So many people will tend to think that they are fine when they are in fact taking risks. They will only learn the hard way, when they do have a crash. By which point it could be too late.
Do you see what I am getting at? It's about psychology, both of the individual and of society. Many motorcyclists and drivers think that they can drive as fast as they like because they are great drivers/riders. But until you meet an obstacle round a blind bend you won't realise how much of a risk you are taking. This is the same for drivers and riders.
See that show Britain's Worst Driver for examples of what I am talking about.
Society comes into it because it's deemed acceptable by the riding and driving community to speed and mess about on roads. And I must say, all the evidence points to motorcyclists being worse than drivers on the whole in this respect...
I ride a motorbike, enjoy doing it and, having put in the effort, I ride to a reasonable standard. I mostly use the bike for commuting (in all weathers) which helps to improve/maintain skills.
I like making progress on twisty roads, but get most satisfaction from doing it smoothly and well rather than screaming down straights at high speed and over-taking where I can't see ahead. I don't ride a sports bike because I don't see the point on typical UK roads -A dual-sport/large 'supermoto' style bike makes a lot more sense and point-to-point (without going stupid on straight roads)on bumpy, winding roads are at least as effective as bikes with twice the amount of power, especially when wet.
A lot of people have extremely powerful machines (mainly for bragging rights?), but don't do that much riding which, in my view, is not a good combination.
Some bikers do seem happy to overtake and corner with little visibility and pass between oncoming cars at speed, but to me it seems unnecessary.
Had I ridden a motorbike 10 years ago I possibly could have been a liability, but experience, age and responsibility have made a difference (it applies equally to mtb...).
The Cat & Fiddle is a great road, but a twisting mountain road needs to be travelled with care.
Don't tar everyone with the same brush.
On a good day 'bikers' roads are hellish places to be. Too many Rossi wannabees riding like total tools.
LHS "Northwind, you need to copy and paste the whole post, not take it out of context. But good contribution none the less! "
Heh, that old ruse? "You've caught me saying something stupid! Quick, claim it's out of context". That's the first post in full. The second post in full is pretty incoherent but doesn't change the statements you've made one bit.
You're obviously just up for an argument so best to just move on. 🙄
Thanks for not replying to my request for help with countersteering, I tried it on the way home and sped off through a hedge in the wrong direction and am now typing from a hospital bed.
[i]this post was uploaded via ****tphone[/i]
sorry AA
countersteering - you already do it withut thinking.
To turn left you push the left end of the bar away from you. This does two things -1) it moves the bikes contact patch to the right causing it to topple to the left. 2) by gyroscopic precession the twist of the wheel to the right makes it lean to the left.
so by turning the bars to the right you initiate a lean to the left. Its the lean that makes the bike corner - it generates camber thrust ( the thing that makes a rolled cone go round in circles)
Once the turn is initiated the steering returns to the straight ahead position. to return to straight you do the opposite - so to strighten up from this left turn you steer left ( pushing the right bar) and the bike stands up and goes straight on.
Counter steering is how all motorcycles work. What people generally mean is to do this more consciously - with a firm hard shove on the bar - it makes the bike drop into the turn more quickly.
Someone once tried to persuade our Physics class in 6th form college that you had to turn the bars the opposite way you wanted to steer first, on a pushbike. We laughed at him... It is actually possible to turn a pushbike without doing this, but if you want to turn fast it does actually help if you whip it 6" the other way first...
Went passed a crashed biker this morning on my ride to work. Looked bad as he was in a neck brace, with a back board going into the back of an ambulance. Take care