Forum menu
I know it's not everyone's cup of tea and talk of gun ownership can get very contentious on here, but I thought I'd share this in case it's of interest and because I'm quite chuffed about it! If you really don't like guns could I politely ask that you bite your lip and start another thread about it, rather than pissing on my cornflakes on this one!
I've been after a Martini Henry for absolutely yonks. Ever since watching Zulu as a kid truth be told! Good ones are getting harder and harder to come by and prices have sky rocketed in recent years. I found this MK IVc which I got my mitts on today and it's a belter. Superb condition for it's age with (crucially) a clean, non pitted bore. Enfield made 136 years ago, and dripping with history. I'm still decoding some of the many proof and armoury marks on it but it seems it spent most of it's early life in India, before heading to Nepal where it sat until a few years ago.
I plan to shoot it eventually, but new ammo is not available to buy and home loading for it is a lot more complex than for modern calibres. Fun though - just another technically challenging aspect of ownership to go along with the engineering, history and smokey fun of shooting it.
Today, I have been mostly humming "Men of Harlech" and quoting Rudyard Kipling....
"When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch
don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch
she's human as you are, so treat her as sich
and she'll fight for the young British Soldier"
I like.
So does it load a single round in the top through that port (or what ever the right term is, I know f/a about guns!).
And will you be having tiffin, that's the big question 🙂
Somewhat disappointed that the reference to the Khyber didnt refer to the hand crafted copies made in that area. Although I guess it could be true unwittingly.
That only dawned on me after I posted 🙂
fascinating. it is amazing to think how that has in good condition for so many years.
my neighbour recently got hold of a Lee Enfield No 5 mk1. he’d been looking for one for a long time as it was the rifle used by his grandfather in indonesia. next time i see him i’ll ask if he’s managed to trace any of its history.
talking or which, is there a website you used for deciphering the armoury marks?
How much does it weigh? I don’t imagine it’s much fun to carry!
So does it load a single round in the top through that port (or what ever the right term is, I know f/a about guns!).
You know more than you think, that's pretty much how it works. The underlever is opened which lowers the breech block exposing the chamber and a round is placed in. Close the lever and fire. Opening it again ejects the empty case. Technically it is a falling block action
Somewhat disappointed that the reference to the Khyber didnt refer to the hand crafted copies made in that area. Although I guess it could be true unwittingly.
It was more a reference to a rubbish 'Carry On' film! There are Khyber pass hand made copies of the Martini around. They are of varying quality and some are not safe to fire. They are interesting in their own right, but I wanted a genuine British made rifle, with genuine proof marks that was going to be safe to shoot. There are also 'Gahendra' Nepalese rifles based on the Martini which are craftsmen made and very good quality.
my neighbour recently got hold of a Lee Enfield No 5 mk1.
The 'Jungle carbine' nice. I have a No4.
talking or which, is there a website you used for deciphering the armoury marks?
I got a lot of help on the British Militaria Forums. There are loads of others though.
How much does it weigh? I don’t imagine it’s much fun to carry!
Not sure, I'm guessing around 9 pounds? Not as heavy as the SLR I lugged around for miles as a young squaddie. And these days, I will only have to carry it from the boot of my car to the firing point on the range. I can just about manage that!
Nice
At cadets we obviously had the lee Enfield 303 but we had 2x of these.
As I was only a small lad I preferred them as they're lighter
Hunting tigers?
What calibre/chambering is it? There’s a well-known RFD near me that specialises in historical components (or did when I was in there a couple of decades ago).
First rifle I ever fired was a BSA Martini falling block in .22lr. The club also had a Vickers Falling Block , and a boatload of Lee Enfield no8 conversions.
At cadets we obviously had the lee Enfield 303 but we had 2x of these.
As I was only a small lad I preferred them as they’re lighter
I suspect the rifles you had in cadets were BSA Martini target rifles, probably model 15s. We had those in cadets too, though they share the same falling block action, the BSA fires the .22 rimfire, the Martini Henry fires a mahoosive 577-450 round. It was based on the early .577 Snider round but necked down to accept a .45" calibre bullet. It was the first widely used 'bottleneck' round which allows a smaller, higher velocity bullet but maintaining a large capacity case for a bigger propellant charge. It uses black powder though, not modern smokeless powder, so it smokes like Dot Cotton when you fire it. The rounds are physically massive, they dwarf a .303 or 7.62mm round.
What calibre/chambering is it? There’s a well-known RFD near me that specialises in historical components (or did when I was in there a couple of decades ago).
First rifle I ever fired was a BSA Martini falling block in .22lr. The club also had a Vickers Falling Block , and a boatload of Lee Enfield no8 conversions.
I was replying to Duncallum so missed this, think I've answered your calibre question though.
@nickc that's the badger! Thanks. Note the paper patched bullet. I will be casting my own and learning how to paper patch them, A bloke in a shed in Blackpool who makes custom bullet moulds is currently making one for me. The bullet weighs 480 grains (7000 grains in a pound). For comparison, a typical .22 bullet weighs 40gr.
That’s really nice.
Not entirely sure about the calibre, are you saying it's chambered for .45 but the case is .577?
Basically trying to ascertain whether it's an obsolete calibre or Section 1. But it looks like that's been amended again so it may make no difference.
Anyway, enjoy, that's a proper piece of history.
A bloke in a shed in Blackpool who makes custom bullet moulds is currently making one for me.
Does he do moulds for air pellets?
Wow, that’s quite a round! Satisfy my inner geek with some loading specs please? Bullet weight, powder weight and muzzle velocity?
That's going to kick a fair bit when you shoot it! (Or is the black powder a lot less powerful so it's not quite as bad as it looks?)
Forgotten Weapons has quite a few videos on them, for anyone unfamiliar with the YouTube channel it's an American guy geeking out about different guns. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=forgotten+weapons+martini
Not entirely sure about the calibre, are you saying it’s chambered for .45 but the case is .577?
Basically trying to ascertain whether it’s an obsolete calibre or Section 1. But it looks like that’s been amended again so it may make no difference.
Anyway, enjoy, that’s a proper piece of history.
Yep bang on. Parallel sided .577 (nominal) case, necked down to .45. This is classed as a section 58 obsolete calibre so can be owned as an 'antique or curio' without a licence if you just want to hang it on the wall. If you plan to shoot it, it becomes section 1 and has to be entered on your FAC. An additional hoop is you need an explosives licence for the black powder, which (bizarrely) you don't for smokeless powders.
Black powder is a lot more polite in terms of recoil, but I suspect it’ll still give a bit of a nudge!
Wow, that’s quite a round! Satisfy my inner geek with some loading specs please? Bullet weight, powder weight and muzzle velocity?
Service load. 480 grain round nosed paper patched bullet. 85 grains of medium (FFG) black powder. Approximately 1300 feet per second. Relatively slow by modern standards, but a much heavier bullet. Recoil is 'stout', but not unbearable - more of a sustained push than a sharp jab.
Thats a lovely piece of history and engineering, though I appreciate it's not everyone's cup of tea.
Off to play with a ballistics calc! 1300 is good going for that bullet size, so I’ll be interested to see what it’ll do down range. Don’t suppose you know the bc for the service bullet?
Does he do moulds for air pellets?
They certainly used to years ago. It was a father & son engineering set up, I think the Father who set up the company has passed on and the son taken over. He seems to specialise in moulds for muzzle loaders and early breech loaders like mine now. I don't know if they still do pellet moulds. LEM moulds ltd. A bit old school, doesn't have a website but I have an email address I can pm if you want?
Off to play with a ballistics calc! 1300 is good going for that bullet size, so I’ll be interested to see what it’ll do down range. Don’t suppose you know the bc for the service bullet?
Sorry I don't. Because it's not going to a be a precision target rifle or fired at very long range* the ballistic coefficient is a bit moot! All I know is it will make big ragged holes in a 100m target and hopefully group within a fist sized group at that range.
*claimed effective range for single aimed shots was 400 yards. The sights I think have settings up to 1200 or 1300 yards. Soldiers were taught how to do harassing volley fire at up to 1800 yards.
The 19th century was a fascinating time. The introduction of brass cartridges, smokeless powder, the first machine guns and the first automatic pistols.
Like many British bits of kit the Martini Henry arguably stayed in service too long but it was effective and available in large numbers.
I thought I’d share this in case it’s of interest and because I’m quite chuffed about it! If you really don’t like guns could I politely ask that you bite your lip and start another thread about it, rather than pissing on my cornflakes on this one!
I'm not a fan of guns per se, but yours is fascinating. Seeing a 136 year old piece of iron and wood in working condition like that is quite something, congrats on your find!
I’m not a fan of guns per se, but yours is fascinating. Seeing a 136 year old piece of iron and wood in working condition like that is quite something, congrats on your find!
Thanks. That's why I posted - hoping that the history and engineering aspects might be of some interest, even to people who aren't fans of shooting.
Like many British bits of kit the Martini Henry arguably stayed in service too long but it was effective and available in large numbers.
Only 47 years. Compare that to the various versions of the Lee Enfield which (if you include the L42 sniper rifle) were in service for nearly 90 years!
I am damn sure that, assuming you have you S1 FAC, there are historic shooting classes that you could play with.
I would be going elsewhere for more expert advice . Not that some comments are wrong. That bloke up the road has it for example but you'll get a more focused set of replies. Even Pigeon Watch may help.
The Vintage guns website may be fun to check our Diggory has some interesting articles.
the first machine guns
"Whatever happens, we have got, the maxim gun, and they have not".
Read a fascinating article recently about the depiction of the British Army abroad in engravings for newspapers and oil paintings (all swords, dying horses and heroic mustaches) verses the reality; turning the handle on a Maxim...More history I think we've yet to really come to terms with.
I would be going elsewhere for more expert advice .
I do have an FAC and have been shooting for 45 years. I am posting on here purely out of interest, not for expert advice. I am aware of the classic matches held at Bisley and elsewhere and am fully plugged in to the Martini Henry society, the Historical Breech loading Small Arms Society and a dozen other expert resources.
were in service for nearly 90 years!
I don't know if that says more about the original design of the gun, or the cheapness of the Army
Reminds me of my great uncle who was in the army in India just prior to WW1. There was a letter from him kicking around which was interesting. Mentioned trouble with the natives. The end of empire in sight.
Like 2 of his 3 brothers he didn't see 1919.
its history
Probably just popping off a few of the natives. Bally good show, what?
Excellent purchase, love it! Have always fancied a Brown Bess myself. Enjoy watching British Muzzle Loaders.
They don’t like it up ‘em! 😂
Have you got Neil Aspinshaws book yet?
Have you got Neil Aspinshaws book yet?
No, it's a bit steep at nearly £50 and I'm all spent out on old bundooks and reloading paraphernalia! But, it's my Birthday in a few weeks so Mrs Bloke might be getting a nudge in that direction. Neil is very knowledgeable and his book gets great reviews. He runs the Martini Henry Society website and facebook page and is a good source of accoutrements and spare parts.
Sorry I don’t. Because it’s not going to a be a precision target rifle or fired at very long range* the ballistic coefficient is a bit moot! All I know is it will make big ragged holes in a 100m target and hopefully group within a fist sized group at that range.
*claimed effective range for single aimed shots was 400 yards. The sights I think have settings up to 1200 or 1300 yards. Soldiers were taught how to do harassing volley fire at up to 1800 yards.
No, not a precision beast by any modern standards. Closest I can find is a 480grain 450 nitro dangerous game bullet by Hornady, Although that's copper jacketed, but we can sort of get a rough idea (BC is .285) .
Anyhoo, assuming a 100 yard zero, your 1300 fps gives a bullet drop at 400 yards of about 10 feet. The sight correction at 1200 yards is quite a ramp. Drop at 1200 yards is well over 100 feet! No wonder it was a case of "Wait 'til you see the whites of their eyes!"
Anyhoo, assuming a 100 yard zero, your 1300 fps gives a bullet drop at 400 yards of about 10 feet. The sight correction at 1200 yards is quite a ramp. Drop at 1200 yards is well over 100 feet! No wonder it was a case of “Wait ’til you see the whites of their eyes!”
This is the rear sight. From 100-400 yards it is used with the leaf down. With the leaf up the sliding v notch goes up to 1200 yards. There is then an additional V notch on the top which is I think for 1800 yards! There are diagrams in old Victorian musketry manuals showing how harassing fire at that range could engage enemy out of line of sight - behind a hill or whatever because of the steep looping trajectory. The 1200 yard sight setting has your cheek well off the butt stock and the muzzle pointing decidedly upwards!
Fantastic stuff. That sight is a brilliant bit of design. The cadet armoury in my day was filled with Lee Enfields with a similar ramp sight. I never actually used one, as the target versions we used in competitions were retrofitted with Parker Hale Diopters. Competitions in those days were at 200 yards then 500 yards. I seem to remember adding something like 22 clicks as we moved to the 500 firing point.
The calc shows the round delivered 140 ft lb energy at 400 yards. Certainly lethal at that range, but at 1800 yards? The calculator suggests they are still delivering 45 ft lb. You wouldn't want one of those dropping in!
The calc shows the round delivered 140 ft lb energy at 400 yards
Are you sure that isn't 1400 ft/lbs? I have it 1802 ft/lbs muzzle energy, I'd be surprised if it's dropped that much at 400 yards.
I don't think there's any chance you are not already aware of this channel on YouTube, but just in case you are not, this was a recent interesting one on a prototype for a magazine for a Martini Henry (also shows him firing it right at the beginning if anyone is interested in what the recoil looks like - though no idea if it is a standard loading or not);