[Closed] Cat & Fiddle "The most dangerours road in the UK" - Really?

BigButSlimmerBloke - Member

Speed Kills.

No it doesn't.

There is also a detour on the route that has no cameras so will screw up the average speed calcs. Possibly.

The old road leaves and rejoins the new road, but that's less safe again.

I knew someone who was killed when out cycling on Long Hill (that's the A5004 between Whaley Bridge and Buxton, for those in the South). He was hit head on by a motorcyclist. The motorcyclist also died.

For someone so vehemently anti-car / pro fuel-price hikes, I find TJ's approval of ragging the arse off high powered sports bikes on public highways strangely contradictory.

Inappropriate speed can

🙄

Pretty weak little caveat there to make a point.

Speed Kills.

To be fair to TJ, that's not actually what he says. What he's trying to say is that people with the appropriate skill 'can' ride at a faster pace and more safely than those without those skills. It's actually pretty self evident, it just doesn't matter that much statistically in terms of overall road safety

Thank you nickc! I thought I had lost the ability to explain myself at all!

A biker screaming along may well be comfortably within his own skill level but it doesn't stop him putting the shits up other road users and potentially causing fatal distractions.

But that's alright cause he is an experienced, safe biker.

If the average person (or the whole nation) goes faster then there is likely to be more accidents and fatalities, is that not accepted?

I think there are a couple of red herrings here, what John McGuiness does is very different to the general motorcycling public. He rides on closed roads and short track, granted the TT / NW200 / etc are hazardous in terms of the surface but marshals are there to minimise risk, i.e. Oil spill, animal on the track - look at hutchey this year, he said he lost 2 seconds on one lap this year due to marshal flags. He;s also using the whole road with nothing coming the other way. If i took the desmosedici out this afternoon and road like john mcguiness on a public road, i wouldn;t fancy my chance of coming home.

You just can;t ride like that. All riders new or old should be made to do compulsary further training, either rospa, iam or bikesafe and wise up a bit, that would reduce the accidents through anticipation, thinking ahead and making calulated decisions. yes my bike is far too powerful for road use, like 95% of bikes on the road, but its only as fast as the rider that winds it on.

It's actually pretty self evident, it just doesn't matter that much statistically in terms of overall road safety

Exactly, it's self evident, which is why it's too obvious for him to need explaining... He is likewise missing our points.

To me, the phrase 'speed kills' means that if you are going too fast you might crash and die. Which is true. I don't think anyone's stupid enough to think it means that if you go at any speed you are certainly going to die. So there's not much point arguing against it.

Pretty weak little caveat there to make a point.

Speed Kills.

How does that work? You reach a certain speed and drop dead? I have never heeard of speed being recorded as the cause of death. Perhaps you can enighten me what speed is the fatal one, the one that will certainly, under any circumstances kill?

Yep Coyote, it's a good point, the public roads are no place for this kind of stuff, last time we had this discussion I think it was decided that consideration was an important part of riding/driving, and it has to be said, that a 'good' driver/rider won't by coming past you like that...

Sorry BigButSlimmerBloke...I "bow" to your superior skills regarding pedantry and semantics.

You know what the **** it means, don't be silly, but feel free to sit there and make useless points because a two-word slogan sounds a bit Daily-Mailesque to [i]you[/i].

🙄

BBSB - you're really coming across as a tool here.

FFS - molgrips - do you get tired of the whooshing noise as things fly over your head. You clearly have failed to grasp the points again.

However your prejudices and leaping to conclusions in your ignorance is obviously more valid than my decades of experience and avid reading of the research.

TJ I have not. Please explain why you think this!

I'm agreeing with you, did you not see that part?

deadly - you're welcome, I just prefer not live my life to other people's slogans.
still, maybe you can tell me what the fatal speed is, out of interest?

avid reading of the research.

I so want your life 🙂

BBSB - you're really coming across as a tool here.

I know, imagine disagreeing with someone who's talking rubbish. Shocker, eh?

One final attempt

The majority of these accidents with bikers on roads such as the a537 are born again bikers who vastly overestimate their skills.

Teh classic accident is not at high speed - its running wide on medium speed bends. This is because they don't have the skills to ride the bike properly

Because it is not high speed accidents then a focus on speeds is not going to reduce th4e accident stats significantly.

skill is far more important on a motorcycle than people give credit for, speed is far less important. Because of this skilled riders are often both faster and safer.

The answer must lie in stopping people riding beyond their capabilities. Clamping down on speed will not stop these crashes.

BigButSlimmerBloke - Member

BBSB - you're really coming across as a tool here.

I know, imagine disagreeing with someone who's talking rubbish. Shocker, eh?

You appear to be looking at it from a "pedant with nothing better to do" angle, which is completely inappropriate, it's clearly a simple headline that summarises a valid point. Is that simple enough for you?

deadly - you're welcome, I just prefer not live my life to other people's slogans.

You're the man, living life according to your own rules. A proper Easy Rider type. Impressive. Maybe you can think of something snappy that fools like me can understand and have a think about then. I could have sworn for years that the "Speed Kills" slogan [b][i]actually[/i][/b] meant that speed really does kill somewhere along the scale. Silly old me eh?

still, maybe you can tell me what the fatal speed is, out of interest?

I don't know. You still can't see you're just being silly do you? If you think the constant over analysis sounds clever, it doesn't. As cynic-al said, you're just sounding a bit toolish.

No arguments there TJ - as I said before.

However, speed is a factor.

The classic accident is not at high speed - its running wide on medium speed bends

Yes, and they run wide because they are going too fast for their skill level. So they could stay safe by skilling up, or slowing down.

Like I say, it's ultimately too much speed for a person to handle that causes a crash. Slowing down to a point at which they can ride the bike properly would be a very easy way to help.

Or, to put it another way - overconfidence kills.

Please don't slag me off for being stupid here.. this is meant to be a discussion so we can figure out our repsective points.

One final attempt

Famous last words...oh that they were true 🙂

[i]The answer must lie in stopping people riding beyond their capabilities. Clamping down on speed will not stop these crashes.[/i]

Speed humps every 20 feet will though 🙂

not always molgrips - target fixation more than anything, you don't even need to be over the speed limit for it to have desperate consequenses on a roads like the A537

I didnt realise how long it was since I last drove that road... must be about a year ago, so the cameras must have come in since.

The first time I drove it you could see straight away that it was a fab road, with lots of excellent low speed corners that you can see right round and far enough ahead so that you know if a car is coming the other direction way before you get to the corner. Also there are some cracking straights too where you can see for miles.

I could see that the problems come when some out brake themselves in to the bends, when damp some of the bends are more greasy than you would expect probably due to the amount of rubber laid down, and some of the straights are uneven and bumpy, and if your idiotic enough to drive/ride it quickly the first time your out then I could certainly see why it could easily go wrong.

Last year I went up a few times and drove back and forth over the route a few times getting progressively quicker and quicker, the straights you have to treat with respect, but can be driven very quickly in sections, then bends are an absolute joy with 2nd gear controlled slides and drifts possible. Its a shame that such a good road is now gone.

TJ is largely right here I reckon, at least in what he's specifically talking about (though he's either being very specific or ignoring what I discuss below) - skilled riders can ride faster than a less skilled rider and be safer. BUT only with the caveat that that only applies for accidents where only the motorbike is involved.

Add in accidents or potential ones where oil, ice, mechanical failure, other cars/motorbike/sheep, etc are a factor and less speed does make it safer (though again, to a much smaller degree, skill may have some benefit - eg some riders can rescue a tankslapper better than others). How much those accidents apply to the specific road(s) mentioned isn't something I know but I'll bet that even if it's not a majority, a significant proportion of motorbike accidents do involve other factors and as such, higher skill levels will not allow you to ride significantly faster than a less skilled rider without significantly increasing risk of those accidents.

Just don't buy a motorbike - simple.

IMO going 5mph over a speed limit is MUCH safer than going 5mph under it but riding about a foot from someone's rear bumper - which many riders do.

A superbike can be had for £8k brand new. A bit more for something utterly mental - a simple and very basic test is all that is needed to ride one. Some get to 100 in 5 seconds - that's insanely fast. I think that for over a certain power, extra training and a very rigorous test should be mandatory. Or just ban stupidly fast bikes altogether; unfortunately that's most bikes over 600cc!

Surely the classic accident is a motorist pulling out and not seeing the biker. That must happen far more often than the A537 type accidents.

[i]its running wide on medium speed bends.[/i]

hmmm, then it's still a 'speed' issue, this is caused 'mostly' by too high a speed on entry...Or missing the apex (a skill thing) but my money's on speed.

not always molgrips - target fixation more than anything, you don't even need to be over the speed limit for it to have desperate consequenses on a roads like the A537

Absolutely, but this is not about the legal speed limit. This cannot take into account sharp bends.

nickc - Member

its running wide on medium speed bends.

hmmm, then it's still a 'speed' issue, this is caused 'mostly' by too high a speed on entry...Or missing the apex (a skill thing) but my money's on speed.

Neither.

its caused by panicking, sitting up and backing off the throttle - this cause the bike to run wide. This is at speeds far below those which a skilled rider could get round the corner with huge safety margins. its purely a lack of ability. The entry speed is fine.

Edit - of course the reasons for crashes are very varied but this particular scenario is suprising common and accounts for a lot of the deaths on great biking roads.

Out of interest as a non-motorbiker, why does coming off the throttle make you understeer? Logically I'd have thought that if you back off, you'll get some engine braking to the backwheel which will tend to reduce grip and oversteer if anything?

Just a suggestion but perhaps add a suggested speed to road signs warning of a bend in the road, speed subject to severity of bend etc, that would at least give a better warning to motorists of whats coming up.
I remember riding in France some years ago & the grading of bends like this meant that once you got the feels of the system you could get your entry speed into the corners right for your level of skills & thrills 😉

DB - they have that in NZ too - made spirited driving far easier and much safer.

Good idea.

Clubber - makes the bike sit up straight - especiially if shaft driven, if you come off the throttle mid corner on my Moto Guzzi you might as well say bye bye

[i]its caused by panicking, sitting up and backing off the throttle [/i]

ummmm, right, and why would you be panicking then? and why would you be backing off the throttle?

Like I said only a couple of things make a bike run wide on a corner, missing the apex, and too much speed, panicking says to me it's a speed thing, no?

From only driving cars, I can not comment of bikes but, I know that certainly having done a track day makes you a smoother more progressive driver, and therefore less likely to crash.

As to limiting engine size etc etc, that really doesnt work, its all about momentum, and even a 65bhp car can be driven very quickly.

One thing that has changed in the last few years is that sports cars have gone for more and more grip, so therefore the speed at which things go wrong is so much higher, I assume the same applies to bikes? If more cars came out with less grip you could still have all the fun but at much much lower speeds.

Nick - not really - You go into a corner, realise it's tightening and instead of (by the sounds of it) trusting the bike and keeping on the throttle, you back off (it's natural instinct to slow down when in trouble) and cause the accident.

It is a speed thing yes - too much speed for your ability.

+1 for funkydunc also.

Dickyboy "makes the bike sit up straight"

Because you slow down (so you lean less)? So the wheels naturally turn less, right? (because a rounded profile wheel will naturally turn when leaned)

Without trying to link it to speed, my point was target fixation usualy equates to running wide / stright on. TJ is correct though, if you read the research, the majority of accidents involving motorcyclists is a single vehicle accident in derbyshire.

Backing off the throtle is usualy combined with natural reaction of grabbing a big handful of front brake Clubber, this stands the bike up mid corner and carries you over into the oncomng traffic, countersteering requires momentum, and a skilled rider would countersteer harder and accerlerate through the bend istead of backing out of it.

countersteer and accelerate - so like a speedway rider (to a much lesser extent!)?

[b]dunc[/b] to some extent but with the bikes its more than acceleration is so huge that a quick twist of the throttle gets you very fast very quickly.

the crash I describe they still have plenty of grip - but not the skills to use it.

[b]clubber[/b] - its really complex - its to do with position of the centre of gravity, geometric effects from the rear lifting, the width of the tyres and a load of other factors - but basically if you have 30 degrees of lean with a neutral throttle and all the forces balance when you roll off the throttle the forces change and rebalnce with 25 degrees of lean - meaning you run wide. Its not oversteer from a loss of front wheel grip like a car. The front tyre still has plenty of grip

Edit - sort of clubber but both wheels are still gripping.
[b]Nickc[/b] - its too fast only for their skill. Not for the radius of the bend or the abilities of the bike.