Forum menu
I have an used cartridge at home. It was machined from solid and the neck had split. From memory it uses small rifle primers. I dont suppose lapua makes them lol. The old boy on the next lane was shooting it and let me have the old brass
Slight diversion on the volley sight. I have a 1907 smelly which has a volley sight. I presume the purpose of these would be to have a few of them firing at once to pepper a particular area, in order to keep peoples heads down, since ‘aiming’ would be something of a waste of time?
Exactly, volleys were the poor man's machine gun, beating an area with fire. If done at long range the rounds tend to drop from above making it harder to take cover.
@timmys I had seen it, that's a great video! I've been lucky enough to visit the National Firearms Collection at Leeds a few times and in its previous incarnations as the Pattern Room at RSAF Enfield (where my MH was made) and RSAF Nottingham. It's probably one of the foremost collections in the world, sadly not open to the public, but I used to be able to blag an invite! I suspect he is using reduced power ammo in that video as it's an indoor range.
I have an used cartridge at home. It was machined from solid and the neck had split. From memory it uses small rifle primers. I dont suppose lapua makes them lol. The old boy on the next lane was shooting it and let me have the old brass
No, Lapua don't make them! Nor any of the big manufacturers. Finding usable brass is the biggest obstacle to keeping these old guns shooting. The very first cases were made of brass foil wrapped around a wooden mandrel. Drawn brass cases (similar to modern) came a few years later. Original drawn brass cases are rare and often brittle due to age and the use of corrosive primers. For years, what you describe was the only option, turned on a lathe from brass bar stock. This is not ideal as they don't expand to form a gas seal like drawn brass, have a reduced internal capacity and are prone to split on repeated firing. Things have improved slightly. New drawn brass is occasionally produced by specialist suppliers like Bertram in Australia, but is horrendously expensive (£7-£10 per case - if you can find it)! The option most people take now is reformed brass shotgun cases. 24 gauge brass shotgun cases can be had for around £1 a piece and with skill and the right forming dies can be made into 577-450 brass. With care, it can be reloaded 20 times or more (one fella managed 100 reloads as an experiment). I have bought a batch of 50 from the US which someone has already reformed. In future I'll have a go at doing it myself.
Slight diversion on the volley sight. I have a 1907 smelly which has a volley sight. I presume the purpose of these would be to have a few of them firing at once to pepper a particular area, in order to keep peoples heads down, since ‘aiming’ would be something of a waste of time?
That's pretty much how it worked, and I suspect with a full company of infantry it would have been surprisingly effective. The invention of the machinegun put paid to volley fire in British doctrine.
Are you sure that isn’t 1400 ft/lbs? I have it 1802 ft/lbs muzzle energy, I’d be surprised if it’s dropped that much at 400 yards.
Whoops, trying to run the figures off a phone app.......complete fail.
Here we go, from shooterscalculator.com
Muzzle energy 1802.
400 yds 885 ft lb drop 177 inches.
1800 yds 273ft lb. drop 8351 inches.
The round goes transonic at 116 yds.
There's more! 9-Hole Reviews also a good channel
I’ve been after a Martini Henry for absolutely yonks. Ever since watching Zulu as a kid truth be told!
Meant to say earlier, I'm pretty sure some of the actors used bolt action rifles in the films, and secondly looking at the size of the rounds, the fact that many of the Zulus in the films die clutching small wounds with a trickle of blood coming out is probably pretty much as far from the truth as you could get. If you actually hit with a dirty great big soft round like those HM ones, I'd imagine it'd make quite a mess!
Meant to say earlier, I’m pretty sure some of the actors used bolt action rifles in the films, and secondly looking at the size of the rounds, the fact that many of the Zulus in the films die clutching small wounds with a trickle of blood coming out is probably pretty much as far from the truth as you could get. If you actually hit with a dirty great big soft round like those HM ones, I’d imagine it’d make quite a mess!
I think you are right. Although I love the film, as with a lot of Holywood output, there are many inaccuracies in it. Historical, military and technical. One of the worst IMO is the maligning of Henry Hook VC as a bit of a scoundrel and trouble maker. In reality he was a good soldier. Apparently his descendants were (understandably) aggrieved at the portrayal. There's loads of other errors in it, but I take it for what it is, loosely accurate entertainment.
Beautiful piece of history you have there.
I always wanted an SMLE mk4 , my father was a marksman with one and always said of all the rifles he shot that was his favourite. He would tell me of putting holes in man-shaped targets from 6-800 yards repeatedly.
Despite the rights and wrongs of private gun ownership, most people who have an appreciation of functional mechanical engineering can appreciate the form and function of classic firearms.
I had access to a welded -up MG42 at one point and despite the carnage those things dealt out , by people on the wrong side of history, it would draw attention like no other item of war memorabilia and booty there.
This STWer approves. Saw a few of those stacked up in the CCF armoury BITD but never had the pleasure (quite possibly .22LR versions).
doesn’t have a website but I have an email address I can pm if you want?
Yeah that would be good, cheers!
I’m not a fan of guns per se,
I'm not a gun person either Reggie, but that's a nice piece of history.
Yeah that would be good, cheers!
Sent a message 👍
So, because there was a bit of interest in this, I thought I'd give an update as I've been able to collate all the bits needed to produce ammo, and managed to actually make some! I haven't fired it yet, but am off to the range on Sunday where I will find out if a 136 year old rifle manages to survive a diet of roll-your-own and stay in one piece!
My first step was to procure brass cartridge cases and reloading dies. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, finding brass is a challenge. The best option is converting 24 gauge brass shotgun cartridge cases. This involves a process of trimming, annealing and repeated passes through a forming die. In future I will have a go at this, but for an easier life initially I bought some ready converted cases. These are fairly expensive, but with care they can be reloaded many times over. These came from a small company in the US run by an expat Brit. There are UK suppliers, but bizarrely it is cheaper to buy from the US.
The die set includes a de-capping and full length resizing die, a case mouth flaring die and bullet seating/crimp die. Initially I won't be using the full length sizing die. This is designed to shrink the case back to 'factory specs' after firing. Because tolerances were a bit looser in the 1880's, Martini chambers vary quite a bit. After firing, the case will be perfectly fire-formed to fit in my rifle, so no need to size it. Sizing also work hardens the brass making it brittle over time, reducing its life. I may need to do a partial 'neck size' to create sufficient neck tension to secure the bullet, but this is not always necessary with black powder cartridges. The full length sizer will also double as a case forming die in future when I convert shotgun brass.
More to follow....
In future, I will have the additional steps of de-priming and cleaning the brass. This time though with virgin brass, the first step it to prime the cases. I have a dedicated priming tool for other calibres, but because the Martini ammo is so massive, the cases won't fit in it. I prime the cases on the reloading press one at a time instead. There is a small primer holder which is loaded by hand and seats the primer on the down stroke of the press handle. The converted shotgun cases use pistol primers not rifle primers.
Bullets. I am trying as far as possible to replicate the original Victorian service round. I have acquired a mould from a UK custom mould maker which casts a smooth sided, round nosed bullet which weighs approximately 495 grains (32g). The bullet diameter as cast is .460" but will be paper patched to around .470".
The Henry barrel on the Martini Henry is a quite unusual design. Although is a nominal .45 calibre at the muzzle, it tapers from the breech and 'swages' the bullet slightly as it travels along the bore. At the throat of the the rifling at the breech end, the diameter is approx .470" so bullets sized to that produce best accuracy.
I cast using an old saucepan on a camping stove - nothing fancy! I am initially casting in pure lead, but will later experiment with lead/tin alloys. This batch of lead came free off freecycle - roof flashing off-cuts.
Paper patching is 1880's technology which was on the evolutionary path to modern copper jacketed bullets. It allows higher velocities with reduced leading compared to non jacketed lead bullets. Patches are parallelogram shaped and cut from ordinary paper. They are sized to wrap tightly around the bullet exactly twice. They are applied wet, the excess at the base is folded into a cavity in the bullet base and left to dry overnight. Image of a finished bullet after patching but before loading into the cartridge case.
The next stage is charging the cases with powder. I am using a Polish made, medium grade (FFg) black powder optimised for longer rifle barrels. The original service load was 85 grains. I have dropped to 80 grains out of caution initially to see how that goes.
Although I have an automated hopper filled powder scale/dispenser I didn't use it this time. Black powder is far more sensitive to accidental ignition from static discharge than modern smokeless powders. Use in my auto dispenser is not recommended. I had the minimum amount of powder out at once and scooped it onto the scale. Slower but safer!
seriously cool!
👍 Thanks for posting,a whole world I knew very little about. 🙂
The original round has a complicated arrangement of internal components. I am trying to replicate this.
Firstly, a small wad of cotton wool is placed over the powder charge. This serves a number of purposes. It ensures the powder, which doesn't completely fill the empty space in the case, is kept in place over the primer flash hole for reliable ignition. Secondly, it avoids an air pocket which can cause unpredictable pressure issues with black powder filled cartridges. Thirdly, it prevents the subsequent components from falling into the body of the case.
Next a round waxed cardboard wad is placed over the cotton wool. I make these from milk cartons using a 12mm punch. Then a wax wad is 'cookie cut' with the mouth of the case. I make this from 50:50 beeswax and olive oil. My wife keeps bees, which is handy! This mix is melted into a pan and hardens when cooled. The purpose is to lubricate the bore and soften the black powder fouling so it it is more easily removed by the next bullet. Without it, the fouling would harden and fill the rifling grooves destroying accuracy after a few rounds. Next I add two more card wads. This prevents wax sticking to the base of the bullet, altering its weight and thus causing accuracy to be degraded.
Next stage is seating the bullet to the correct depth in the case using the bullet seating die in the reloading press.
Complete rounds!
As an additional step, I decided to have a go at making replica Victorian packaging, using a little plywood jig and images nicked off t'interweb, I am quite chuffed with the results.
j.
.
Needs "like" button!!
Have to admit I read that as 'Carrie on up the Khyber. Old gun content.'
I'm outraged that no-one is outraged by this thread yet...
...now where's Kryton when you need him! 🤣🤣🤣
I’m outraged that no-one is outraged by this thread yet…
You and me both! And pleasantly surprised.
Looking forward to seeing and hearing about the results from the range on Sunday.
i ended up watching a video on youtube a week or so back, where a "gunsmith" was showing the correct process for reboring a gun to a different calibre.
He had this old old smoothbore rifle, that looked to me like it should have been a treasured heirloom, and had it chucked up in this lathe to machine out the breach and barrel to take modern .45 rounds. He also modfied the block and pin to be able to fire centre fire as i think this old thing was rimfire.
Just struck me as weird to take this piece of history and muck it about so severely just to be able to play with it.
or maybe its weird to expect it to sit on a shelf and gather dust. who knows.
@Bazz, I will post a range report
@Olly, historical vandalism in my eyes. There is nearly always a way to get old guns shooting with custom made ammo without altering them. If there isn't, there are plenty of modern guns or replicas of older ones which use more commonly available ammo.
@olly, I hope he had it proofed again after his "conversion". And that he was chambering it for .45 black powder. Smokeless powder can generate much higher pressures. Definitely vandalism.
Back in the 70s lots of SMLEs were converted to .410 shotguns. I've got less of a problem with that, there were loads of knackered old SMLEs available and it was going from a high pressure military round to a lower pressure shotgun shell.
357, not .45, apparently, but whatever
Seriously cool thread!
👍 Thanks for posting,a whole world I knew very little about. 🙂
Definitely this - old weapons of any description fascinate me, but never seen the bullet making process in such detail.
Definitely this – old weapons of any description fascinate me, but never seen the bullet making process in such detail.
It's a bit of a geeky, nerdy hobby! Especially the home loading side of things. So I am a little surprised (but pleased) that a few people have found it interesting.
That round is huge! The only gun I have used was the Smith and Wesson 38 revolver. Years ago but as far as I remember the rounds were tiny compared to those.
A quick google suggests a 38 round lead weight a third or a quarter of those ones.
Having watched the video I'm not as annoyed. It's an obsolete gun with a worn out barrel that takes ammunition that hasn't been made for years. Probably going to scrap if they're didn't do this.
@Murray, sounds fair enough. Haven't had chance to watch it yet.
The title of this post just reminded me of the old Pink Floyd song - Up the khyber! It's a crazy piece of music.
@blokeuptheroad, so I'm right in thinking you'll use the cartridge again after you've used it? How many times can you do that before it becomes to bent out of shape?
@nickc yes. I'm hoping for at least 10 uses from each cartridge case, and maybe a quite a few more. I'm aware of someone who got 20 firings out of this kind of case. They don't really get bent out of shape. The brass can become brittle through work hardening caused by the expansion/contraction on firing and any resizing I do (which I will try to minimise). This can lead to splits.
This can be minimised by annealing (careful heat treating) the case neck every 3 or 4 firings which will soften it and restore the required ductility. You have to be very careful though as the brass needs to be soft at the neck and hard at the base to avoid catastrophic case separation!
Cases also stretch slightly after a few firings. They can be trimmed back to correct length but eventually this can cause case separation. This is much more likely in modern high velocity rifle calibres using energetic nitro powders than these old black powder rounds which work at much lower breech pressures.
I will clean then visually inspect them after every firing and discard any which are suspect. Black powder cartridges are very forgiving and the Martini is recognised as being a very strong action.
thanks for this post, it is really interesting and nice to see the attention to detail. love historic small arms... very well done
thanks for this post, it is really interesting and nice to see the attention to detail. love historic small arms… very well done
Thanks, it's been a fun project. Now I'm really looking forward to shooting it!
Looking forward to seeing and hearing about the results from the range on Sunday.
I did hesitate to post this. I hope people don't find it insensitive in light of recent news events. I am happy for the mods to delete the thread if that's the consensus.
I had a good day. My modest aims were: noise; smoke; holes in paper; rifle not blowing up. I achieved these!
It all feels like much more of an occasion than shooting more modern guns. Firstly, I was very aware that this was probably its first use in well over a hundred years. I had given it a very good check over and confirmed it to be mechanically sound, but still... there is always a slight worry. Especially dropping one of those huge rounds in the breech for the first time and recalling how much black powder I had stuffed into it!
As expected being propelled by black powder, there are huge clouds of smelly, sulphurous smoke and complaints from others on the firing point 'who's lit the barbecue'? 'Where have the targets gone' etc. There is also a small shower of confetti at the muzzle as the shredded paper jacket on the bullet falls away - very festive! Everyone wanted a go, I obliged a few but my precious supply of ammo meant some were disappointed.
I shot standing, sitting and prone. Felt recoil increased the closer to the ground I got, being most noticeable lying prone. It's not too bad though, heavier than my .303 Lee Enfield but somehow more agreeable because it's a firm shove rather than a sharp jab.
I shot at 25, 50 and 100m. Our range goes back to 200m but I was running low on ammo so will save 200m for another day. At 100m it shoots roughly to point of aim, a bit high at 50m. Accuracy was acceptable for a Victorian military rifle, but I am sure I can improve on it as I get used to it, refine my technique and tweak the ammunition 'recipe'.
l finished the day with a few shots from my black powder cap & ball revolver. After a two hour drive home, I then spent another 2 hours stripping and cleaning two very dirty black powder guns. Black powder residue is very corrosive and if you don't do this within a few hours of shooting, your guns will rust very badly.
.
.
.
.
Not a bad group. 🙂