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will 78 mpg do? you'd have t drive it like miss daisy though
<cough> new words are where it's at you know 😉 </cough>
Molgrips. Understood, cheers 😉
[i]Lots of manufs have made strides in improving existing car tech, but how many have come out with completely new propulsion systems for the mass market[/i]
As we all know, stuff has popped up into the news, over the years, but as has been pointed out, we're still stuck with what is generally a 100 year old concept.
Where as we may never be able to get away from needing a steering wheel and seats. As far as power-train/source is concerned, its mostly been massaging the established format.
So, why haven't completely different ideas been touted in an attempt to get off the IC and what it has historically run on ?.
Thats not straight forward. Manufs will argue that so long as a Gov gave them a clear inidication of which Tech a gov would support, then they would make it.
Its a circular arguement though, and for me it translates into:
Manufs: "If you, the Gov, gaurantee us a market from which to fund the new design, we'll swoop in and take the money".
Some Govs are reluctant to put a stake in the ground, for fear of backing the wrong Tech.
We saw this with Gordon Brown and the previous Gov. It seemed, that they were making noises about backing EVs, but as quite alot of people on here seem to realise, EVs aren't the silver bullet some would have us believe.
(I'm not knocking GB or the previous Gov, BTW)
For me this shows how Manufs and Govs are [i]pointing the finger[/i] at each other.
I think I understand why people buy the prius. Imo, that may be misguided, but at least they are showing willing by spending their hard-earned, and in this repsect, the industry is letting the customer down by providing an unsustainable answer, as if we all have to jump onto every concievable alternative, until will land on the right one, and the manufs have made money, and employed loads of people, along the way.
It aint easy to turn this ship around, when you consider how huge this all is.
I would start with having an IC that ran on a sustainable power source, probably liquid form, as the global infrastructure is already in place to handle it.
Then move on from there.
Mol - you forgot about the Polo Bluemotion which isn't tiny. And the Fabia Estate 1.2 greenline. And the Smart cars (admittedly tiny). And Corsa 1.2TDI. And the Peugeot 207 1.6HDI. And the Clio Eco2. And the Seat Ibiza 1.2TDI.And the Fiesta 1.6TDCI Econetic.
All under 100g/km.
none of which backs up this asseterion that it is somehow a new engine technology??
It's a new powertrain rather than a new engine, granted. Although, did you know that the petrol engine is also a pseudo-atkinson cycle engine - with a longer power stroke than exhaust stroke? Another cool thing they've done.
Bring on the Porsche, bring on all the innovations 🙂 Can't wait for my 200mpg pod car.
Mat - all those cars are very much smaller than a Prius, and still more CO2 and NOx. Not to mention slower.
I think Vauxhall are doing one of the new type of hybrids (Electric driven with petrol engine to extend the range).
[url= http://www.reghardware.com/2010/06/25/preview_e_car_vauxhall_ampera/ ]http://www.reghardware.com/2010/06/25/preview_e_car_vauxhall_ampera/[/url]
From what I saw in the article, it has many of the things that we have been discussing here already, and looks better (slightly) than a lot of other cars on the roads today.
Mat - all those cars are very much smaller than a Prius, and still more CO2 and NOx. Not to mention slower.
A 207 is about the same size inside. And none use horrendous chemicals and incredibly hard to extract nickel in large quantities. Most are made in one country, not all over the World and most will be more recyclable than a Prius - the battery in a Prius will be a total nightmare to get rid of.
Solo - good post. You are quite correct, we need new fuel very urgently. In comparison with this challenge though, getting more mpg from a fossil fuel car is child's play. Ideas for this are queued up enough to last us a few decades. I remember tomorrow's world talking about hybrids when I was a kid, and it took 20 years for petrol to get expensive enough to make it worth while.
However, be comforted somewhat to know that a lot of people are racing to make sustainable biofuels a workable solution. Although I wish there was more money going into it. If someone could start a state-owned well funded programme for this and license the technology, that country would never have to tax its citizens again 🙂
A 207 is about the same size inside
You're having a laugh, aren't you?
According to Yahoo autos US site, [url= http://autos.yahoo.com/2009_toyota_prius_touring-specs/ ]the Prius[/url] has the same interior passenger volume as [url= http://autos.yahoo.com/2008_volkswagen_passat_wagon_lux-specs/ ]the Passat estate[/url].
Mat, have you ever sat in a prius? You don't do your argument any favours when you try and say a prius is the same size as a 207 or a fabia
molgrips - Member
I stand corrected.What car is that engine in tho?
Fiat 500.
They also have a 109hp version that produces 97g/km that will go into the ALFA Mito and Fiat's version of it.
I didn't say it was the same size as the cars I listed - just that they all get close to/beat the Prius on emissions.
As for a 207 which IS a similar size - it's the same height and width (exactly) as a Prius and has a slightly shorter wheelbase - most of the reduced space however is in the boot, not the passenger compartments.
the battery in a Prius will be a total nightmare to get rid of
Yeah? They can be recycled.
Mat, stop spouting nonsense. 207 is a small car, Prius is a family sized car. Please. I checked online and the Prius is 17" longer than the Peugeot. So it's bigger - by a fair margin. Also the Prius bonnet is a lot smaller.
Prius, size-wise, sits between a Golf and a Passat. Trust me.
[i]The environmental impact of the car's batteries has been questioned, though Toyota offers a US$200 "bounty" for recycled batteries to try and prevent any [b]toxins[/b] from entering the environment. An independent commodities consultant called the Prius "the biggest user of rare earths of any object in the world."[/i]
Hmmm - doesn't sound all that convincing to me. Is it Toyota claiming they can be recycled? Has anyone independently verified this claim?
Although, did you know that the petrol engine is also a pseudo-atkinson cycle engine - with a longer power stroke than exhaust stroke? Another cool thing they've done.
...but you can't break the laws of thermodynamics - cool, m'be, but it's tickling the problem. Everyone is chasing ever more marginal gains at higher and higher cost and complexity.
I bet you didn't check the wheelbase though did you? Not a lot of difference. Same height cabin, same width cabin, slightly longer wheelbase. The Prius has a bigger boot but this robs more cabin space. Hardly "having a laugh."
207 is a small car
I suppose in 2010 it is.....
205 was a small car. 206 got bigger. 207 got bigger again. While it's not exactly huge, it's definitely not a "small car" any more.
Is it Toyota claiming they can be recycled?
They can be. Lots of companies all over doing battery recycling of all kinds - NiMH being one.
I've never sat in a 207, but it's in the same market segment as Polo, Ibiza, Yaris and so on, is it not?
Have you been in a new Prius? This is a stupid argument. It's not the same size class of car, no-one else in the world thinks it is apart from you Mat.
Have you read any 2009 Prius reviews?
The Prius copes well with carrying five people. The cabin has impressive head- and legroom all round, and because there's a flat floor in the back, middle-seat passengers even have somewhere to put their feet. The boot is a good size despite the high floor, and there's more storage space underneath, too.
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Pedantry about Peugeot passenger volume aside...
Surely the problem is we are all wed to our cars?
Fewer journeys by car would have a bigger impact on CO2 then running a petrol electric hybrid. Changing people attitudes to transportation is the answer.
[i]Another plus point for the 207 is the amount of room inside. At the model’s launch Peugeot confidently declared that this car was big enough to entice drivers from the lower-medium sector.
Having run a 207 on long-term test we can certainly back up that claim. There is enough room for four adults to sit comfortably inside and a boot that can handle their luggage.
[/i]
Yep. Starting with employers getting people to home-work more. Much more.
In the mean time, in addition to working towards this, car manufs can make their stuff more economical.
For The 207 is a brilliant all-rounder with a desirable image, high-quality cabin and smooth drive. It's pretty quiet, too, unless you drive it hardAgainst It's pricey, and performance in some versions is flat. [b]Most rivals have more rear legroom[/b], and the ride is firm in the heavy diesel versions
Do you think this stupid argument is actually worth anything?
We're arguing about the relative sizes of two cars you apparently haven't seen up close.
I'm out of this one.
We work from home as do all the freelancers we use.
We very rarely fly and if we do, it's not long haul.
We grow our own veg and/or source it from our own county, same with meat and fish.
We do very low mileages in our cars.
Now Mol, do you do all these things too? Or is the Prius an attempt to minimise the impact of what you do which I believe includes lots of flying and commuting to various jobs...
As for the 207/Prius thing - sorry but you are just as guilty as I am of going on and on about it. And yes, I have sat in a 207 and a neighbour has a Prius which I've looked around. The Prius is bigger but not "laughably" different.
Game, set and match.
For christ's sake Mat, this is not a personal green-ness competition. It's a discussion about car fuel economy technology.
For christ's sake Mat, this is not a personal green-ness competition. It's a discussion about car fuel economy technology.
Yes it is when it suits you but it then becomes an "I'm greener than all of you" competition when that suits you better. It's a fairly standard tactic of the "I'm never wrong" internet forum user.
WTF? Where the Flying f*ck have I ever tried to make out I'm greener than everyone else?
I've said repeatedly I'm not that green - you can search if you like.
All I did was by an economical car, for christ's sake!
You spent a lot on that "economical" car though and you fight very hard to justify it...
So why the extra outlay on something like that if not to be "greener" than everyone else (without one)? A slightly less economical car could have been far cheaper to buy. It's quite a leap of faith to spend that sum on a "green" car if you aren't committed in other aspects of your life...
Ok, I'm calmer now. Let's look at this.
I fly and drive a lot. So my carbon footprint is not small.
Given that, why would I be claiming to be green? Either
a) I'm a raving moron with little grasp on reality or
b) we're misunderstanding each other.
Why does everyone on this forum automatically assume a) ? Surely b) is much more likely?
So why the extra outlay on something like that if not to be "greener" than everyone else
Interesting that you think it's a personal thing.
I splashed out on the car because I liked it, my wife liked it, it was economical, and cool.
Why would you think it's about proving myself against other people? A lot of people do not care what other people think about their car. Do you understand this?
It's easy to buy a more economical car. Far more difficult than denying my wife the chance to see her family, or not marrying her in the first place. Also much harder than saying no to the extra money I earn by working away from home.
Jeez. Get a room you two.
FWIW I think petrol electric hybrids are a pretty good idea and can be potentially used in a number of different ways.
I'd like to see KERS in a road car. 95% of the time you have an economical 1.6 litre petrol engine with say 110hp and low emmission. But it has a light weight electric motor with batteries (or large capacitors) then can be used for overtaking and pulling away from rest.
There would obviously be a weight penalty but it could be made much lighter than a full hybrid system
EDIT Think of it as a Priuslite or Hybridcore
That's basically what it is, rich.
Prius is what, 90bhp from the normal engine. The electric motor only gets used when you boot it, or when going really slowly.
*/make things worst he he /*
On my motorbike I get 4l per 100 km so much more fuel efficient than the prius. There is a minimal amount of electronics and plastic. Only the essentials so it can be repaired/recycled easily.
Plus I can kick the living shit out of a prius or a 207 on the road. Journey in town are shorter as I can filter traffic...
So SRX 1 - prius 0
mwah ha ha ha ha ha...
Volvo are/were working on an estate that did 150mpg+
Used a tiny petrol engine, driving a generator/electric motor/Kers/battery system. More like a train with kers/battery boost, than a prius.
So SRX 1 - prius 0
Does your motorbike have isofix child seat points? No? Oh!
Motorbikes have lame fuel economy, considering how little they weigh and how little they can carry.
WTf would I want a child seat (but they are available). ooOOoo Are you sure about that? What car gives you a 4l per 100 kms with the same performances :p
Plus molgrips hates them so it's good to get him wound up from times to times...
Quite enough winding up of the molgrips on this thread today 🙁
I'd quite like a child seat on my transportation, me having a child and everything 🙂
Juan - if your motorbike is 4L/100km = 0.9 gallons of fuel per 62 miles, which means that AT BEST you're only equalling the Pious on fuel and molgrips has 4 seats, a boot and isn't dressed in a leather romper suit when at work or home.
FAIL!
High5 Daffy 🙂
I'd quite like a child seat [b]on[/b] my transportation,
You stick your child ON the car? That must mean on the roof?
CALL SOCIAL SERVICES!!
Read some of this post with interest earlier, some lively debate going on 😉
Then saw this and thought I'd throw it into the equation:
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/05082010/36/tom-hanks-eco-conversion-0.html
