Try the later pages of [url= http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-main-forum/57091-200-000-mile-club-13.html ]this thread[/url] for Prius longevity stories. Loads going over 200k miles without battery problems it looks like - although only skimmed a few pages.
[i]Yes, you bloody well did. You insulted me[/i]
Well **** me. Molgrips exposed in "Can't take it, but likes to give it", shocker.
Not so nice when the boot is on the other foot is it Grips ?.
OK, I think I'm starting to understand this bit about efficiency and economy.
An engine may be most efficient at, say, 80% of maximum power, but if it only needs 20% of maximum power to sustain the cars speed, there's going to have to be some compromise on economy somewhere.
The only way round that with a conventional engine and transmission would be to design cars that need 80% of their maximum power to sustain 70mph, but take two minutes to get there. Like a Series Two Land Rover 😀
Flipping eck - we buys cars for different reasons but if any of us were truly green, we'd cycle everywhere.
Unless you do cycle anywhere, never fly, don't buy anything from outside your county and are self sustainable, it's pretty off to preach to others.
I'm sure most of us try where we can but we can all try harder.
As for small engines - our 1.3 litre 85bhp petrol car produces MORE C02 than a 3.0 twin turbo nr 300bhp 335d (the more recent one than ours - ours is just over 200g/km - still not bad). And a 165bhp BMW 320d ED produces less than almost every car in production. Not saying BMW are the be all and end all but I think their leaps in emissions are better than Toyota's dodgy efforts.
And look at all the millions of Toyota recalls - a HUGE impact on planet Earth.
[i]Its you that are trying to justify the unjustifiable. if you really wanted to reduce your footprint you would have a smaller simpler lighter car.[/i]
While I don't 'buy' in to the idea of getting a car purely due to mpg, what TJ is saying is really bollocks - as he's just not understanding that if you have a family you need a car that can carry them and all their pariphenalia in comfort and safety.
While I don't 'buy' in to the idea of getting a car purely due to mpg, what TJ is saying is really bollocks - as he's just not understanding that if you have a family you need [b](to maintain the standard of living to which you are accustomed)[/b] a car that can carry them and all their pariphenalia in comfort and safety.
There, that's better.
Not to mention that he's posting a black or white argument. You can choose to reduce your footprint by what you consider a reasonable amount while still keeping what you consider a decent sized car for your needs/wants. YMMV but unless you have a zero carbon footprint, it's just a question of magnitude. TJ, you ride motorbikes for fun, don't you? You therefore choose to do a non-zero carbon activity.
Well **** me. Molgrips exposed in "Can't take it, but likes to give it", shocker.
I don't like to give it. When TJ really upsets me, I get angry. I don't randomly insult him unless he's been being an arse to be on other threads.
I don't mind being called an arse or a tw*t, but I do mind very much indeed being called vain and precious. This is much more of an insult than some angry four letter words.
ours is just over 200g/km - still not bad
200g/km is absolutely shockingly bad!
Not saying BMW are the be all and end all but I think their leaps in emissions are better than Toyota's dodgy efforts
BMW and everyone else should be applauded for making greener cars. However Toyota's efforts are not dodgy at all. Well over a million Priuses have been sold, mostly in America where they are often replacing cars that use two or three times more fuel. They've also created from nothing a market for hybrids and economical cars in the US which has led to all the other manufacturers having to focus on economy far more than ever before. Now almost every manufacturer is heavily pushing fuel economy in their advertising. It's made Ford produce hybrids, and Chevrolet put the R&D into the Volt which could be a fantastic machine. One could also easily conclude that it kick started the wave of green editions of other cars eg BMW Efficient Dynamics, VW Bluemotion, Ford Eco-tec and so on. Toyota have also put a lot of effort into developing sustainable manufacturing processes.
Not a dodgy effort AT ALL.
And a 165bhp BMW 320d ED produces less than almost every car in production
Not really - 109g/km isn't it? Same as my car. Don't get me wrong - nice car, but I would be impressed if anyone could get the supposed 62mpg out of it. I'd test drive one if I could afford it.
Good point, 5-6 years ago the notion of a hybrid was still treehugging greenie nonesense to most people. Now they are out there on the roads, and people understand the technology.
Perosnally I got rid of my car 5 years ago, when I moved out of a village.
I realised I was pushing 1.2 tons of metal round the earth every year. Crazy & self-indulgent.
mostly in America where they are often replacing cars that use two or three times more fuel. They've also created from nothing a market for hybrids and economical cars in the US which has led to all the other manufacturers having to focus on economy far more than ever before
While I don't think much of the Prius in itself, this is a fair point, particularly the one about US cars that they replace typically being much bigger than the cars we might replace in Europe.
200g/km - your Passat is over 160g/km yet has less than half the power. I'd say 200g/km is pretty flipping good actually.
One of the reasons for which I bought the Prius was to support the technology, so in a small way contributing to the above.
Toyota have also put a lot of effort into developing sustainable manufacturing processes.
This being the same Toyota, who through dodgy cost cutting efforts, have been responsible for the death and injury of a rather high number of people...
I lost faith in Toyota a long time ago.
Mat, if only the CO2/power ratio was important - your car would be great! It's not, however.
And yes, the Passat is bad, and it was not a good purchase 🙁
How many people is that out of interest?
Toyota's ability to manufacture something and their technology strategy are quite different things...
This being the same Toyota, who through dodgy cost cutting efforts, have been responsible for the death and injury of a rather high number of people...
On what planet did this happen?
I thought they bought something in from a supplier that under incredibly obscure circumstances that could never be found in normal testing caused a dangerous fault and caused a couple of fatal accidents. And then bent over backwards to fix it at huge cost. Or was that not how it happened?
It says 'we didn't test enough' not 'we tried to cut corners on quality'. Doesn't mention reducing costs, only increasing volume.
But this is pointless. Toyota have done a great thing in creating the eco-car market from scratch in only a few years. The fact that they had a fault is not related, as clubber says.
A fault? LOADS of models were recalled and not for the same reasons. You are falling for the hype and saying Toyota are some sort of green champions - the same company that makes the V8 2.5 tonne Landcruiser, the same company that is trying to take over the car world - nope, I don't buy it. They make dull cars for the masses and spout BS to try and sell more.
As for being green - you fly a lot don't you?
They make dull cars for the masses and spout BS to try and sell more.
"Dull cars for the masses" - sounds like you fall for car makers' BS too then 😉
Drive the new XXX C0ck wagon. It'll make you stand out from the masses
Mat, this thread is not an "I'm greener than you" competition. We've been through this all before.
Every manufacturer makes SUVs, don't they? People want to buy them, and if a manufacturer wants to use the profits from those people to fund eco car development, then that's fine.
They've done a lot for the green car market - that's a fact. So have VW in the past (pioneering the refined passenger diesel in the late 70s) and probably some others.
They make dull cars for the masses
To be fair - and leaving the quality aspects to one side for a moment, this is exactly where the money is and what most people want. The average school run mum (and dad for that matter) doesn't care much beyond where the petrol goes in, what colour it is and how much it costs.
A few people on this thread need to get a grip. People have different opinions, get over it. Way up there ^ I made my point, nothing more to say. Do you guys have nothing better to do with your time? Turn the computers off and save some CO2.
Dull cars for the masses including the most innovative mass market car in the last 20 years.
Dull cars for the masses including the most innovative mass market car in the last 20 years.
In your opinion...
What else is more innovative? It's comparable with VW's push to develop diesel I reckon, that was in the late 70s to early 80s.
There was originally one type of car engine. VW made it two, Toyota made it three. That's my definition of innovation.
[i]I don't like to give it.[/i]
BS, Molgrips. You insulted me on the cycle helmet thread.
You never gave a damn. I invited you to correct your post, and nothing.
You hand it out, but you can't take it.
BoT.
FWIW, I reckon it all starts with the fuel. Imo, We've got to sort it out, and get off the texas-tea.
Annoys me when I read press releases from the US, raving about getting 23mpg average, from a monster of a car, and how that betters the competition by.....1 mpg !!!
Yes, cars could be more basic/lighter, in the quest for greater mpgs, but I say get cars onto a sustainable power source. Surely thats got to be the highest priority.
Strange how you own a VW and a Toyota of course...
Loads of manufacturers has brought plenty of innovation to the car market - Mercedes have done plenty, BMW has shown how efficiency doesn't have to mean Prius like "qualities" in a car, Citroen has done plenty for suspension innovation, Audi has shown the way for alu construction, niche manufacturers have made carbon a sensible option, Peugeot and Audi have brought mega diesel performance to Le Mans, the list goes on and on and on.
Easy to justify what you've bought but to then proclaim each brand as the paragon of innovation is taking brand loyalty/blindness to the extremes.
That's my definition of innovation.
This is actually a gripe of mine (...and where I might come dangerously close to agreeing with TJ...) If you put a Model T Ford and a Yaris side by side, you could wander round them and identify all the key features in the same places (front wheel drive and heap of electric gadgets, as TJ points out, aside). There's nearly 100 years between them?!?! Where's my nuclear powered hovercar, eh?!?!?! It's still a f'ing metal box with an IC engine and a wheel at each corner?!?!? You could argue that Uncle Henry got it right first time, or that we as the public are so conditioned as to what a car shoudl look like that, bar a few niches, no volume manufacturer will go out on a limb for fear of committing commercial suicide. Parallel hybrid is but a tiny limp forward based on current economic needs, IMHO, not a step change in thinking.
BS, Molgrips. You insulted me on the cycle helmet thread.
You never gave a damn. I invited you to correct your post, and nothing.You hand it out, but you can't take it.
Sorry mate. Apologies for that, although I don't remember. It's possible that I wasn't intending to be insulting! I apologise unreservedly.
We've got to sort it out, and get off the texas-tea.
Absolutely.
Easy to justify what you've bought but to then proclaim each brand as the paragon of innovation is taking brand loyalty/blindness to the extremes.
Mate, I bought the Prius BECAUSE I thought it was innovative. I didn't buy it randomly then try to justify it. What a strange idea!
niche manufacturers have made carbon a sensible option
Lol. I didn't see any carbon cars on the forecourt at Sinclair VW 🙂
I agree, PSA have done a lot for diesel tech. Lots of manufs have made strides in improving existing car tech, but how many have come out with completely new propulsion systems for the mass market?
Toyota
GM
VW or PSA for developing diesels.
Parallel hybrid is but a tiny limp forward based on current economic needs, IMHO, not a step change in thinking.
Fair point in the wider scheme of things.
So in order of innovation it'd be:
1. Inventing an entirely new transport system
2. Inventing a new kind of engine
3. Inventing new manufacturing techniques
4. Tweaking existing stuff to make it significantly better
Still waiting for #1 to happen. #2 has been done a few times, #3 was done by Ford, and #4 by the likes of BMW, PSA, Ford, Lotus, VW and happens once a year ish.
molgrips - MemberIt is by far the most economical petrol car. All other cars that come close are diesel, and a litre of diesel produces more CO2 and a lot more other pollutants than a litre of petrol.
Not strictly true, the new Fiat Multiair engine produces 85bhp and only 92g/km. The weight of the car is also reduced by over 100kg, meaning a 0-62 time of less than 10 seconds.
I agree on Diesel though....it's the fuel of the devil in terms of environmental damage.
agree, PSA have done a lot for diesel tech. Lots of manufs have made strides in improving existing car tech, but how many have come out with completely new propulsion systems for the mass market?Toyota
GM
VW or PSA for developing diesels.
First widely available common rail diesel was actually (and this surprised me) an Alfa...
But, with tongue only slightly in cheek, the Prius is an electric milk float from the 70's with a petrol engine in it to cope with charging the batteries and lopping power demand for a bit more performance. The latest technologies have been pooled from other industries to do it - there was a tehnical challenge to pull it all together into something that felt like a car to drive and could be sold for a similar money so it was economic.... but, IMO, to claim it is a new kind of engine is pushing it. If they'd been first-to-market with a mass produced fuel cell car and the infrastructure to back it up then I would have stood up and clapped as loadly as anyone else!!
I stand corrected.
What car is that engine in tho?
1997 156 1.9JTD. Merc followed soon afterwards (same year) with a 220CDI.
But, with tongue only slightly in cheek, the Prius is an electric milk float from the 70's with a petrol engine in it to cope with charging the batteries and lopping power demand for a bit more performance.
It's a looooong way from that. Electric cars have indeed been around for a long time, but they've always been rubbish due to battery technology. The Prius is a petrol car with a battery to help it out. Totally different thing. Main fuel is petrol, that's all you put into it.
It's a parallel hybrid. This means that you can vary the amount of power coming from the petrol engine AND going to or from the wheels or the engine to the battery via the motor/generators. Very clever bit of kit indeed. The heart of it is a Power Split Device invented by someone outside of Toyota I believe and patented - but developed by Toyota.
The Chevy volt is more like a milk float with a genny to charge it up, as you describe. Although it's a lot more sophisticated! You make it sound like increasing battery energy density to useful levels is a simple task!
Mat, I meant what car is the multi-air engine in that does 92g/km CO2? The question was aimed at Daffy.
Still uses nimH batteries though which are ooooold technology...
porsche are making a hybrid too:
[url= http://www.inhabitat.com/2010/03/02/918-spyder-is-porsches-first-ever-plug-in-hybrid-electric-car/ ]http://www.inhabitat.com/2010/03/02/918-spyder-is-porsches-first-ever-plug-in-hybrid-electric-car/[/url]
[i]It also supposedly gets 78 miles per gallon, has emissions of 70g CO2/km, can go 16 miles on electric charge alone, and does 0-60 in just 3.2 seconds.[/i]
interesting.
Ooops - Fiat Panda
Not much new under the sun - I guess most car drivers are waiting for some magic bullet engine that will make a 2 ton vehicle sip like a hummingbird....not going to happen. Yes most tech is a combination of what went before. Innovation is often in the eye of the beholder. Fuel cells would be shiny n new, to give that novelty factor, but they just haven't been refined like the IC engine.
The energy density of petrol is amazing, and that's what we are used to. Most other tech looks weak in comparison. My analogy is that everyone's addicted to crack, and a nice cup of tea just doesn't look enticing as a replacement. The problem was getting used to crack in the first place.
For car size vehicles I think this is maybe as good as we can get...around 200mpg
[img] 
[/img]
http://www.terrapass.com/blog/posts/clean-car-round-up
It's a looooong way from that. Electric cars have indeed been around for a long time, but they've always been rubbish due to battery technology. The Prius is a petrol car with a battery to help it out. Totally different thing. Main fuel is petrol, that's all you put into it.It's a parallel hybrid. This means that you can vary the amount of power coming from the petrol engine AND going to or from the wheels or the engine to the battery via the motor/generators. Very clever bit of kit indeed. The heart of it is a Power Split Device invented by someone outside of Toyota I believe and patented - but developed by Toyota.
I completely get and understand all of that - none of which backs up this asseterion that it is somehow a new engine technology?? Everything you've just written supports it being a smart piece of integration with technology culled from elsewhere. IIRC the power split-thingy came out of the turbine industry for balance loading multiple power sources (I have no source for that - a client was telling me about the technolgy behind it while back as they do similar clever things.)
That is truly the nub of the issue.... well said.The energy density of petrol is amazing, and that's what we are used to.
Edit - it's a Fiat 500.
The fact that the only other cars that come close to the new Prius for CO2 are tiny city cars tells me how good Toyota's efforts are.
Still uses nimH batteries though which are ooooold technology...
Yep, but reliable and long lived. They were apparently going to put Li-ion batteries in the 2009 Prius but they weren't up to scratch at the time, so they released it with NiMHs. When they finally do get it sorted, you'll be able to plug it in and get a 40 mile range on electric only power.
asseterion
Now that's what I call a new word...
