Car crash - who’s at fault question…

hmmmm

A driving question, hazy info, sure to divide opinion...

OP posts once and vanishes...

Controversy rages, views become entrenched,  armed camps form...

I'd give it a 10/10

(I don't actually think it's a troll, but if I was going to troll this would be a perfect topic. I have a view too, coloured by the occasion when a driver flashed to let someone out, neither having seen me on my bike heading downhill at speed too late to brake and did an over the bonnet.)

Yes, you proceed safely and SLOWLY so that you can avoid whatever might be happening

Which the bus driver did - if he was going faster there would be much more significant damage.  You can't avoid everything.

This has happened many times to me

In fairness if you can find anyone who has ever driven that it hasn't happened to I'd be amazed.

However, the number of people who assume that they have is staggering. The number of times I slow down, look, see the situation, and then some absolute **** assumes we’re all just stopped to have a bit of a break, swings past both of us and then has to do an emergency stop to avoid whatever is happening is huge compared to how obviously stupid it is. Sometimes they give an angry beep and a hand signal, just before they shit themselves when they belatedly realise what’s going on.

In this case that seems to be the OP

Yes, you proceed safely and SLOWLY so that you can avoid whatever might be happening. This is precisely what the bus didn’t apparently do.

Only it's a bus, how long do you think the braking distance for a swerving bus at ?30mph? is vs a single car length? (the op only mentions one stopped car)

If the bus wasn't doing as above and going slowly do you think it would have been a very minor rta with no police attendance?

The op writes it all in a way which is intended to sound like its the bus driver's fault but the "maths" doesn't work.

Bus was going slowly when it hit, but how fast was it going before the driver hit the brakes?  A bus driver slowly manoevring around an obstruction ought to be watching the road.  The OP clearly was watching the road because he saw the other car slow, stop and flash him.

My money's on the bus driver not thinking it through and making a bad decision.

Only it’s a bus, how long do you think the braking distance for a swerving bus at ?30mph? is vs a single car length?

That's the point - the bus should not have been doing 30mph around a car stopped in the middle of the road!

This thread exposes a paradox of online communication.  If you started a thread suggesting that people were generally good drivers, you'd get laughed at - most people think most drivers are terrible. But given a chance to put the boot into a poster, other drivers are suddenly all perfectly rational and the chances are it's the poster on the thread that's the bad one.

The OP clearly was watching the road because he saw the other car slow, stop and flash him.

But not a bus...

My money is on the op only watching the one car, not the road then ragging out of his drive because he lives on a busy road and pulling out is a royal pita.

But not a bus…

We don't know what the visibility was like.  It could have been a blind bend which is another reason the bus should have taken extreme care.  Of course, this raises the question of how do you pull out of your driveway when its on a blind bend?  Arguably when another driver has stopped to let you out could be the safest time to do it.

I'm not saying the bus driver is the only one at fault here, but they're the professional trained driver with 50 people on board not wearing seatbelts and in control of a 30t vehicle or whatever it is which can do the most damage, so they should be taking the most care.

I’m not saying the bus driver is the only one at fault here, but they’re the professional trained driver with 50 people on board not wearing seatbelts and in control of a 30t vehicle or whatever it is which can do the most damage, so they should be taking the most care.

Absolutely, I think where we differ is I think they likely were and the OP wasn't.

It's all based on bias of course but based on my own experience I've:

Never been hit by a bus.

I've never seen one swerve round a car slowing in a controlled manner.

And I've never (knowingly obviously) not seen a bus

I have however more times than I can count been cut up by morons pulling out into tiny gaps in busy traffic because its easier to assume everyone else will brake than to wait fir a decent sized gap.

I've seen that go wrong a few times.

the bus that was behind them swerved to avoid rear ending the car that stopped for me

So the OP saw the bus traveling so fast that it had to swerve to avoid the car, yet the OP decided to carry on with his maneuvere? Something doesn't add up.

But given a chance to put the boot into a poster,

No one is doing this.  We are discussing who we think is at fault

As ever there are two different aspects - the legal responsibility which IMO is with the OP and the moral ( for want of a better word) which rests with all 3 participants

the reason the courteous car stopped is irrelevant - could be to politely let someone pull our, could have stalled, broken down, run out of fuel, the driver could have been taken ill,  could have stopped because theres an obstruction, hazard, child, landmine, oils slick, baby ducklings in the road  - if they just stopped in their lane, even if its a bad idea to do so a vehicle behind has no reason to know why they stopped and should just stop too until its clear why, and that its safe to move on.  So the bus behind should also have just stopped, not driven around the stopped vehicle, because they don't know why the car stopped - as it turned out there was a hazard ahead that they drove into.

If they decided to drive around the car rather  than at least initially stop they're int the wrong,- they made a bad decision - doesnt matter that other people might have been making bad decisions - theyre the one that made a bad decision that resulted in them losing control.  If they couldn't stop and therefore could only swerve then they were already out of control before the car ahead even stopped. Its true that buses have unbelted passengers so can't stop as abruptly as other vehicle.... that's why you drive them like a bus, under a licence achieved through additional training, at speeds and with space and time and anticipation that prevents having to make moves that would injure passengers

We shouldn't overlook the potential mitigating factor that there was a bomb on the bus.

OP's Bus Driver yesterday...

I’m surprised (or maybe not) at the number of people suggesting the op lie on their statement and omit the flashing lights to sound less at fault though, seriously?

TBH, if the OP did lie and not mention the car driver flashing their lights, then it isn't exactly going to look any better...

'I looked left and right. The right carriageway was clear but to the left there was a car stopped in the road, being followed by a bus so I proceeded to pull out of my drive'

So the OP saw the bus traveling so fast that it had to swerve to avoid the car, yet the OP decided to carry on with his maneuvere? Something doesn’t add up.

This.

Bus driver sees car stopping in front and a clear way to overtake, does so, only for the OP to pull out in front of him/her.

OP either hasn't seen the bus or has assumed it would stop behind the car

He was a young lad and very shook up.

Young is irrelevant, shook up because some tit pulled out in front of him at less than the stopping distance of a bus!

Bus was going slowly when it hit, but how fast was it going before the driver hit the brakes?  A bus driver slowly manoevring around an obstruction ought to be watching the road.

I agree, watching the road

I think scannning every drive way for cars pulling out isn't the priority, they are giving way to you

That’s the point – the bus should not have been doing 30mph around a car stopped in the middle of the road!

But YOU don't know those things - it's what you've decided has happened.

A bus driver slowly manoevring around an obstruction ought to be watching the road.

No he shouldn't..... he could be looking in his nearside wing mirror to check that he's giving enough room to clear the obstacle he's passing!

If you had driven a long vehicle you would know that.

So the bus behind should also have just stopped, not driven around the stopped vehicle, because they don’t know why the car stopped – as it turned out there was a hazard ahead that they drove into.

I'd say the hazard drove into the road, which it had no right to do, amd therefore the bus hit it

So the bus behind should also have just stopped, not driven around the stopped vehicle, because they don’t know why the car stopped – as it turned out there was a hazard ahead that they drove into.

I’d say the hazard drove into the road, which it had no right to do, amd therefore the bus hit it

I so agree with this - the bus driver saw the road ahead to be clear and made a judgement that it was safe to pass the stationary car, and was passing it when the OP sailed out of their drive because it was clearly safe to do so because the driver of the car had flashed their lights. We can argue that the driver of the bus should have seen an emerging hazard, but more so the OP should have seen an emerging hazard – and they were the one pulling out onto a road so they should have been 100% sure it was safe to do so.

I’ve never seen one swerve round a car slowing in a controlled manner.

I have seen plenty of terrible and too-fast driving from bus drivers though so it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

No he shouldn’t….. he could be looking in his nearside wing mirror to check that he’s giving enough room to clear the obstacle he’s passing!

What?  You're saying a bus doesn't need to look where it's going?  That's absurd. I've driven long vehicles, and when manoeuvring around something you need to check your mirrors AND what's in front of you (I can't believe this needs pointing out).  If you can't do both then you're not fit to drive, quite clearly.

when manoeuvring around something you need to check your mirrors AND what’s in front of you

Oh, so you do need to look in your mirrors then?  You didn't mention that.
I presume you have an eye on the side of your head that enables you to look in the mirror and at the road simultaneously because it's a wide vehicle, it's impossible to do without turning your head.

You know exactly what I'm saying.... the bus driver could easily have been looking in the mirror when the OP pulled out in front of him - which I think we can all agree is what he did otherwise the accident wouldn't have occurred.

I so agree with this – the bus driver saw the road ahead to be clear and made a judgement that it was safe to pass the stationary car, and was passing it when the OP sailed out of their drive because it was clearly safe to do so because the driver of the car had flashed their lights.

TBH this post is really 2 different questions... who is to blame as in whose actions contributed towards the crash (everyone, a little bit!) and who is actually "at fault" from an insurance POV (OP, I think unfortunately!)

I’ve had people pull out on me because someone stopped & flashed them, but I (heading towards them from the opposite direction) didn’t stop (obviously I <em class="bbcode-em">did then stop before impact!) It’s very much IME that (some) drivers interperet the “flash” signal as “pull out now without actually checking for yourself that it’s safe because I have a forcefield now as I’ve been flashed”

Yup - I had that just this week - I was heading towards a roundabout and the driver coming in the opposite direction (ie, having just exited the roundabout) slowed and flashed his lights to let out a driver who was about to reverse off his drive. Immediately I saw this as a damn stupid sequence of events (ie, daft to stop immediately after turning off a roundabout and dafter still to be reversing off a drive onto a busy road right next to a roundabout). I attempted to keep moving, expecting the idiot on their drive to stop what they were about to do and have the stopped driver realise he was sat in the middle of the road holding up traffic for no reason. But no - the idiot on his drive just sailed out. Obviously I stopped at this point and there was no accident but I was mildly frustrated by it - it was so unnecessary.

What caused, and who's at fault are two different things.

"You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road."

So on a junction you must give way to all traffic, which includes anyone overtaking. Obviously it's a driveway but I suspect that would make the need to give way even more important as main road traffic would be less aware of driveways than junctions - rarely road signage for driveways. So I think OP will be found partly if not fully responsible. All the bus driver needs to say is he was passing a stationary vehicle. 50/50 would be a good result for OP.

who’s at fault?

Yours. You pulled out in front of a bus.

the bus driver could easily have been looking in the mirror when the OP pulled out in front of him

Yeah but you look in both, rapidly, and move appropriately slowly.  You check that your trajectory will clear the obstacle (stopped car in this case) and keep checking the way in front is clear.  The point is you have to be going slowly enough for this to work.

Flasher (who scarpered 😂) also breaks Rule #1 by unnecessarily impeding the progress of a bus

You ,although the dimwit who flashed encouraged you to be another dozy so and so.

A) we all know flashing is much the same as the horn ( Cue Frankie Howerd sounds) It says "I'm here" . End.

B) Surely no one in their right mind gives away their right of way? It causes confusion as you have proved. Never do it. If we all stick to the rules we can't have "accidents".

C) The bus didn't stop. You should always be able to stop. No excuses, drive slower.

Seems I’ve caused quite a stir on here - thanks for your views.

to be clear I was not obstructing the highway. I was visibly trying to come out as my car was on the dropped curb.

No traffic from the right. So when the car to the left stopped (which tbh I was not expecting because nobody ever stops to let me out) I pulled out. Then a bus came into the side of me. Because it couldn’t stop.

the car didn’t exactly slam on the brakes I suspect the bus was not paying attention. No passengers btw.

if my fault, so be it. I’m insured.

What we all want to know is how did you not see the bus?

Because it was far away?

I did. It was behind the car. It should have stopped. But came round the side at the same time as I pulled out. Pretty straightforward really. Do you look at the full line of traffic before pulling out. Or the one that’s stopped…

I will be sure to let you all know once the insurers have worked it out 👍

Hard luck Chris. It's the kind of thing I could well envisage doing myself.

Chris id have watched the vehicle behind in the scenario you describe, had plenty of scenarios where I've seen people overtake a slow or stationary vehicle allowing someone to pull out.

It should have stopped

that says it all - you assumed the vehicle should have stopped then pulled out of your drive.

you assume wrong..

I’d say the bus driver - if he had to swerve into the opposite lane to avoid rear ending the flasher. He wasn’t paying due attention.

Again, NEVER take instruction from someone flashing.  Just ignore them until they move on.  Similar scenario close to where I live where a car flashed out a driver from a junction so driver pulled out right in front of bus that was coming the other way but potentially assumed was safe to pull out as driver had flashed them.  That driver sadly won't be posting on any forums asking whose fault it was...

Agree. As my instructor said (OK, was about indicators but..... what can you tell from their flashing headlights? Answer - that the bulbs aren't blown)

However to those that seem to say they never let anyone out - really? I mean, I meet plenty of drivers like you out there so i guess that you mean it but a bit of give and take makes the roads a lot nicer. If no-one let me out of my side road in the morning I could literally be there for 10 minutes.

I still can't get something to add up in the OP's description.

The bus didn't stop and came round the flasher and hit the OP amidships, but with no significant force. Buses do a lot of damage, they are very heavy. OP says no significant injury but both doors damaged.

Buses also are not highly manoeuverable unless at very low speed, they can't suddenly pop out from behind a car so must have started to overtake a couple of car lengths further back at least?

This explanation of pulled out, didn't realise he was going to overtake and yet was still only 2-3m into the road - I can't quite get my head around.

In which time OP has managed to get about 2-3m into the road (assuming he doesn't drive a stretch limo, that's about how far you need to go to be exposing your two side doors)

So either it was going quite quickly but should have been obviously overtaking, or slowly and yet the OP still pulled out?

I’d say the bus driver – if he had to swerve into the opposite lane to avoid rear ending the flasher.

Or was he simply overtaking, using a bit of the road which was clear (and on which he had priority) before the OP pulled across him?

I’d say the bus driver – if he had to swerve into the opposite lane to avoid rear ending the flasher.

Or was he simply overtaking, using a bit of the road which was clear (and on which he had priority) before the OP pulled across him

Overtaking a car despite there being a car waiting to pull out of a driveway on the other side of the road? Not the best decision. Overtaking on a road with exits along the other side, never mind an actual car sitting there in an exit waiting to pull out, is not likely to end well.

I'm going with, it was an unfortunate series of snap human decisions that we all make from time to time in the pressure of driving on busy roads, and in this instance, there was a perfect storm of slight errors of judgment.

It happens. See what the insurance say. Glad you're OK op 👍

Would you really call passing a stationary vehicle over taking?

If it is I have to over take stationary cars every day whilst surrounded by drive ways. One is on a difficult corner. It needs my full attention to see if anyone is coming the other way on the road. But apparently I should actually be starting at all the drives in case some one pulls out.

OK

i can see the counter argument. The faster the bus is  travelling the more it shifts the blame to the bus. If we are talking about a line of traffic to the left then I would be surprised by a vehicle passing one that has stopped to let me out

But i still think the dominant law is traffic in the road has right off way

Would you really call passing a stationary vehicle over taking?

If it is I have to over take stationary cars every day whilst surrounded by drive ways. One is on a difficult corner. It needs my full attention to see if anyone is coming the other way on the road. But apparently I should actually be starting at all the drives in case some one pulls out.

I don't think what you call it matters, but whenever you are going to go around a vehicle, moving or otherwise, you need to be aware of any potential hazards on the opposite side, no? Could be a car waiting to exit, could be a person waiting to cross, could be a pheasant. You have to be aware of anything, and that's not always the case for humans making quick decisions under pressure.

I wouldn't 'stare' at all the drives no of course not, but they would need to be part of your general awareness when going over into the oncoming lane surely? It's often a subconscious thing that's just a part of driving.

That's the thing. There is an awful lot of things going on in your typical driving scenario. Arguably so much that it tests our ability as humans to process it all and make the correct decisions all of the time in a snap. I suppose that's why some people think self-driving cars are a good thing.

What would a self-driving bus have done? I imagine it might not have swung out around the slowing/stopped car into the oncoming lane, which sounds like it was punctuated with exits. It probably would have waited behind. Don't know.

Humans are always making errors of judgement. We're really good at it.

If OP was already into the opposite lane when the bus crossed into it, the bus driver is the one changing lanes unsafely. If OP entered the lane when the bus was already beginning (or committed to) the overtake, he's the one doing it unsafely. As the bus managed to knacker both his doors, he's pretty well out when it reaches him.

It's poor hazard awareness on both sides, really. And if the 'letting out' car has pulled to a halt out of nowhere instead of proceeding, they deserve some blame as well (although they won't get any).

Again, NEVER take instruction from someone flashing. Just ignore them until they move on. Similar scenario close to where I live where a car flashed out a driver from a junction so driver pulled out right in front of bus that was coming the other way but potentially assumed was safe to pull out as driver had flashed them.

Agree you can't blindly trust a car that flashes it lights but the situation you describe is nothing like the situation the OP describes. The situation you describe is the driver assuming the flashing car meant the road was entirely clear in both directions and safe for them to pull out without doing their own checks. The OP has stated there was no traffic coming from the right and from the left the car at the front of traffic had stopped to let them out, the accident was caused by the bus behind that car not leaving sufficient room to slow down safely or not paying enough attention, they therefore had to take avoiding action and in doing so caused the collision.

What if that car had slowed down for some wildlife in the carriageway and the bus rear ended them? Or swerved into the opposite carriageway into an oncoming car? Whilst I have sympathy for the bus driver as most of us will at times drive too close to cars in front as we get conditioned that it won't suddenly slow down it's still your fault if that mistaken belief leads to you causing an accident.