[Closed] Can this be right?

nope zokes - that about sums it up! i think i'm off to Bike Magic to open an acount the self righteous index is lower there.

As a socio-economic model the 'fine' of points / cash and the impact on the bloke's career says that it is socially unacceptable to drive in this manner. But here is the difference between 'fines' and 'charges' are we 'fining' this guy for 'anti-social' behaviour or is the government simply levying a punitive charge?

FWIW I believe that the current 'fines' system is simply a methodology of raising funds - people speed, miss signs etc therefore the state has a ready to go source of funding - has 'fines' reduced speeding and road accidents over the past 10 years? The answer is no - therefore we are dealing with a charge system and not a 'fines' one. Let's be perfectly clear about this.

As I've said before this charge is not just on this individual but impacts heavily on his entire live, on his wife, children etc

Morally reprehensible in my opinion.

shoefiti - Member
nope zokes - that about sums it up! i think i'm off to Bike Magic to open an acount the self righteous index is lower there.

Think I might join you, feel a bit like the Hunch back of Notre Dame at the moment......

You know that bit when he swings up into the tower shouting "Sanctimony.. Sanctimony" 🙄

Utter arse being spoken on here about these issues IMHO. No one is saying that people should not be punished for their transgressions, nor that there should be no rules, just that there should be some sort of proportionality in sentencing. I haven't got to the D & D bit yet, but when I do you'll see what I mean.....

Oh **** it lets just go for it..

Whats the standard sort of sentence for being caught over the limit, but without breach of any other traffic law??

Whats the standard sort of sentence for being caught over the limit, but without breach of any other traffic law??

Mandatory 12 month ban at the very least, I think.

Yep thats the one,

So what do you get if you're over the limit and had a minor accident, or broken a traffic law ???

When I got caught by a speed camera whilst day dreaming, I went out and bought a Road Angel. This notifies you when you approach a fixed speed camera or a mobile camera site. It has added benefit of having an easy to read digital speedo at eye level rather than having to look down at speedo.

Oh, a whole multitude of things, especially if you were speeding 😉

Nope, its pretty much the same sentence (minor variations, but in essence the same). So hows that proportionate? You've made a tactical error, and have transgressed over the arbitary and very vague line, but in so doing have not caused any harm of done anything ostensibly dangerous, (over and abvoe the intital offence obviously), and then you get nailed in exactly the same way as someone who has crashed their car, or breached traffic laws over and above what you have done. Thats not right is it?

G, as my friends and family will tell you, I am a big believer in "if you can't do the crime etc", particularly when it comes to motoring offences, since many people seem to think they are not "real" laws. How many people describe themselves as "law-abiding citizens" then do 80mph down the motorway? I know I do.

However, you do have my support on this one and I think some sort of appeal would certailny be a good idea. We don't need any more people out of work.

Next time any of you are at Inners give me a shout and I'll give you an assessment of your driving - just so you can find out how good or how crap you are. I'll do it for the price of a bacon roll.

How many people describe themselves as "law-abiding citizens" then do 80mph down the motorway? I know I do.

Thank god - someone that doesn't talk BS!

I also got caught on a camera once - doing 67 in a 60 at 9pm on a stretch of A road - just gone from 2 lanes to 1 - no cars for miles - central reservation - no school or hospital for miles - my attention just lapsed, as it was at the bottom of a hill my speed had crept up - it's not like i accidently slipped a bottle of whisky into my coat pocket or accidently hit my wife or accidently sold some crack to some school kids, my attention lapsed and i got hit with a fine - it sucks - but should this be punished with loss of employment, hardship for my family, cost to the tax payers? not in my mind.

Next time any of you are at Inners give me a shout and I'll give you an assessment of your driving - just so you can find out how good or how crap you are. I'll do it for the price of a bacon roll.

But that means driving to Inners and I don't think I could stand the worry over getting points on my licence let alone finding the place - I don't get out very often 😉

(BTW - are you trained to do assessments or do you simply want a bunch of STWers to drive a very long way (at huge personal risk) to purchase a bacon roll? What if you don't believe in meat?)

Smee - Member

Next time any of you are at Inners give me a shout and I'll give you an assessment of your driving - just so you can find out how good or how crap you are. I'll do it for the price of a bacon roll.

Ah, I wondered when you'd turn up....

(For the uninitiated, Smee rather sanctimoniously informed us that we should be extra specially careful when driving after cycling in case we got a bit excited and tried to huck our cars over oncoming traffic)

Tankslapper - Yes qualified to do assessments up to a fairly advanced standard.

Zokes - away and boil your head.

Zokes - away and boil your head.

Oh, so my driving must be up to standard then?

Come visit me and I'll give you a reality check on your driving and you'll see how crap your driving and attitude really is. Tell you what, I'll waive my fee too.

So I can get a free test but everyone else has to pay you in bacon butties?

Ah yes, found it now...

[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/beardy-cyclist ]

Smee - member

*** beardy **** cyclist

Yes, you seem to be just the sort of person to be teaching other people 'advanced' driving skills....

{EDIT} Do'h - double post...

Is this still going on?

Its really simple. Gs mate got fairly banned.

Some other cases [i]on the surface[/i] seem to have been dealt with leniently but this is what we have a judicial system for. it is perfectly possible to kill when driving without committing a serious offence.

G wants to spuriously link various other things to his mates case to try to prove his mate got unfairly banned. Its like comparing apples to sheep.

ITS REALLY SIMPLE - IF YOU CAN'T DO THE TIME DON'T DO THE CRIME.

Now stop bleating!

Zokes - Correct. I am exactly the type of person to teach that stuff. That's why I do it.

Do you drive TJ? i don't suppose you have gone over the speed limit - Ever? have you ay? be honest!

G wants to spuriously link various other things to his mates case to try to prove his mate got unfairly banned. Its like comparing apples to sheep.

Totally wrong TJ, I don't know how many times I have to say it, what I am saying is that the sentencing does seem to be disproportinate in any number of cases. Those of special interest to me in no particular order

a) My mate
b) myself
c) Fellow cyclists offended against
d) Motorists generally
e) Chav type serial offenders

I mean for example, near to where I live the local chavvery set up on a nightly basis near to the towns sorting office, which is effectively a very large roundabout in a one way system. All night long they scream up and down, do doughnuts and generally piss people off. Thats every night of the week. This is no more than 500 yards from the towns central Police Station. You can park up and watch and you will see every driving offence in the book being committed continuously. Action taken? Nil: Having been pressed any number of times the Police response is this is so we know where they are, its not in a residential area and we can keep an eye on them. So hows my mates serial offending different from theirs then?

G wants to spuriously link various other things to his mates case to try to prove his mate got unfairly banned. Its like comparing apples to sheep.

Now stop bleating!

Is that a deliberate pun? 😉

it is perfectly possible to kill when driving without committing a serious offence

The bloke from Rhyl was driving too fast for the conditions with three bald tyres. That's three counts of driving with a defective vehicle, and one of dangerous / careless driving, and that's before he's hit anything. That's 12-15 points in one fell swoop. If G's mate deserved his 12 points for 4 speeding offences, then before the Rhyl guy even hit the unfortunate cyclists he should have received at least 12 points in one go. Or is speeding always more dangerous than driving with bald tyres, or driving to the speed limit in icy conditions?

I know G, don't know his mate (if he even existed, or whether the whole thread was a spectacularly hypothetical troll), but what the thread was about wasn't the fact that his mate had been done, more did the penalty fit the crime. This was discussed in the light of a well-known case. Just because most people never seemed to grasp that basic premise doesn't mean he, TS, I or anyone else is bleating; more, we are debating whether the law is just. FWIW, the law is very geared to catching 'easy' targets, whilst the more dangerous antics (such as overtaking on double whites - TJ) go missed because there are less officers out there to catch such people. People get caught for speeding and punished because they [u]may[/u] cause an accident. People get punished for D&D because they [u]may[/u] cause an accident. By and large, people only seem to get punished for dangerous / careless driving [u]after[/u] causing the accident. To me at least, it seems pretty clear where the problem lies...

shoefiti - Member
Do you drive TJ? i don't suppose you have gone over the speed limit - Ever? have you ay? be honest!

Actually he has fessed up to speeding and dangerous driving not to mention deciding when the law should apply to him and when not further up this thread to be fair.

shoefit - as said many times on this thread and others - Until the last couple of years I rode fastish motorbikes and was a serious speeder - jail time speeding at times - certainly instant ban.

However I don't speed in 30s and 40s and if / when caught I DON'T BLEAT ABOUT IT. That is the key. Break the law accept the punishment.

edit :The law always applies to me. If I chose to break it and get caught I would and hve accepted the punishment. there is a time and a place for speeding 🙂

TJ, if it were that simple would we really need to have so many cases go to court. You sped, we caught you, here's your punishment. Why do we need a judge for that? Because life isn't black and white.

In G's example I'd rather see a hefty fine and a small ban - at his mate's expense - than another person on the dole claiming benefits at MY expense. He doesn't sound like a dangerous driver. He speeds - as do many of us - and he got caught once too often. Bad luck. Fine him yes, ban him yes, but not at the expense of his livelihood. Unless there are other factors not mentioned by G I think his mate has cause for appeal against the punishment (NOT the conviction).

I've not read all the posts on this thread but even for STW most are a *touch* unsympathetic to say the least.

Smee - Member

Zokes - Correct. I am exactly the type of person to teach that stuff. That's why I do it.

So someone who blasts their horn at a cyclist who has the audacity to be on the same road as them, then is still angry enough to rant on here about it later on is an ideal person to teach people how to be careful drivers? Your logic is as strange as you are deluded. Let me know where you live, that way I don't have to risk an accident caused by you or one of your unfortunate students.

Zokes - your observation skills are clearly useless.

zokes - I am not saying in the Ryhl case the punishment was correct. It however is possible to have an accident where people die without committing and offence.

G - the point you simply do not seem able to see is that because in one case the driver seems to have got away lightly this has no bearing on your mates case. None. Zero. Zip.

You mate got the punishment for the crime. Maybe the Rhyl driver didn't. so what. Your mate still got the correct punishment for the crime as laid down in the law. The Rhyl case has no bearing on it whatsoever.

Oh Bugger - I got sucked back into to it again.

Smee - Member

Zokes - your observation skills are clearly useless.

Observation - so your a driving instructor? What's wrong with a proper job? 😛

- the point you simply do not seem able to see is that because in one case the driver seems to have got away lightly this has no bearing on your mates case. None. Zero. Zip.

Yes it does, punishment especially for linked areas of crime. Clearly sentences must be proprotionate, in fact the whole of UK law is based on precedents, and it is the norm to consider prior case law before deciding how to sentence. I actually have been amazed throughout this thread how someone of your obvious intellect cannot see that it is absolutely crucial that there is a sense of proportion in punishment. In my mates case he got very close to the maximum that the type of offence will normally get. In the Rhyl case the guy got less than the normal minimum, which would be 3 points per tyre and £60 each (he got 6 points and £180 fine in total), the Magistrates could have awarded much more had they chosen to. The Police could have charged him with other offences had they chosen to. That is not proportionate. Thats my point

You mate got the punishment for the crime. Maybe the Rhyl driver didn't. so what. Your mate still got the correct punishment for the crime as laid down in the law. The Rhyl case has no bearing on it whatsoever.

I never said the Rhyl case had any direct bearing on my mates case. What I said is that the sentencing is not proportionate. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, are you saying Rhyl was reasonable? Because if so my mates circumstances clearly aren't given a much heavier sentencing regime being applied. Conversely if you think Rhyl was excessively lenient, then clearly its not therefore proportionate to what happened to my mate. Either way you cannot be correct in what you are saying. Troll or otherwise I honestly believe that.

G

Having given this consideration surely there is some precedent based on social class and past behaviours here? Take a habitual road and civil offender (Acorn group 5 for example) surely these individuals should have greater punishment than say (acorn group 1,2 or 3)comparable individuals with unblemished records.

In stead of a factory style punishment where all are treated equal, repeat offenders (Chavs) should be given tougher sentences? Only seems right.

discuss
TS

Smee - Member

Zokes - your observation skills are clearly useless.

Clearly. Obviously you didn't post [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/beardy-cyclist ]this rant[/url] about how you tried your best to run a cyclist off the road. Did you have a pupil with you at the time? Even better was when you turned up [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/driving-home-from-a-ride ]a couple of weeks later being holier-than-thou[/url] about how people should be calm when driving.

You're blinder than a blind man wearing a blindfold in a blacked out room.

G - what you fail to understand is that what happens in one case has zero bearing on another case [i]of a different crime. [/i] Precedent and proportionality is irrelevant across different crimes.

Your mate got the correct sentence. Maybe the Rhyl driver did not. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You need to try to understand a bit more about the law. I simply disagree with your analysis as do most others on this thread.

your understanding of how the law works is wrong, your analysis of the case is wrong and you appear unable to listen to further argument.

Last post from me

Started reading the first couple of pages and gave up.
Yes the guy did speed and deserved some sort of punishment but in these days where speed cameras are so common is 4 minor speeding offences in 3 years worthy of a ban?
12 points on your license got you a ban in the old days when speed cameras on the roadside didn't exist.

I can't believe all those who actually do drive preaching about speeding on here have never broken the speed limit!

I was in court once when a drunk driver who demolished a roundabout and admitted he was about to go on the motorway got away with just a fine and no ban because he would lose his job!

Life is not fair, one person will get let off the next will get punished.

Thats Britain for ya!

You need to try to understand a bit more about the law.

I think the main argument is that the law is unjust. I concede that arguing on here isn't going to change anything, but can't see how that differs from 99% of the other pointless diatribe vented on this forum

TJ : I understand the law well enough having studied it at both a level and degree level, thanks very much. It is common practice for simialr areas of law to be considered so much so that of occasion settlements in different legal systems, are taken as precedent. It is not uncommon for example for American case law to be taken into account in the UK.

So once more for the record, I am not saying that my mate was innocent and shouldn't have been punished. Quite the opposite in fact, what I am saying however, is that for it to be seen as fair, just and equitable it has to be proportionate across the board. Clearly his sentence when ALL circunstances are taken into account is on the harsh side, clearly when very few of either the facts or circumstances were taken into account the Rhyl drivers setnence wasn't harsh even then. My question is therefore how can that be right? And that I think is where I came in.

IT has nothing to do whatsoever with him getting done, me or him bleating, just simply a strong sense of injustice, which I fully accept would be equally resolved by mate putting up with what he got, and all the others getting much harsher sentences, as it would his sentence being reduced to make it proportionate.

Justice has to be seen to be fair, and I put it to you that the things I have raised above clearly are not only not seen to be, but simply are not just.

Woot?

thread closed

please? its boring now.

But have we reached a consensus?

Do we need to?

I think so - agreed we've done this to death but is it finally agreed that

(a) The punishment does not fit the crime
(b) That fines etc be handed out by social class and 'previous' convictions?
(c) Smee and Zokes should never meet - I suspect some wierd space time continium thing might occur

TS

Zokes - you just don't get it do you?

I was pissed off at the cyclist because he was being a cock.

I was pissed off at folk driving back from trail centres and driving like cocks.

Moral of the story is dont be a cock on the roads.

[img] [/img]