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it hasn’t been confirmed that the bus driver had to swerve to avoid a collision – that is just an assumption. Another view is that they assumed the driver was pulling in and simply passed them
From the OP
the bus that was behind them swerved to avoid rear ending the car that stopped for me
but either way, I think the fault lies mainly with the bus - whether going too fast / not paying attention or failing to observe and predict what was happening and therefore just overtaking into another car, they are the ones that caused the collision.
The OP has enabled it by pulling out and being in a place where the bus driver's actions ended up putting him.
The flasher has enabled it further by encouraging him to do it.
Insurance however might see it completely different. You say the bus driver was a young lad and shook up but you can't really let compassion enter into this. If you want to fight your corner and not get shafted I'd be onto the bus company with your version (going too fast and unable to stop so pulled out to avoid rear ending) and ask for their confirmation of that via dashcam and speed data, etc. They might not want to give it but you have to try.
You are at fault - 100%
Never take action purely based on another driver flashing at you. They could even flash at you and keep on driving and it would still be your fault for pulling out in front of them.
First, it sounds like you drove out correctly, i.e forwards, or are you one of those drivers that saves a few seconds getting home and then has to reverse (partially blind) across the pavement and into traffic?
Second, if the bus has made an evasive manoeuvre and swerved to avoid the car in front (or to avoid a heavy braking penalty for passenger (dis)comfort then I'd say its their fault. If it was a poorly judged overtake of the car that randomly stopped, I'd say thats going to be mostly your fault.
Crucially though, I wouldn't state you were flashed out, it sounds like the car letting you out either stopped or substantially slowed down, so he was stopped/giving way to you. Sounds a lot better , flashed out often results in an impulsive rushed manoeuvre where you fail to check for other hazards (like buses that are likely to struggle to stop in time)
If the bus driver was just overtaking (rather than swerving to avoid a crash as the OP stated) then they should have been more careful before driving on the wrong side of the road. However a lot depends on the speed and environment.
Hang on. If you come across a stopped car in the road, simply swinging around it at speed and carrying on is really stupid. You really should ask yourself why that car has stopped! People tend not to stop in the road for no reason. There will be a reason you need to work out what that is and if it poses a risk to you. Letting someone out is pretty high on the list of reasons people stop in the road.
Same for a car overtaking and hitting someone pulling out of a side road. You aren't supposed to overtake through junctions for this very reason.
Needs clarification from OP but the way I read it is he was pulling into single-carriageway road and going right. Car approaching from the left stopped to let him out (how suddenly is unclear) and a bus behind that car couldn't stop in time (either driver not paying sufficient attention or the car in front stopped very suddenly) so bus takes avoiding action, swerves around the car and hits the OP's car left side (the bus being in the wrong carriageway at this point).
If the above is correct then it sounds mostly the bus driver's fault to me, entirely so if the car that flashed didn't stop suddenly (even if he did the bus driver should have been leaving sufficient room)
You aren’t supposed to overtake through junctions for this very reason.
That's good to know. On my road commute, I have to turn right at a place where there is often traffic behind me. I signal, look back, make sure the driver has seen me and is not intending to overtake, look back again, and again, wave a thumbs up to the driver, then turn right. Only to once have a car behind that driver not realise why things have slowed down in an apparently clear road and overtake, almost killing me.
In my mind, that impatient driver is on the wrong; what else can I do?
This situation reminds me of that
Exactly, which is why I think the bus driver is at fault.
Consider equation without bus:
driver from the left stops to let you out (ignore the flashing bit, assume intent is clear anyway). You look right, nothing coming, pull out in front of the car that let you out, job is good.
Now add bus:
same scenario except bus is doing what it should, slows behind the car, you look right etc., job is good.
So what changes to create the accident?
Bus is going too fast / not paying attention / fails to interpret situation, overtakes and hits OP. Up until that point all is good and the bus driver's actions cause the collision.
The fact they're on the wrong side of the road and hit a car (assume you stopped and took photos etc. of where the bus was) makes it pretty obvious to me. The fact the other driver buggered off muddies it a bit as their car won't be in any pics to clarify, and I *suppose* bus driver could claim there was no other car and his braking / evasive action (unsuccessful) explains why he isn't in his lane.... hence why dashcam footage before they lose it is pretty important.
Still doesn't mean the Ins Co's may approach it differently.
I also assume no police involvement? The more I think on it, the more it sounds like careless driving by the bus, and I had half a mind that police usually attended PSV incidents anyway because of the issues with possible passenger injury, crowd control (53 people now held up and getting cross, etc.)
The main / key factor here is the OP pulling out into a road that was not clear. Without the OP pulling out there would have been no collision. The car stopping and flashing and the bus pulling out to pass the stopped car ( for whatever reason) are contributing factors which is why I think the OP might get knock for knock but you cannot get away from the fact the OP pulled out into the path of a bus
Many years ago I was in a similar collision. suburban road, parked car on my side, the driver of the car I was in crossed the white line to pass the parked car, another car pulled out from my right straight into our path. Ruled 100% the other cars fault
Or was it clear until the bus driver proceeded into the opposing carriageway without care?
then they should have been more careful before driving on the wrong side of the road.
How? If there's nothing coming the other way and it's not at a junction then it's OK.
If you come across a stopped car in the road, simply swinging around it at speed and carrying on is really stupid
Who said anything about "at speed"? It's a bus, they don't do speed. Plus, a fast moving vehicle the size of a bus is going to do far more damage than described by the OP.
You really should ask yourself why that car has stopped!
Vehicles stop in the road for all sorts of reasons ... Especially in more built up areas.
I think this is just a case of the OP assuming it was fine to pull out and didn't give it enough thought.
The bus driver quite reasonably pulled out to go past a stationary vehicle and the OP pulled out of his driveway (not junction) at the same time.
You aren’t supposed to overtake through junctions for this very reason.
HWC should not vs must not, of course. The road markings should change too - to long dashed lines at least if not no overtaking.
There's a similar incident waiting to happen near me, on a bit of a rat run in among the houses. The road is quite narrow and has approved / marked parking on the left hand side (viewed as if driving) so you need to 'overtake' into the oncoming lane when clear to do so.
There's a newish development on the RHS along here - old house knocked down and turned into 4 or 5 flats with a residents parking in the front.
The residents are obviously attuned to it but I nearly had a head on with a delivery driver type a while back, also had a Deliveroo scooter come straight at me and then mount the pavement to not have to stop, because they come out of the parking area, quick look to the right because they're turning left, and then carry on out without looking left and at the legitimately overtaking traffic.
Who would you blame there? I'd be overtaking parked cars into 'oncoming' traffic if they got substantially out of the parking area and onto the road.....but you can't wait all day just in case there's someone going to come out of the parking area.
The bus driver quite reasonably pulled out to go past a stationary vehicle
Stationary implies it had been stopped for a while. Bussie should have seen it coming to a halt, not indicating to show pulling in to park, lots of indications that a supposedly professional driver could have used as cue.
If he'd been paying attention, and driving under full control.
Its the old "Switz cheese" theory of incidents. Its not one mistake that causes the incident - its a series of them. Each mistake on its own would not cause an accident but the 3 together do.. so its a question of apportioning blame between the 3 folk that each ( on the surface) made a mistake
but either way, I think the fault lies mainly with the bus.
Not in the eyes of the law. The rules around overtaking at junctions have been noted in the thread already - It will be frowned upon, but not strictly against the law, and in many cases unavoidable when it comes to stationary vehicles.
The OP however, has a legal obligation to give way to traffic when entering the road. It's pretty straight forward.
There could be extenuating circumstances (the bus was doing 140mph, etc...), but in most scenarios there's no argument.
The main / key factor here is the OP pulling out into a road that was not clear.
It was clear from the right (let's deduce that because a/ the OP could pull out and b/ the bus driver thought overtaking into it was OK [not sure they 'thought' at all in reality])
It wasn't clear because of a line of moving traffic coming from the left.
Then it became clear because the driver at the head of the line of the moving traffic slowed to allow the OP out.
It's only the actions of the bus driver that caused the crash; the actions of the other driver and OP enabled it but didn't cause it.
Another thought - if the other driver stopped too suddenly for the bus (whether following too close / too fast or just not paying attention doesn't matter) then if bus had stayed in lane and rear ended other car - whose fault? If they'd overtaken into oncoming traffic instead of OP - whose fault?
I *suppose* bus driver could claim there was no other car and his braking / evasive action
Did the OP know that the bus was having to take evasive action? (If he did and still pulled out......!!!)
Stationary implies it had been stopped for a while.
It doesn't imply anything, it just means stopped.
The flashing car may not have even stopped.... Just slowed right down as if to stop or turn left into another drive (without indicating - it happens a lot).
People overtake cars that are turning left all the time.<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I'm not saying it's right, but it's not wrong.</span>
The OP however, has a legal obligation to give way to traffic when entering the road. It’s pretty straight forward.........in most scenarios there’s no argument.
Scenarios like this one, for instance? Where what he did was perfectly OK right up until the point where the bus driver did what he did?
People overtake cars that are turning left all the time. I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s not wrong.
Is it wrong if you then crash into a car as a result of overtaking the car turning left? Or a car slowing / stopping, or even stationary? Maybe because you weren't driving properly and had to overtake to avoid rear ending the car turning left / slowing / stopping / stationary?
So in your opinion, when driving on urban roads, if I have to change sides of the road to pass a stationary car, then I should give way to cars trying to enter the road from their drives?
So in other words once you are on the wrong side of the road you loose right of way to cars entering the road.
As said above, stationary doesn't imply anything, 'swerving to avoid rear ending' does and is only the view of a vested interest.
Is it wrong if you then crash into a car as a result of overtaking the car turning left? Or a car slowing / stopping, or even stationary?
Not if that car has pulled out onto the road in front of the overtaking car.
Think of it this way - if the OP had looked left again and seen the bus would he have pulled out?
Maybe because you weren’t driving properly and had to overtake to avoid rear ending the car turning left / slowing / stopping / stationary?
Who said anything about "avoiding rear-ending"? If it was the OP .... did he see that and still decide it was OK to pull out? Doubtful, but if he did then he's definitely to blame!
the bus driver thought overtaking into it was OK [not sure they ‘thought’ at all in reality]
In all reality I think the OP's sequence of events is likely very biased. A bus swerving isn't exactly a minor thing, [old] people fall out of seats, into each other, they get injured etc.
In all honesty I don't think the OP's explanation adds up, to me, it reads more like they're already trying to explain away what they did and looking for a plausible no fault statement to give the insurance. Of course I wasn't there though and I don't know.
I'm surprised (or maybe not) at the number of people suggesting the op lie on their statement and omit the flashing lights to sound less at fault though, seriously?
(especially given the series of events described by the op make it sound very much like the flashing lights could have been [in line with how the highway code suggests the flashing of headlights should be understood] "I'm here, look at me driving towards you, don't pull out," followed by the op pulling out anyway, the car emergency stopping and the bus taking evasive action.)
Scenarios like this one, for instance? Where what he did was perfectly OK right up until the point where the bus driver did what he did?
There is nothing 'perfectly OK' about failing to give way. If the bus was so close, and travelling at a speed it would collide with the OP in the very short time it takes to pull out into the road, it should have been obvious. Unless there's more to the story, it's a simple failure to look properly.
Bus driver
Strange how OP's always go silent when the replies don't suit. Come on OP - give us some more info! 🙂
the bus that was behind them swerved to avoid rear ending the car that stopped for me, and came into the side of me.
How do you know this OP... did you watching him do this and still decide it was cool to pull out?
What's the speed limit there?
The main / key factor here is the OP pulling out into a road that was not clear.
It had a stopped car in it and a gap, so you could argue that it was clear. Now, we're not sure if the car was actually stopped of course.
Vehicles stop in the road for all sorts of reasons … Especially in more built up areas.
Exactly. For reasons. So don't assume the driver is just stopping for a picnic or admiring the view, and it's safe to proceed. You should try and figure out why that car has stopped and start by assuming there's a good reason for it - for example, there is a manoeuvre in progress.
The bus driver quite reasonably pulled out to go past a stationary vehicle
I dispute that this is reasonable. If you see a stopped car in the middle of the carriageway, why do you think they've stopped?
So in your opinion, when driving on urban roads, if I have to change sides of the road to pass a stationary car, then I should give way to cars trying to enter the road from their drives?
So in other words once you are on the wrong side of the road you loose right of way to cars entering the road.
No. It's clear that when entering the road you give way. That's what the HWC says.
But, if a car has slowed to allow a car to pull out, and you then overtake into that car then you think that's OK?
Just because the outcoming driver doesn't have RoW doesn't excuse the overtaking driver. Even if technically correct it's a dick move.
And (at least by my interpretation) it wasn't a stationary car in the sense of a parked car.....it was a line of traffic where the lead vehicle slowed down to allow someone out.
[and yes, I agree OP is probably biased but doesn't make him a liar, which is what some seem to be accusing of]
The no overtaking at a junction rule is irrelevant here. It is a driveway. If we couldn't pass parked/stopped cars anywhere near a drive the roads would be permanently blocked.
I'm just having trouble visualising how I could exit a drive far enough to see a car in the near lane flashing me but not see a huge bus behind it pulling out to go past it.
If you see a stopped car in the middle of the carriageway
How do you know it was in the middle, how wide was the road?
This is the thing - the OP has given his account of the event - which is probably slightly biased - and we have made up stuff around that. Some of it might be true, some probably isn't. There's a lot of conjecture going on.
At the end of the day the insurance co is going to look at it and see that the bus driver was doing nothing wrong and that the accident was very likely caused by poor observation/incorrect anticipation.
(If the OP could see that the bus was going too quickly/taking avoiding action why did he pull out and why not get the police involved afterwards?)
It'll go knock for knock. Bus driver should have been driving at a sufficiently safe distance/speed to stop without needing to swerve. You shouldn't have pulled out in to traffic, irrespective of the wally who stopped and encouraged you to do so.
I dispute that this is reasonable. If you see a stopped car in the middle of the carriageway, why do you think they’ve stopped?
Facebook, dropping someone off, picking them up, finding the pack of cigs they dropped on the floor, parking etc.
Also to reiterate, the op either could see the bus and pulled out anyway or couldn't see the bus before they made the manoeuvre, in which case the car was very likely out of view of the bus too, potentially on a blind bend etc, which might be why the bus *cough* swerved to avoid it.
What do you do when you come across a stationery vehicle with no obvious cause for it to be stopped (traffic lights, pedestrian etc) ? Do you wait until they move off, maybe in a minute, maybe tomorrow or next year or do you pass it?
in terms of insurance isnt is the person doing the hitting thats at fault? (i`m no expert by the way!)
either way the bus has cctv all over it so probably has a decent view of what happened - flashing lights, serving busses, grannies rolling in isles, numberplate of the flasher leaving hte scene of the incident, nosey neighbour etc - the lot. No point in lying unless you want to make yourself look like a numpty
Where's the OP gone? More details required now, there's a lot of supposition going on.
Was it a built up area?
Single lane road?
How far away from you was the car that left the gap?
What estimated speed was everybody traveling at before the incident?
OK, to be reasonable. There's a lot of conjecture now in this thread, so joining in the whatiffery and bringing a bit of logic to it. Because i don't think it's maybe as clear as OP described.
In particular - car slows to allow him out and he goes. Bus driver for whatever reason - for these purposes it doesn't matter - overtakes the slowing / stationary car.
OP's car - "both my doors are knackered so it’s not going to be cheap" - indicates a/ he's been hit amidships; b/ it's pretty slow speed - buses carry a lot of kinetic energy and if he'd been hit at speed I think it's beyond both doors being knackered, it's major damage / write-off / KSI territory.
So - either bus has moved round the car at slow speed and OP has pulled out in front. Or, bus was haring along, has jammed on brakes and taken avoiding action and just failed to stop. In which case why didn't OP say this, and once you see that unfolding, why doesn't the OP hit the accelerator and try to get out of the way. To still be T-boned in that situation as opposed to a rear quarter clip, or a near miss and a new accessorizing stripe on your upholstery - a bus slowing from speed, avoiding the other car and dropping finally to 'damage on both doors' sort of speed would take quite a distance and therefore time. Did OP just sit and wait for it to happen?
What's really happened?
If it's genuinely as the OP says then I still think the bus has some liability if not all. But - it doesn't smell quite right really.
[edit - also just rechecking OP - neither of us were 'seriously hurt'. Any injury and police should have been called, and they could then sort out there and then]
What estimated speed was everybody traveling at before the incident?
Was it fast enough to take off on a treadmill?
What do you do when you come across a stationery vehicle with no obvious cause for it to be stopped (traffic lights, pedestrian etc) ? Do you wait until they move off, maybe in a minute, maybe tomorrow or next year or do you pass it?
Id come to a stop or slow down sufficiently to see if i can see the reason for stopping and make an assessment on risk before pulling into (possibly) oncoming traffic, small child, family of ducks, car pulling out of a drive maybe.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the bus driver did all of this and pulled around the stopped car but whilst he was passing he was staring into the stationary car's drivers window and performing the international 'poor driving' hand signal to indicate his displeasure at having to pull out, inadvertently taking his eyes off the road.
Facebook, dropping someone off, picking them up, finding the pack of cigs they dropped on the floor, parking etc.
Keep going - I'm sure you can think of plenty of reasons that might also might make it not safe to pass. I certainly can. In fact, we're discussing one right now.
Id come to a stop or slow down sufficiently to see if i can see the reason for stopping and make an assessment on risk before pulling into (possibly) oncoming traffic, small child, family of ducks, car pulling out of a drive maybe.
And if you did that in a bus, most likely, you'd only be going quick enough to cause some relatively superficial damage to the bus and a car you t bone a few moments later
From the OP, the car stopped
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<div class="bbp-reply-author d-flex align-items-center flex-wrap"><span class="bbp-author-name">ibnchris</span>
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Was trying to pull out of my house today and the car to my left slowed down, stopped and flashed to let me out.
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I’m sure you can think of plenty of reasons that might also might make it not safe to pass.
But that's sort of the point. A stopped car can mean a number of things, that it's not safe to pass is on a long long list, it might make half of even more of the list but you look, assess and progress (as safely as possible), you don't just sit forever waiting for the car to move because potentially it might be unsafe despite the lack of evidence.
I'm not saying I'd have made the same or a different decision, what I am saying is its a decision.
Do you wait until they move off, maybe in a minute, maybe tomorrow or next year or do you pass it?
This has happened many times to me so it's not hypothetical. I stop, first, then I look around - if I cannot see then I edge out and check what's going on. There's always a reason - like I say, drivers are usually on the road to get somewhere, they tend not to just slow down and stop for the hell of it in the middle of the road.
However, the number of people who assume that they have is staggering. The number of times I slow down, look, see the situation, and then some absolute ****er assumes we're all just stopped to have a bit of a break, swings past both of us and then has to do an emergency stop to avoid whatever is happening is huge compared to how obviously stupid it is. Sometimes they give an angry beep and a hand signal, just before they shit themselves when they belatedly realise what's going on.
So he saw the car had stopped but not the big bus behind it that was still moving?
[Saw the car flash
Looked right - saw there was nothing coming
Pulled out ...... into the path of the bus as, rather than actually check, an assumption was made that nothing was coming]
they tend not to just slow down and stop for the hell of it in the middle of the road.
Have you never seen an owner/driver delivery person in an urban area?
assess and progress (as safely as possible)
Yes, you proceed safely and SLOWLY so that you can avoid whatever might be happening. This is precisely what the bus didn't apparently do.