Nice. I've often thought of converting a car.
Problem is, buying a ton of batteries is expensive and fills the boot 🙂
It's also a bit spurious to claim it has no emissions as the leccy has to come from somewhere.
you're only equalling the Pious on fuel and molgrips has 4 seats, a boot and isn't dressed in a leather romper suit when at work or home.
Well I am equalling the prius in fuel... But I am faster.
It's not the 70's anymore... Plenty of protective gear that doesn't look like a gimp suit.
4 seats and a boot, still wtf would I want any of those. Plus it's 20 years old and running like a clockwork. I'd like to see the pious un 20 odd years 😀
Edit: can the pious link jausier to St sauveur sur tinée in 64 minutes 😈 ?
still wtf would I want any of those
Sorry to break this to you Juan, but this thread is NOT about you 🙂
Molgrips.
Dont let it wind you up. On here theres always going to be loads of differing view points, as we know.
esp the weird, [i]I haven't read the thread[/i] ones.
As I stated earlier. I think I now why people have bought hybrids, I hope its because they've got a conscience about driving cars with respect to the environment, and so have tried to mitigate their need to drive and the impact that will have on the environment, by purchasing a hybrid.
To those who have put their money where there mouth is, I commend you for trying.
Unfortunatley, hybrids are not the answer we all hoped they might have been and I blame the manufs for offering that red-herring to folk.
I really feel like getting the heads of the Govs and Manufs and banging them together. Telling them to "[i]Pick one, and sort it out[/i]".
Oh, and let me be clear, I work in the industry. But all this is just my opinion.
I'd go for Oceanic derived biofuels, used in an IC, until we could come up with something else.
I remember James May's comments after driving the Honda Clarity, the hydrogen fueled car on sale in California.
Something like:
The car of tomorrow, must be like the car of today, you drive it, when it runs out of fuel, you fill it up (in minutes) and drive it some more.
Anything else, would be a step backwards. This means EVs, but hybrids don't fair much better, imo.
Cheers.
😉
Unfortunatley, hybrids are not the answer we all hoped they might have been
All hybrids are is a more efficient car. I don't know that anyone thought they were going to save the planet on their own - I certainly didn't. Some folks out there may have got over-excited, I don't doubt that. But the American press is rabid at the best of times.
If you don't mind me asking, what do you do in the auto industry?
I've had a hybrid for the past 3 & 1/2 years, your driving style has a big impact on the consumption. As an example there's almost no engine braking so it coasts for ages so you lift off the pedal a lot earlier than a normal car and let the battery recharge, brake pads do last ages and as it's got a CVT gearbox it's a brilliant punchy drive and has been the most nippy car I've ever had whilst delivering reasonable running costs.
molgrips - Member"Touched a nerve did I mogrips? Its not me thats getting all offensive and shouty"
Yes, you bloody well did. You insulted me - not by being shouty, but worse than that.
I have been far less offensive and shouty and nasty than you have. Yo do take exception to far lessor insults than you dish out regularly.
You're not really listening. I'm not trying to be uber green. I am trying to mitigate my lifestyle.
Well don't try to justify your car as a green choice then. You are not significantly mitigating your lifestyle
A Prius is a car that's very economical for its size. That's all. I don't believe it's raping the environment in its production. You do - fine, but let's see some evidence..?
It clearly has a large environmental footprint - even toyota don't claim it is significantly less than another car of its size and a smaller lighter car would be better. Its really simple - a prius uses more resources over its lifetime than a basic conventional car. it only looks good against large luxury cars like itself.
Prius batteries have been shown to last ages (they are designed to last the lifetime of the car, due to battery management strategies of which you may not be aware), and be no less unreliable than any other car component.
Yes but once again you miss the point. They are extra weight to carry around, they consume extra resources to manufacture them - they have a significant environmental penalty that does not exist in a conventional car - with no significant advantages
"But basic family transport won't do for your family will it".
Utterly ungrounded and unnecessary insult. Please - leave it out. It's just not nice and is upsetting me
Its not an insult - its a statement of fact or you would have bought a basic family car.Why would something lessor not do you? They will still take 4 adults and their luggage and cruise at the legal limit.
What should I have bought instead then, in 2006? Requirements were economy, and space for 4 adults.
Any small basic family car - there are lots that will take 4 adults and have a boot - that are lighter and simpler than a the prius theus have a lower lifetime environmental penalty. Fiat Panda? 207? something simple small and light
A couple of folk had a go at me for not practising what I preach. I don't own a car nor a motorcycle anymore, I have flown once in 10 years and will be flying again this year - both short haul
I don't buy new consumer durables - this computer is ten years old
I do try to practice what I preach. No one is perfect but I would be confident my environmental footprint is far lower than most on here.
I do try to practice what I preach. No one ios perfect but \i would be confident my environmental footprint is far lower than most on here
It's still just magnitude isn't it. IIRC you live in an old fairly heat inefficient house, don't you? How many bedrooms? You see where I'm going, don't you...
I have been far less offensive and shouty and nasty than you have
Ok well this looks like a matter of miscommunication. You gravely insulted me, perhaps you didn't realise this or didn't intend to. But you really did.
even toyota don't claim it is significantly less than another car of its size
As I understood it, that quote referred to the manufacturing process. Over its lifetime, 30% less tailpipe emissions is significant.
Its really simple - a prius uses more resources over its lifetime than a basic conventional car
You can't back that up.
Yes but once again you miss the point. They are extra weight to carry around, they consume extra resources to manufacture them - they have a significant environmental penalty that does not exist in a conventional car - with no significant advantages
You miss the point. As far as I can tell the battery and motors weigh the same as a gearbox would do. So no weight penalty. The Prius doesn't weigh much, so how can there be a big penalty? And the advantages are clear to see - 30% reduction in tailpipe emissions, is that not an advantage over a normal car?
Its not an insult - its a statement of fact or you would have bought a basic family car.Why would something lessor not do you?
1) a Prius is in absolutely no way a large luxury car
2) if I'd bought something else, it would have been less economical.
Fiat Panda? Would you like to travel all afternoon in the back of a Fiat Panda with a suitcase on your knee? And use more fuel whilst you're at it?
[b]Your entire argument only holds true IF the Prius has a higher lifetime cost than a normal car - I don't believe this, and you don't have the facts to back it up.[/b]
You must utterly despise me. It's very upsetting. To the point where if I met you I would be trying not to punch you. And from a dedicated pacifist this is very serious indeed.
I just don't know what else to say.
I did not buy a flash luxury car
I did not buy a statement car
I do not think I am greener than anyone else
I just wanted to save some fuel
Why is this so wrong that we have to get to this level of terrible insult.
Calling me vain and accusing me of thinking I am better than others is really a massive insult. Far more than any four letter epithet.
i definitely think they should have named it the toyota pious
TandemJeremy you've upset Molgrips. Now be nice and go and apologise please.
So, to my original question: is it mad?
I understand that electric motors are very good at overcoming the moment of inertia and that petrol/diesel engines are good at going fast.
So, does the amount of fuel saved by starting off by electric motor outweigh the amount of fuel used to carry said motor/battery/charge collection equipment around? I think probably not.
It's clearly an emotive subject. I have a stonking great heavy 4x4, which is my tow car, and in which I do relatively few miles. I live very modestly in a small space which was bought second hand and needs few resources to heat/clean/maintain/repair. I don't fly. I cycle to work. I don't eat meat. I buy lots of stuff second-hand and only get rid of things when beyond repair - recycle, sell or give to charity.
I really don't want to be taxed heavily on my car because my carbon footprint is tiny in all other respects.
FWIW I think that this whole ncap crash safe thing stinks to high heaven - a 'safe' car is only safe for the people inside it, it's not safe for me on my bike, or someone on a horse, or an elderly lady crossing the road, in fact it's worse because the driver thinks s/he is 'safe'.
I don't think it's mad.
So, does the amount of fuel saved by starting off by electric motor outweigh the amount of fuel used to carry said motor/battery/charge collection equipment around?
It does, and more - that's why a Prius gets 70mpg, and other petrol cars of the same size get no better than 40mpg. When the fuels are the same, the difference is the electric motor.
FWIW I think that this whole ncap crash safe thing stinks to high heaven - a 'safe' car is only safe for the people inside it, it's not safe for me on my bike, or someone on a horse, or an elderly lady crossing the road, in fact it's worse because the driver thinks s/he is 'safe'.
One of the ratings in the NCAP system is pedestrian safety. That is, how much the car can mitigate the damage caused by hitting someone. This was never done before NCAP, and was a revolutionary step I think.
So NCAP has made it much safer to be a pedestrian as well as a driver or passenger. Car manufacturers now design their cars with pedestrian safety in mind, which never used to happen.
Oh, well, that's good then, and progress has been made.
I hope you're not too upset, I saw your thread.
So, the petrol part of your car, it doesn't have a gearbox?
I'm only upset with TJ, and people who think that I think I'm better than everyone else just cos I didn't want to waste fuel!
The car has two electric motors and a petrol engine, all linked together. One motor gives torque at low speeds, and one power at high speeds. By varying the flow of energy between these two motors (which can also be generators) you can effectively vary the gear ratio, and also take energy from or send energy to the battery. It's really clever, and very small and light (despite what TJ says).
Well I think they're a good idea anyway. Please don't be too upset. TandemJeremy probably feels angry and lonely, so he needs to take it out on someone. It's not very nice really, and hopefully he can think about what he's done. He shouldn't go round upsetting people.
The Prius dashboard does look like the flight deck of a bloody space shuttle though!
[img] 
[/img]
The prius main reason for getting high mpg is low rolling resistance tyres and good aero. Its main advantage is zero emmisions in town. It has marginal effficiency savings from being CVT.
Where did I call yo vain and accuse you of thinking you are better than others -I simply did not. Your interpretation - not anything I said. Point to were I said that
I merely think yo have bought into a greenwash. and if you were serious about mitigating your environmental impact a prius is not the way to go.
You keep going on about tailpipe emmisions and MPG - its only part of the story. total lifetime environmental cost is whats important an on that a prius is not great and is easily beaten by many a car
I would happily do hundreds of miles in the back of a small car. Don't bother me. will do, have done and probably will do again. Yo want a big posh car. A panda wont do for you.
A prius is not small and light - its big and heavy. Of this there is no argument 1.3 tonnes is a heavy car. Look to what someone said above about the weights of a golf.
I think the prius is a great piece of tech but its the wrong answer to the wrong question. Its like catalytic converters - reduces tailpipe emmisions at great environmental cost elsewhere and elsewhen
Molgrips beat me to it.
Ped saftey/protection in the event of a collision is now a main-stream requirement (at least in our region of the world - UK) and has significant effect on the final car design, in the effected areas of the vehicle.
This is an example of a Gov/legislative body, [i]leading[/i] the manufs in a certain direction, of vehicle design.
Of course, something as emotive as people surviving a car crash, whether they are a passenger or a pedestrian, was always going to get, eventually, the politicians, thumping the desk infront of the manufs, until the manufs themselves realise that safety, while introducing extra weight and cost, is actually a very powerful selling point.
As we know this didn't happen over night, look back to the 70s when the wearing of seat belts wasn't compulsory, and you can appreciate the situation of a Gov, getting what it wants from a manuf, can work, albeit, that in the case of safety, it did take a while.
So why are we still burning 100% petrol ?.
Well, the only thing I can think of is that when it came to introducing safety measures, there wasn't another large and powerful industry, losing out.
Put side impact beams in your car, and everyone was a winner.
(large companies pulling stuff out of the ground, weren't effected...)
My short-term choice ?.
IC engines running on synthesized methanol, and if we're talking wish-list.
Then that methanol is produced using bacteria that are formed/created to consume waist that would otherwise linger in the environment, in landfill, or in some other form.
Heard on the radio yesterday that some local authourity plans to power a fleet of vehicle from....human waist, I would assume that the hybrid/batter powered option was considered, but that instead, converted ICs were chosen to use this fuel and drive that fleet of vehicles.
TJI would happily do hundreds of miles in the back of a small car. Don't bother me. will do, have done and probably will do again. Yo want a big posh car. A panda wont do for you.
Great, TJ, you're brilliant. The fact is that many other people (taller ones particularly) do get bothered by it. You're not going to stop people wanting to travel in reasonable comfort or with the ability to carry a reasonable amount of stuff. You call anything bigger than a Panda a posh car. That's a really stupid comment and frankly I suprised at you for putting it up.
So, back to your house, 1 bed, kitchen, 1 living room, 1 bathroom (shower only) and highly insulated with the latest tech highly efficient heating and lighting, I assume?
My flat.1 bed flat. As much insulation as I can get in a 130 yr old building. Its a listed building and an attic flat so It ain't great from an insulation point of view but I have done as much as is possible including crawling round all the eaves spaces stuffing sheets of polystyrene between the ceiling joints. Modern highly efficient boiler and all low energy lights. Its a reasonable compromise
As for the cars - molgrips asked me what he should have done to mitigate his carbon footprint with the cars - thats the answer - a smaller basic car. He does not want to make any compromises and its his choice but it it perfectly realistic for 4 adults to travel with their luggage in a smaller simpler cheaper car than a prius. So if he was serious about mitigating his carbon footprint there are many other better choices than a prius. It just means making some compromises.
Can't disagree with your points there but then that's a big difference from suggesting that it's a posh status symbol car which you rather unkindly have done. Clearly it's bigger than absolutely necessary but that's hardly uncommon.
Back to your flat, really, shouldn't you be moving to somewhere more efficient? You mentioned a reasonable compromise. I reckon that some rabid greenies would say that you're not doing enough because you're still living in an old inefficient house so you should move. Reasonable is subjective and the fact is that many/most people don't consider a Prius to be an unreasonably big family car.
But where did I say its a posh status symbol car? All I tried to do was point out that to mitigate his footprint which is why he claimed to buy the car there are many better cars he could have bought. The prius is clearly not basic family transport.
My flat will still be lived in by someone. Its an important listed building - it is not going to be knocked down and rebuilt. I have spent a lot of time and effort making it as insulated as I can.
I am aware that home energy consumption is where I use more energy than I might. However we all make compromises and thats mine.
But where did I say its a posh status symbol car?
Here:
Yo want a big posh car. A panda wont do for you.
And I think you're misrepresenting what he said about footprint, etc. You might disagree about the necessary size of car he thinks is reasonable but on the basis that he thinks that size is reasonable (along with most people I reckon) and that's the driving factor, it's a question of comparing similar sized cars, not saying that a panda or whatever would be a better alternative.
FWIW, I agree about the Prius - I think they suit the US market and the rules there BUT they have started car manufacturers down a route that might provide some benefit.
Again, it sounds like you've done a lot to make your footprint small and that's great but you're not perfect. On the basis of your car argument, I could say that you should move to a one bed studio that's about 4m square and located somewhere warmer (so less heating) since technically you could live there perfectly well.
TandemJeremy - Member- a smaller basic car. He does not want to make any compromises and its his choice but it it perfectly realistic for 4 adults to travel with their luggage in a smaller simpler cheaper car than a prius.
Once again TJ, it's another LOOK AT ME statement without a single grain of truth in it.
The simple fact is, if you load a small car with a teeny engine with say 400kgs of stuff you're adding almost 50% t its weight and the engine will have to work almost almost twice as hard (work = force*distance) The fuel economny of the smaller car will PLUMMET and the wear on the engine will vastly increase shortening the life of the car.
The test in TopGear about ragging a Prius and an M3 around a track highlighted this in a very simplistic way. If you need to carry things+people all the time small + small engine is not the way to go about it, if you've got even a slight clue about what you're talking about.
Yo want a big posh car. A panda wont do for you.
Oops pretty much bang to rights. 😳
Daffy - you simply miss the point about it being total lifetime envoronmental costs. Very few folk drive a car fully laden all the time - and the smaller lighter car takes less materials and energy to make and dispose of at the end of its life. Its not just about MPG.
Ok - its run its course
You mean you've been taken to task for what some might call bullying of molgrips...
[b]"[i]cars with a petrol/diesel engine AND an electric motor [/i]"[/b]
Aren't the answer, imo.......too running cars with a very much reduced or even no impact on the evironment, from their engine emissions.
Perhaps rather than running around arguing about what car goes furthest, or what car is more costly to deal with envirnomentally, during its life time.
Shouldn't we be just focusing on getting off petrol and diesel altogether, preferrably for something that when it is used to power a car, doesn't contribute to damaging the environment through what its engine emitts ?.
EDIT:
There are a lot of techs out there now, trying to be the answer, ICs combined with electric motors, is one I think we can discount, for the long term future of personal/small group transport.
Agreed Solo. The catch is that the energy density of hydrocarbon is very high compared to batteries or fuel cells. For cars and motorbikes we're best off with internal combustion engines and fuel made from atmospheric CO2 + nuclear power.
Personally I think a fleet of vehicles that lasted 50 years would be a nice move, as long as you only ever took the smallest vehicle neccessary to do the job.
Seeing the commute in the morning, there are so many large 1.5 ton cars with only 1 person in. Only around 5% of what is being moved there is human.
At least bikes always weigh less than the driver!
The prius main reason for getting high mpg is low rolling resistance tyres and good aero. Its main advantage is zero emmisions in town. It has marginal effficiency savings from being CVT.
Not true. My version of the Prius didn't even come with low RR tyres. And it's not zero emissions around town either, as previously discussed.
You have to accept that you are ill informed here TJ I'm afraid.
As for the insults: You need to realise that just because you don't INTEND something to be insulting doesn't mean that it isn't. If you inadvertently say something offensive, that's when apologies are in order. You can't just blame someone else for interpreting what you said wrongly. Especially when you say negative things like 'only a big posh car will do for your family'.
I merely think yo have bought into a greenwash
This is again insulting - it implies that I am gullible, not very intelligent and don't bother to think things through. Being thoughtful is something I strive for all the time, and I value greatly. So you see how an allegation like this can be very insulting.
When I bought my car hardly anyone had heard of it. I hadn't seen ANY marketing or hype about it at all. So I could not have been a victim of greenwash of which I was not aware? After I got the car I did some googling, and found a very active forum in the US which covered loads of issues relating to the car, both technical and social.
Over the car's lifetime you'd save probably 15 tonnes of CO2 emissions over an equivalent diesel (from the time), and I doubt that the battery manufacture is responsible for that much CO2. In the UK at domestic rates (at least) the electricity required to produce that much CO2 would cost over £3,000, and the replacement cost of the entire battery pack (it's modular btw) is only something like £2000 including all the materials. So I think we're still ahead probably.
And as previously pointed out, Priuses are made in a very low carbon factory, so this also saves a lot of those lifetime costs you talk about.
Right back on topic, sort of:
Solo - I think biofuels probably are the answer. However a hybrid biofuel car would still use less biofuel than a normal one, so there's still a place for it.
Biofuels in general pose a lot of problems though. Synthesizing methanol for example is done from petroleum products is it not? And I think it also uses a lot of energy (but I am not sure). There are loads and loads of biofuel types as you know, and I think a combination of these and new un-developed technology could provide enough fuel for us to run on.
I'd consider buying an E85 car if I was changing cars, but the issue here is where the E85 on today's market comes from. Apparently the stuff Morrisson's sell comes from a sugar beet farm in Norfolk, but that can only produce so much. To increase volumes to any useful level would cause terrible problems with the world's food supply.
We need to focus on biofuels, yes, but a much bigger focus is needed on reducing the need to travel altogether. It really pisses me off that I have to spend however many hours schlepping across the country to sit in an office and hardly talk to my colleages. What a downright waste of energy.
I am however working on setting things up so I can work at home in the longer term.
Good move. At least we're not like the US just yet, where a 2 hour commute in a SUV is normal.
Biofuels are one option, but I really struggle to see how we will create as much energy above the ground, as we take from under the ground.
Lots of clever ideas about genetically engineering microbes etc. to create fuel for us. I worry that this is just more short term thinking.
Apparently Henry Ford originally intended the Model T to run on Ethanol,
grown from crops, until some innovative people convinced him it would be much better to use this new discovery, "Rock Oil" 😐
[i]We need to focus on biofuels, yes, but a much bigger focus is needed on reducing the need to travel altogether. It really pisses me off that I have to spend however many hours schlepping across the country to sit in an office and hardly talk to my colleages. What a downright waste of energy.
I am however working on setting things up so I can work at home in the longer term
[/i]
BFs are feasible, but sadly aren't effectivley available, yet, as we know.
BioEthanol (E85) was/is produced, as you point out, from arable crops. These are 1st gen, and yesterdays fuel, albeit somewhat still-born due to lack of outlets, ready vehicles, etc.
Producing BF from petro products would p1ss the whole thing up.
2nd Gen BFs will be GM plankton eating our sh1t to produce a base product for BF.
Theres a lot of energy in sunlight, hence looking to plants as little factories with amazing capabilities, powered by the sun.
😉
Very much agree about working from home. I sooooo wish I could, but my customers need to feel all warm and fuzzy about data security, project management, and those who have climbed the tree, need to justify their reserved parking space with being able to physically see their little empire.
So all the soldiers must be at their desks... 🙁
Mol - okay, you car IS unique. Emissions of a tiny car that has about 1bhp yet big enough for a family and not too slow (seen a few Priuses being driven quite aggressively a few times). And nothing imminent to rival it.
Add the caravan ownership to the Prius purchase and you may get laughed at every now and again though 😉
Off to do some powerslides in my Beemer 😉
so molgrips - I am not even allowed an opinion about things you state - although you are free to throw accusations at me? [i]My opinion [/i]is you have bought into the greenwash on the prius.
Perhaps you should take stuff a little less personally and stop throwing the insults around yourself. You are very offensive to me and others and have been many times including on this thread. You cannot accept being challenged and when you are you resort to insult and bluster.
I find your world view bizarre to say the least and sometime challenge the more ridiculous ( as they appear to me) things you claim.
If you can't take being challenged for your views then don't make the claims.
I would have insisted on working at home on this project, except it's a secure project. The network we work on isn't even connected to the outside world at all.
Hopefully next project I can, and save the client £500/w in expenses...
Biofuels are one option, but I really struggle to see how we will create as much energy above the ground, as we take from under the ground.
We need biofuels for transport, renewables/nuclear for power generation AND a massive reduction in consumption and usage.
This, even with tech available in the short term, could well sort things out.
However there are wider implications. Consider the disposable plastic cups that are available next to our water fountain. We could all use glasses and save all that energy and waste. However, if everyone did it the disposable cup market would collapse and a load of people would be out of work.
Has anyone checked what percentage of our economy is based on environmentally unfriendly stuff? Like disposable things, patio heaters etc etc etc? If we all drove Priuses or Pandas and stopped flying and commuting, how much less oil would come out of the ground, and how much money would our economies lose? We already know how important companies like BP are to us all.
Big issues.
However there are wider implications. Consider the disposable plastic cups that are available next to our water fountain. We could all use glasses and save all that energy and waste. However, if everyone did it the disposable cup market would collapse and a load of people would be out of work.
that is just breathtaking in its ridiculousness! I can't even begin to explain how much!
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I can't even begin to explain how much!
Please try.
For those who have trouble understanding - I was illustrating how waste is integrated into our economy, and the difficulties we may face. [b]I was not advocating that we continue to waste stuff just to feed the economy[/b].
Please, for the love of cycling. Leave it out.
Molgrips. When you upset me, once I pointed it out, at least you had the spine to apologize. Take the positive from that, cos I don't TJ is going to provide any such thing.
TJ. You could try exercising your "I think thats a silly comment - O'meter" [b]filter[/b], and just not fire up the flame-thrower.
You've made some fairly dodgey posts yourself on here, and where as I don't want to argue, I do wish you'd stop hastling Grips.
There, I waded in. happy now ?, both of you should have let-it-go, ages ago.
Please:- CEASE FIRE !
dodgy, hassling, let it go
Just providing a service of course 😉
Yeah, cheers Mat.
I'm usually better, honestly
😉
I've just finished proofing 234 business case studies - it's become an automatic reaction to ar5e crushingly pedantic... 😉
Solo
will do.
TJ is allowed opinions. Sometimes though you're allowed to keep them to yourself, if you think they'll upset others.
I'm gonna swallow all the rest of the stuff I had to say, even though it's hard 🙂
Got another idea for improved fuel consumption:
When cruising in a diesel, you only inject a little fuel - great. However, to burn that you only need a little air, but the engine still compresses 2 litres of air to 18 bar all the same - this is wasteful.
So what about a V6 diesel of say 2 litres with the cams configured on the second bank to leave all valves open the whole time when you're cruising. Some American petrol SUVs already do this, but for diesel it'd be a major improvement. You could also only connect the turbo to the exhaust of the second bank, so the first bank functions purely as a 1 litre 3cyl NA diesel when cruising which would be uber efficient.
Pedal response would be quite slow though - so you could also have a 'sport' button on the dash which overrides all of the above when you want to give it some on windy roads.
All of the above uses tried and proven tech, but would result in a good improvement I reckon.
Yeah, and on that note. I think thats all I can give.
Its BFs if you're asking me.
BFs may power and IC, they may power an electric motor via an IC, but without batteries.
However, in the case of the later, I'd question the effects of sitting near a powerful electric motor, may have on the human body.
But thats a different thread...
😉
