[i]and of course a 500 kg car could be made safe. How heavy is a smart? Whats its Ncap rating? ( well maybe 500 kg is a bit light but you get my point)[/i]
No, lets not generalise like that. How many people have a use for a Smart car ?. There are more Mondeos on the road than Smart two seaters.
This inidicates that there is a size-of-vehicle demand.
[i]It would have to lose all the gadgets so beloved of modern motorists tho[/i]
Agreed. But you sell someone today, a car with no aircon, manual windows, etc.....
Again, customer driven, don't bash the manufs.
[i]Unless you reduce the amount of materials in a car any "greening" remains greenwash[/i]
Agreed ^^^
[i]Biofuels from crops can never work - there simply is not enough arable land to make enough fuel[/i]
Very limited thinking here. Ocean testing using ocean based plants is already taking place... 😉
[i]Lightweight technologies exist, the problem is cost.[/i]
Exactly. Carbon-monocoqe mondeo anyone ?.
just dont mention the resin/recycle-ability of CFblah, blah***
[i]Car manufacturers are proft-driven[/i]
Yes, as well as car prices are market driven.
£60,000, CF Aygo, anyone, anyone ?
[i]again not in the manufacturers interests[/i]
Wrong again. Manufs bring new cars as a practical function of tool wear and [b]customer/market demand for [i]new[/i] cars.[/b]
Production tools wear-out. When they do, you either re-produce those tools and keep knocking out the same car for more and more money, like whos going to pay more for the same car/10 year old design(workforce wage demands/inflation). Or, faced with the prospect of ordering new tooling, you produce a new car, which can incorporate new design features for...safety and economy.
Knocking-out the same car for 300 years isn't a flyer, imo.
[i]NO car manufacturer will do this tho as it has no profit in it.[/i]
Again, not correct, please, please understand Manufs have to respond to what WE buy and what Govs suggest they would like to have offered for sale. Blamming the Manufs alone, isn't really addressing the issue.
Lots of carrots and sticks are required, but Joe Public has a hand in this too. Shouldn't the new-car buying public get-real too ?.
BMW wouldn't shift a single X5, if people decided that they we're going to descriminate against stupidly sized soft-roaders.
And while I'm here. WTF is that BMW monster that looks part X5 and part coupe.
Imo, that car really takes the P155 out of trying to address car emssions/fossil fuel consuption.
br - thats a serial hybrid propulsion system, which molgrips kindly pointed out as I went slightly off-topic in post #1 😉 That has as much to do with power delivery characteristics (electric: peak torque at zero revs, commpared to IC: peak torque at nearly peak revs) as efficiency.
I don't think you'll need taxation for those kind of prices at that kind of timescale. Cost of extraction and open market demand will do it soon enough.£25+ per gallon at todays prices( ratchet it up over 20 yrs)
I think we've done the car is bad/what will happen when the oil runs out to death before and is drifitng off of the OP's more technical question. As an alternative to hybrid electric, BMW are looking at adding a a medium pressure heat recovery system from the coolant system and exhaust to power a steam turbine directly attached to the crank shaft. Adds a further 10/15% to the overall thermal efficieny of the engine. Planned to be added to road cars in the next 5 years (IIRC) if development contiunes on track.....
That would be the monumentally ugly BMW X6 then.
Truly a pointless car that has but a single purpose in life: to tell people that they wanted a BMW _AND_ a 4x4, but have no taste and no ability to understand the fundamental role of a 4x4.
[i]As an alternative to hybrid electric, BMW are looking at adding a a medium pressure heat recovery system from the coolant system and exhaust to power a steam turbine directly attached to the crank shaft. Adds a further 10/15% to the overall thermal efficieny of the engine. Planned to be added to road cars in the next 5 years (IIRC) if development contiunes on track..... [/i]
I'd love to see that work in -30 degrees, +40 degrees.
Where does the steam come from ?.
From waste heat from the engine.
Errr, yeah, heat is required for steam....What else though...
Edit:
That X6 hacks me off largely. What it says is
"Ha, I'm looking as if I'm rich, and whether I am or not, I'm going to make no attempt to contribute to a cleaner enviro.
Instead I'm going to let you do that while I tank around, in my tank"
Yeah, I do not like those cars, and I'm not sure I'd like the owner either.
Well obviously...
Where does the steam come from
Hot water from the coolant (with the water jacket extended to cover any remotely hot part of the block, plus INSULATION around the engine), further heated by a water jacket all the way along the exhaust system. You easily get >100 deg from the current cooling system, so by presurising it a bit more and stalling the flow longer around the engine (the complete opposite of what a current cooling system does - i.e. remove heat as effiicently as possible) you can get enough energy to do useful work.
This inidicates that there is a size-of-vehicle demand.
Yes, but...
Shouldn't the new-car buying public get-real too ?
How many 4/5/6/7 seat cars are regularly used with more than 2 occupants?
Clearly this is a difficult one to solve as many people buy bigger cars because they need the extra space [i]sometimes[/i]. However, the point about efficiency/benefits of much smaller cars could be relevant in many cases.
The Toyota iQ and T25 look at ways of using the space inside a small car more effectively (both having 3 seat potential).
So, clubber, steam turbine in a car. Wheres the water coming from ?
Its quite heavy stuff too, IIRC.
🙄
Yes, I understand that thanks. Doesn't mean it can't be made to work. Look up the specifics of what BMW are doing them post specific criticisms please rather than just vague 'it won't work'.
Not that I like Beamers.
Wouldn't change-of-state in the water reduce its cooling effect.
Engine block water is pressurized to increase boiling point, in order to allow the water to carry more heat away from the hot-bits.
Allowing steam to occur in the system ?, wouldn't that reduce system pressure ?.
Also, engine coolant isn't just water, boiling it would cause issues.
Generally, I've yet to be convinced on that one.
I wouldn't have an issue with a 7 seater carrying one person if the vehicle ran on a [b]fuel[/b] which had much less enviro impact, or better, none at all, and was infinately reproduceable, cleanly.
Otherwise, Bus for the family, Aygos for all license holders of the house ?
Taxation ?, whos that going to hurt the most ?, those who can least afford it.
Anyone who suggests the £25 gallon, doesn't own or have to re-fuel a car, and so by that fact, has to have that comment ignored.
Allowing steam to occur in the system ?, wouldn't that reduce system pressure ?.Also, engine coolant isn't just water, boiling it would cause issues
You don't boil water it in the cooling system - as you say, in current engines it is pressurised so it doesn't. By throttling the high pressure temp liquid back into ambient air, you get wet steam to drive the turbine. As energy is extracted from the steam it cools to liquid water again and is pumped back into the cooling circuit. The technology isn't new, but the application is.
Again, this is drifting off-topic somewhat - this was meant simply as an example of an alternative 'hybrid' technology and the fact that there is now an economic and political/marketing driver to invest in bringing these technologies to market.... but not yet a business case to move away from oil based fuels.
I thought of this heat recovery system a while back 🙂
It's worth noting that once you have a hybrid electric system, you could scavenge electrical energy from all sorts of places. A steam turbine generator system driven from a heat exchanger in the exhaust for one, and the coolant for another. You could also have inductive dampers on the suspension generating current. Or, for a fairly straightforward upgrade you could stick a generator on the end of a turbo and generate leccy from the engine waste heat that way. Loads of options.
TJ - you're being a bit silly to be recommending tiny cars as a replacement for big cars. Of course it's more economical to drive a tiny car. But today, people want crash protection, comfort and a car big enough to carry a family around in. We upgraded from a Seat Ibiza to the Prius because we were going to want to carry adult passengers about in relative comfort.
I'd love a hybrid Yaris, if they made one. Unfortunately I can't afford three or four cars, one for every possible eventuality. If I could though, I would! (and keep them for a long time too, before anyone starts going on about changing cars every three years as if all eco-car owners have to do that).
You're better off hanging onto a V8 Range Rover for 25 years and really looking after it than buying a new car to try and ease your guilt.
Mat - what if your old range rover has just died? This is the point. No-one's advocating changing your car all the time, what we are advocating is that when you DO need to change your car, get a more eco one. What's the problem with that?
You and TJ are making up straw men, I'm afraid.
So you're telling me that a Prius is more environmentally friendly over its life than a Series III Landy running on chip fat?
Not necessarily. Waste chip fat is great, but there's very little of that around compared to petroleum. If you start growing crops for fuel you get into a world of trouble. Even Bush's fairly tame biofuel programme has tripled the cost of corn in Mexico and other places already. We need land for food - stopping growing food just so you can cruise around in a V8 landy when people are starving is deeply immoral, don't you think?
Biofuels do however have a lot of potential, and in 20-30 years we might really see that. Oceanic algae, biofuel crops on marginal land, cellulosic ethanol from waste or wood etc etc are all great possibilities.
So, clubber, steam turbine in a car. Wheres the water coming from ?
It gets recycled... Although you still need to lose some heat for this system to work.
A prius in city conditions is using 0 petrol. Beat that in your conventional car.
Not for long. The battery only powers the car for about 2 miles at best (although they are workign on one that'll do 40 miles). However, it loses a lot less MPG in town than other cars when you do town driving. I go from say 63mpg motorway to about 56 in town (best figures), whereas my Passat TDI goes from about 55mpg to 35mpg.
I'm pretty sure that it's also partly because diesel is a dirtier fuel in the US. I know a couple of years ago modern 'clean' diesels like we have in Europe weren't possible over there because of the fuel quality.
True - but it's also a dirty fuel here. It produces a lot of NOx (which is an irritant and causes smog) and diesel soot particles. These particles have been implicated in some very bad things.
The prius is a bit greenwashy. After maybe 15 years and 200k+ miles it might offset the extra production costs and environmental impacts, but how many are likely to see that?
Priuses are very reliable. The can easily rack up 200k miles and plenty more. The Prius is a brilliant bit of automotive engineering, and is full of cool stuff that you lot don't know about. For example, we all know that most engine wear happens in the first few seconds of driving, right? Well the Prius uses almost all battery power (unless you boot it) for the first minute or so of driving, until the oil's warmed a bit and circulated about the engine, to protect it. I don't think the car's old enough to start seeing the benefits from that yet, but I bet you'll see far fewer of them blowing smoke in 10 years time.
X6 may be daft but it gets rave reviews from the motoring press 😉
And with the most popular 35d diesel unit, it's emissions are probably lower than many of your cars.
You're better off directing your anger at ridiculous massive hybrid 4x4s like the Lexus rx400h or the even sillier GS450h.
Mol - you are still conveniently dodging the battery manufacturing issue... And you are better off fixing that RR than buying a whole new car.
Solo - I don't work in the auto industry btw, but sometimes I wish I did 🙂
The coolant steam turbine thing does still need a radiator of some kind to disperse some heat - the turbine needs a hot side and a cold side to work, otherwise the steam won't be able to expand into anything. Or you need two water pumps - one normal one and one to force water back into the block to create enough of a vacuum to allow steam expansion on the cold side of the turbine.
But I agree on the £25/gallon petrol. TJ should note that there is already a 95mpg car out (Seat Ibiza Ecomotion) with petrol at what, £5-6/gal. All you'd do with that kind of taxation would be strangle the economy severely. Unfortunately (and I wish this were not the case) for the short term future people still need to get around to make the economy work.
BristolBiker.
Thanks for that post, as more of the detail has been revealed, I can see why someone may decide to divert RD funds in that direction.
However, temps in different parts of the world might mean limited application. Still, worth a look I guess, hence BMW's decision.
😀
Mol - you are still conveniently dodging the battery manufacturing issue... And you are better off fixing that RR than buying a whole new car.
Indefintiely?
I don't know about battery manufacturing. I would hazard a guess that hybrid car batteries are a tiny proportion of the world's battery manufacturing capacity.
There are other factors tho. How much energy does it cost to manufacture a gearbox? They are big, and heavy (much heavier than a Prius battery) and the Prius doesn't have one.
I keep having these brilliant ideas, then someone comes out with it years later and everyone's like 'ooh, isn't that clever!' Grr...
I think the key here is that an idea that remains in your head will always just be an idea.... the 'clever' bit is patenting/licensing or commercialising/selling the product.... and alot of that is about having the balls to back yourself and your ideas. ....None taken.... 😉
There are other factors tho. How much energy does it cost to manufacture a gearbox? They are big, and heavy (much heavier than a Prius battery) and the Prius doesn't have one.
In that case, is a tonne of steel worse for the environment than a tonne of oil/acid/poison? I don't quite get your equation of more weight = more impact on the environment. Maybe we should also build much lighter houses then?
If I worked for flippin Toyota I could just tell someone and it'd get looked at. I'm not prepared to quit my job and sell everything to get invovled with this market... There's already a bloke who's invented a 6 stroke engine that scavenges most of the waste heat and converts it into work - he's even built a 1cyl engine that demonstrates it perfectly, but he's having massive trouble getting any big company interested.
When I get a house that'll fit a workshop in the garden, and enough money to start buying up old cars and engines for modding purposes, then I might be able to get something going 🙂
My latest idea is a 2 stroke engine with an external compressor. Instead of compressing 2l of air every two revs that you don't need, you only compress what you need to burn the fuel you need to get the car moving...
Mat - people complain about the weight of the Prius battery - I was just saying that the weight is not a factor.
Manufacturing things like gearboxes must be fairly energy intensive though?
TJ - you're being a bit silly to be recommending tiny cars as a replacement for big cars. Of course it's more economical to drive a tiny car. But today, people want crash protection, comfort and a car big enough to carry a family around in.
Bobbins - of course you can do this with a small light economical car - and anyway light does not mean small - your prius could be 2/3 the weight with all the useless gadgets removed. Light cars can have good crash protection
And as you know - the prius does have a gearbox - not a conventional one but it does have complex and heavy set of gearing to allow it to work - plus two electric motors as well. No weight saving there
The prius is a big heavy car. It does nothing that a yaris or a wagon R doesn't do. however you need the status symbol of a big luxury car.
All you'd do with that kind of taxation would be strangle the economy severely.
Which is why I suggest doing it over a 20 yr span.
Mol - I don't complain about the weight of the battery - in fact the Prius is a pretty light car overall. But it's what's in it and how it's made that does concern me. It's rather hard to find any info about it strangely enough...
your prius could be 2/3 the weight with all the useless gadgets removed.
Right, so you are saying there's 450kg of useless gadgets in my Prius? I'd be keen to see the breakdown of that weight.
Go on, back up your wild claims 🙂
And as you know - the prius does have a gearbox - not a conventional one but it does have complex and heavy set of gearing to allow it to work - plus two electric motors as well. No weight saving there
Stats please? The HSD and the motors are tiny and I don't see why they'd be heavy. But I'd be happy to be proved wrong if you can find some figures.
A Prius is not a big heavy car at 1300kg or so. Yes, heavier than a 2CV but I'd not put my family in a mobile biscuit tin if it's all the same to you.
It does nothing that a yaris or a wagon R doesn't do
It carries four adults and their stuff in comfort.
As for status symbol - you are raving mad there mate. It's the car I feel embarassed about mentioning since I know basically everyone will slag me off and call me a total retard for ever buying. So how can it be a status symbol?
All I wanted was a decent sized economical car. Why am I so bad for this?!
PS when I bought it the Aygo available at the time had the exact same CO2 emissions. So give over with the Aygo thing please.
It's rather hard to find any info about it strangely enough...
It is, yes. Any search is polluted by the raving crap about hummers being greener which all stemmed for one paid-for biased report that was full of stupid assumptions and sheer crap.
They are just plain old NiMH batteries though, so information about those should be available...?
Molgrips - the point you keep ignoring is the lifetime environmental penalty. A prius is bad for this - how bad we don't know because toyota will not release any info on the batteries. Even without the batteries it is not good because of the weight. More weight = more resources.
of course a simpler smaller lighter car can carry a family and their stuff in comfort and safety.
Look at the schematics for the engine and transmission - the gearing and electric motors and batteries are a lot bigger than a conventional gearbox.
if the pious was serious about reduced lifetime pollution rather than zero emissions in towns it would be a lot lighter.
As for stuff that could be removed. i'd have to go thru the car but. Electric windows, all that fancy dash, most of the speakers from the stereo, sat nav, Air conditioning- that sort of thing. Then as it gets lighter you then need less power to drive it - hence smaller lighter engine.
But all those toys are essential to you are they not .
another point you ignore is that in order to reduce emissions significantly you have to accept compromises in other areas.
Well the older model Prius came out in 2003. It's good for 60mpg in normal driving, and is larger than a Golf. It's also petrol, which is cleaner and often cheaper. At the time I got mine, in 2006, nothing of its size had anything like its CO2 emissions and could not match consumption either; only tiny little Aygos etc could come close.
It has its place, but it depends what you call normal driving. Highway driving I can achieve 60mpg from my diesel estate car, in 2000 with emissions of 140 IIRC.
These days both sides have advanced a lot, but if you drive a prius with any gusto you're dropping the MPG way below a similar car.
Dont forget the battery lifespan, the energy and chems going into making it etc. There are different ways of making a green car. Look at things like the old landy 90s, while they're not the most efficient of cars many of them have lasted 30 years with only small repairs and changes, while in that space of time most people will have had 6 cars. I think part of the problem is we treat cars as disposable items, I know loads of cars that have been scrapped by the age of 10 - that's criminal, criminal that such a vast amount of enery went into making them and they're now not solid enough to survive a decade.
Toyota have done a lot of research into "whole life" carbon use - i.e. power used to make, run and repair the vehicles. From this they concluded that the hybrid system was best (easy to realise and pretty good at what it does), all electric cars make no sense for the majority of car users, petrol cars can be made just as good as hybrids currently but they need to press that technology on. All sensible points. Wouldn't make me buy a huybrid at the moment, but I'm glad it's being worked towards. Personally I've never been a new-car person, I'm happy with a 10 or even 20 year old car that others would have dumped by now, my 10 year old D estate can reach 65mpg on a run. My 20 year old sports car can do 0-60 as fast as I want it to, im not sure I see the reason for buying new all the time as some people do, but it keeps me in a supply of older cars 🙂 .
Molgrips - the point you keep ignoring is the lifetime environmental penalty. A prius is bad for this - how bad we don't know because toyota will not release any info on the batteries. ven without tha batteries it is not good because of the weight. More weight = more resources.
To be fair I went to a lecture given by Toyota on their hybrid technology, and the one thing they did was work through the numbers and show that, from an energy standpoint and based on their expected lifespan at least, the hybrid still stacks up similarly against similar non-hybrid models.
another point you ignore is that in order to reduce emissions significantly you have to accept compromises in other areas.
Correct, but the general population would never go down that route as a step change, so it would be pointless to introduce it, far better to accept a slower introduction of the technology and work towards that when it is accepted. Bear in mind no company wants to commit suicide by introducing a super-green car that no-one gives a damn about.
I agree with TJ on the weight issue.
Cars have been getting heavier for years MkI Golf was 900kg MKVI golf is about 1500kg. Manufacturers are beginning to reverse the trend but there is a long way to go.
Removing wieght become a virtuous circle. Lightweight car needs a lighter engine to make it run acceptable, less engine power so lighter transmission and so on.
The average cyclist has about 1/3hp at their disposal yet they can power their vehicle comfortably at 20mph becuuse combined wieght of rider/bike is <100kg.
Many of your standard safety features (like safety zones for occupants, ABS, airbags, SIPS etc) are heavy. By definition. Of course the best option would be to say everyone has to drive carefully and therefore not need any safety kit and not need a powerful engine. But reality sucks.
porter_jamie - Member
Are you saying that a petrol engine is most efficient at full throttle ?absolutely!
I thought we were talking about fuel efficiency, not maximum power.
We need land for food - stopping growing food just so you can cruise around in a V8 landy when people are starving is deeply immoral, don't you think?
Breeding more people when people are starving is even more immoral.
Should I stop driving my Land Rover just so other people can keep on having babies ?
coffeeking - so the best toyota can say is [i]by thier own figures[/i]that they wont release to anyone else that its
the hybrid still stacks up similarly against similar non-hybrid models.
Not very good is it. And I don't believe their figures anyway as they won't let independents look at them.
[i]I'd love a hybrid Yaris, if they made one. Unfortunately I can't afford three or four cars, one for every possible eventuality. If I could though, I would![/i]
And this is the real 'issue' for the average car owner, at different times you need different cars; especially if you've a family.
If I was buying cars with my wallet/brain, it would have to be a pair of s/h mid-sized MPV (example, Zafira) diesel - we've 3 teenage kids plus non-driving grandfolk.
Midland - a petrol engine is most efficient at full throttle - in that it turns more of the energy in the fuel into energy at the wheels at full throttle. at part throttle the frictional losses are almost the same as at full throttle and the combustion is less efficient - so for half the fuel you produce less than half the amount of power at the wheels.
this is why the experimental fuel challenge cars have tiny highly tuned engines run flat out and then they coast.
Molgrips - the point you keep ignoring is the lifetime environmental penalty. A prius is bad for this
I am not ignoring it - I take your point that it may be an issue, but I don't share your conviction that it must be bad because as you say, we don't know.
Look at the schematics for the engine and transmission - the gearing and electric motors and batteries are a lot bigger than a conventional gearbox.
I can do better than that, I can look under the bonnet. And let me tell you it's not larger than a conventional gearbox.
But all those toys are essential to you are they not .
Please, enough of the ****tish assumptions. You're just being insulting, and making me annoyed.
another point you ignore is that in order to reduce emissions significantly you have to accept compromises in other areas.
I don't ignore it, for f*cks sake you utterly arrogant f*cking insulting TW*T! Christ on a stick, you are being an absolute *RSE this morning you really are. Why does this have to degenerate to a bloody insult fest?! And yes you did bloody well start it by calling me vain and toy-obsessed.
It's about mitigation. My lifestyle is what it is, and I make certain choices to mitigate that. As do we all. That's it - I'm not pretending to be some kind of super green eco-warrior, I've said this time and time again. I've admitted I have a fairly high carbon footprint, but I'm working as best I feel able to currently to reduce it. And I freely admit I'm not doing very well. So leave off this imagined vendetta please, for the sake of us all.
I wanted a clean a car as I could get, and I wanted one that was big enough for adults. At the time of buying it was just about the cleanest on the road in CO2 terms. It was, really. As clean as an Aygo. Which despite what you say would not have been practical for the things I wanted to use it for.
Anyway, thanks to the rest of the adults on here for a reasonable discussion on automotive tech rather than "let's all slam the wannabe eco crusader Molgrips"
Highway driving I can achieve 60mpg from my diesel estate car, in 2000 with emissions of 140 IIRC.
60mpg is good, but 60mpg in a petrol car is only what, 110 CO2. That's a big advantage of petrol hybrid.
I thought we were talking about fuel efficiency, not maximum power.
One reason for inefficieny in petrol engines is pumping losses when you throttle the engine back. Hence, wide open throttle - no losses there. Also one reason why diesels are more efficient. However, when you boot a petrol engine it also enriches the fuel mixture, so actually driving at full throttle is not useful in practice.
However - it's worth noting that the best way to drive a Prius is NOT to accelerate slowly; rather to accelerate reasonably briskly so the throttle is not closed and the engine's efficient. Then when you reach your speed hit the cruise and keep it constant. Creeping minute acceleration really kills your MPG. This also works in my diesel Passat too 🙂
Hmmm, I'm not convinced.
You know those BHP and Torque graphs you see where the line rises sharply then tails away at the end, well I'm sure I've seen similar graphs with BHP plotted against gallons per hour, rather than RPM, and they were definitely biased towards the centre of the graph.
A car is far more economical at 2000rpm in 5th gear at 50mph than at 5000rpm in 1st at the same speed.
this is why the experimental fuel challenge cars have tiny highly tuned engines run flat out and then they coast
<waves> I've built and run one of those cars for the Shell challenge </waves>
Good fun, but a couple of observations a) I always felt the drive/glide philosophy was entirely within the rules, but not really in keeping with the overarching spirit challenge. As much development went into optimising your drive/glide cycles for a particular track/wind speed/etc etc as the car itself and b) if you had a midget on your team to drive, you were immediately onto a winner. 15 stone knackers need not apply 😉
[i]"One reason for inefficieny in petrol engines is pumping losses when you throttle the engine back. Hence, wide open throttle - no losses there. Also one reason why diesels are more efficient."[/i]
I still don't get this bit.
By "pumping losses" do you mean the induction stroke of the engine is trying to force air through a restricted inlet? In this case, the partially open throttle valve ?
The ECU will simply match the fuel delivery to the air mass entering the engine.
A car is far more economical at 2000rpm in 5th gear at 50mph than at 5000rpm in 1st at the same speed
True. However an engine is more EFFICIENT at say 3,500rpm than it is at 2,000 rpm. Efficiency and economy are not the the same thing. It's most efficient when it's converting fuel to do the most work. However if that happens at say 80% of max possible power, that's no good to you since you will be cruising at only 20% of max power. So the considerations there are different.
It's one reason why CVT transmissions are efficient, since when you are accelerating you can hit that sweet efficiency spot and keep it there - as mentioned above.
It could also explain why my old 1.1l Polo got 45mpg on the motorway despite driving at like 4krpm all day!
By "pumping losses" do you mean the induction stroke of the engine is trying to force air through a restricted inlet? In this case, the partially open throttle valve ?
Yes. I have heard it referred to as pumping losses but I am not sure why 🙂 It's due to the turbulence created by sucking air through that tiny hole.
Toucched a nerve did I mogrips? Its not me thats getting all offensive and shouty
Its you that are trying to justify the unjustifiable. if you really wanted to reduce your footprint you would have a smaller simpler lighter car. Some thing that weighs 2/3 of the amount of your prious will have a lower total lifetime environmental penalty unless the prius lasts 50 % longer. Which its batteries won't.
it really is that simple. either you don't believe what you are saying or you have been conned.
A prious looks good agaist another large heavy luxury car. It looks bad against a bit of basic family transport. But basic family transport won't do for your family will it.
As for stuff that could be removed. i'd have to go thru the car but. Electric windows, all that fancy dash, most of the speakers from the stereo, sat nav, Air conditioning- that sort of thing.
You say this as if it's only Prius cars that have these extras. Even my mum's 7 year old Nissan Micra (the most basic model) comes with electric windows etc. as standard. 17 years ago you had to go up a model to get a rear windscreen wiper on a micra 🙂
Toucched a nerve did I mogrips? Its not me thats getting all offensive and shouty
Yes, you bloody well did. You insulted me - not by being shouty, but worse than that.
You're not really listening. I'm not trying to be uber green. I am trying to mitigate my lifestyle.
A Prius is a car that's very economical for its size. That's all. I don't believe it's raping the environment in its production. You do - fine, but let's see some evidence..?
Prius batteries have been shown to last ages (they are designed to last the lifetime of the car, due to battery management strategies of which you may not be aware), and be no less unreliable than any other car component.
Priuses are not large luxury cars.
But basic family transport won't do for your family will it.
Utterly ungrounded and unnecessary insult. Please - leave it out. It's just not nice and is upsetting me 🙁
What should I have bought instead then, in 2006? Requirements were economy, and space for 4 adults.
Has anyone mentioned that a Prius will do about 2 miles on battery power only? Oh Diesel engine produce less CO2 than a Gasoline one. That will be the less fuel used bit.
