Nearly all won by the struggles of the British Labour and trades union movements.
Nah, Le front Populaire.
BB, You forgot the short contract directive, which affected me and many like me directly.
Anyway my work here is done, I've reached one person with reasoned principled debate.
I only wanted to add a different point of view to the thread which after all was originally about the connection between Brexit and general election result. I'm certain that my point of view does have a connection. I knew it was never going to be popular, despised by the Tories, remainers and centrist left alike. Nevermind water off a ducks back to me. I got much more abuse on other forms of social media last June.
[quote=whattiler ]Anyway my work here is done, I've reached one person with reasoned principled debate.
I only wanted to add a different point of view to the thread which after all was originally about the connection between Brexit and general election result. I'm certain that my point of view does have a connection. I knew it was never going to be popular, despised by the Tories, remainers and centrist left alike. Nevermind water off a ducks back to me. I got much more abuse on other forms of social media last June.
And you registered on this forum just to make these posts?
Anyway my work here is done...
...having made one inaccurate post about the EU and workers' rights.
[quote=whattiler ]Anyway my work here is done, I've reached one person with reasoned principled debate.
Don't go - I suspect I'm not the only one appreciating having an intelligent debate on this for a change (apologies if any of my replies haven't come across that way).
[quote=whattiler ]I don't think anything is a good idea under the Tories.
The trouble is that whilst I can understand the point that this was your chance - it was actually your chance to be screwed. My politics are very much pragmatic, I'm not terribly impressed with theories of what could happen in an ideal world when the reality is different, and the reality is still Brexit under a Tory government. Which in the context of workers' rights is still pretty hard to spin as preferable to staying in the EU. I suppose the argument may be that we can fix things under a different government, but that requires a huge dollop of wishful thinking. Just not a big fan of unrealistic idealism which the hardcore left seems fond of.
You're right in that I am inclined no to agree with trickle down economics, and yes, this does form my main argument against the EU. It's a race to the bottom for workers whilst the profits are supposed to trickle down, it hasn't worked.
I wasn't expecting you to - you don't particularly have to be a lefty to realise it's a load of bollocks - it was an example of something similar to how the economic advantages of the EU might be perceived, and interesting to see you agree with the link. Ultimately though if the economy does badly, then it's hard to get the tax receipts to pay for things to benefit people. The economy will do badly after Brexit in comparison to how it would if we were still in the EU - the plan to maintain our economic performance also quite clearly doesn't involve improving the lot of the workers.
As has been pointed out, the EU may not care much for workers rights, but the governments we get in the UK care far less. This is the control we're actually taking back.
Nearly all won by the struggles of the British Labour and trades union movements.
I've seen this silly argument before. You have to defend your victory, and since Thatcher British Labour and trade unions have been losing those rights big time.
Its the EU that have done a better job defending our rights against predominantly Tory Governments than Labour and the Unions have in the last 40 years.
With this in mind I do find it disconcerting that some people who believe in these rights leap into bed with the very people trying to take them away over the belief that the EU is only an free market capitalist organisation, when it is so much more.
Not the kind of principles I would be proud of.
Anyway my work here is done......having made one inaccurate post about the EU and workers' rights.
I want your job!
..having made one inaccurate post about the EU and workers' rights
Or getting out while they can before getting drawn in so far you can never get out...
Corbyn (like Tony Benn before him) has been a lifelong hater of Europe. It stops you nationalising things and its anti-democratic. Corbyn wanted A50 triggered on 24 June 2016. Labour stood on a firm platform of ending freedom of movement, had to otherwise they would have lost many votes / seats.
<sigh> cite
Oh aracer,"cite" is is an expression of hope,experience tells us we will be disappointed,yet again.
EDIT: specifically which thing do you not believe / need a citation for ? Everything I posted is basic "been in the news tons" sort of stuff.
@aracer really I do wonder sometimes if you follow the news at all. Corbyn deleted all his anti-EU blog posts shortly after becoming leader (you can google that) . Decades worth. As Kaye Hoey said at every EU Westminster vote Corbyn went through the same lobby as she did, ie the anti. His half (or less) hearted campaign for Remain said it all, the best he could manage was giving the EU 6 (or 7?) out of 10 🙂 He also said a number of times during the election campaign that he / Labour supported the end of freedom of movement, that automatically means no Single Market. He had to do that to shore up the Labour vote in the North
In which case a cite will be dead easy for you...
"Labour stood on a firm platform of ending freedom of movement"
Yes,cite please jamba.
Page 28 of the [b]Manifesto[/b]
Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union (its a PDF so cut/paste a bit of a hassle, I can mark up the page with iAnnotate)
EDIT screen print
[img] 
[/img]
To be honest its just a massive facepalm you guys don't know this. Nothing agressive you understand I simply cannot believe it.
EU has been ultra firm that the 4 pillars of the EU are inseperable so no freedom of movement means no Single Market membership,
I don't think that counts jamba,stating that free movement will end as a result of leaving the EU,is not a firm platform,it is simply a description of the outcome of leaving. Do you have any other evidence for your statement ?
F me. Its a manifesto commitment and Corbyn confirmed it during speeches / Q&A during the election, his spokeman confirmed a few days ago that no freedom of movement means no Single Market Membership.
Really I am just flabbergasted you do not believe this. It is fundamental to the platform Labour stood on.
[quote=jambalaya ]Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union
To be honest its just a massive facepalm you guys don't know this. Nothing agressive you understand I simply cannot believe it.
I know exactly what it says in the manifesto - I was just curious whether you did, and that's what you were basing your assertion on. It's a statement of fact, as you might notice I already pointed out on pages 5 & 7 of this thread. If you have additional references which make it more than that you'll presumably be able to cite them.
Because it also says in the manifesto:
strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first.
Given the obvious contradiction we're both aware of, it's kind of tricky to rely on a statement of fact in one part of the manifesto as a statement of the aims, when another part of the manifesto explicitly suggests an aim which is impossible to achieve in conjunction with that. I certainly can't find anything saying that Labour will put ending FoM or controlling immigration first...
I'm still curious about Thornberry's statement that there are many ways to leave the EU and we must find one acceptable to the 48. - woman's hour
I think you need to read that in too Jamba.
I suspect freedom of movement may live on if Labour get their way. When Brexit causes our economy to crash we'll need FoM to be able to get jobs other places.
Jamba has a point though (hi Jambs) in that the Labour position on EU membership is [i]nuanced[/i].
Which tbh for most of us it is. Pros and cons are apparent to [i]most[/i] of us when we think about it. Obviously! Its the sanest view of the whole thing. Its no bed of roses, but on the whole, the benefits outweigh the negatives.
But I think though that for me....and many others....its fundamentally about trust. There are those I would trust to negotiate something thats in-line with my slightly left-leaning interests and inclinations...and those I certainly wouldn't.
And thats where Corbyn comes in for me.
I just trust him more.
I don't trust the ConKips as they'll try and f*ck me over.
I have said for a long time that they actively [i]want[/i] a bad deal/no deal as it will further their cause and give them a plausible excuse for further demolition of the welfare state and other institutions that I'm kinda fond of.
And the ECJ for good measure as it interferes with their authoritarian tendencies.
[quote=codybrennan ]Jamba has a point though (hi Jambs) in that the Labour position on EU membership is nuanced.
I agree its position is nuanced (I used the word "contradictory" earlier 😉 ), and if that was the point jamba was making then I'd agree with him...
jamba's assertion about people voting for hard Brexit is a load of bolleaux though - I happened to vote Lib Dem anyway, but if I lived half a mile down the road I'd have voted Labour in the hope of getting a government made up of Labour, SNP and Lib Dems which sure as heck wouldn't be doing hard Brexit.
jambalaya - MemberF me. Its a manifesto commitment and Corbyn confirmed it during speeches / Q&A during the election, his spokeman confirmed a few days ago that no freedom of movement means no Single Market Membership.
Really I am just flabbergasted you do not believe this. It is fundamental to the platform Labour stood on.
Could be right.
It'll be interesting to see what happens. Lots of people seem to want to have their cake and eat it. I wonder if we'll all get fudge instead, served with a generous helping of jam, but not until tomorrow.
Will there be clotted cream with the jam?
Or its just setting up the real point that the UK must accept some stuff to get something. Freedom of movement is in the negotiations especially if it means we can keep the single market. It could be seen as a stalling point or a way to lie to the brexiters to get their vote. I approve.
[quote=mikewsmith ]It could be seen as a stalling point or a way to lie to the brexiters to get their vote. I approve.
Well they all voted on the basis of a lie last year, so I can't see why they should get upset if they've done it again.
I don't trust Corbyn as far as I could throw him as regards negotiating exit and trade deals.
But, the alternative is May… who has never shown any understanding about the needs of business or people.
Easy, but awful, choice.
Both parties had "cake and eat it" platitudes in their manifestos as regards Brexit.
No vote for either party gave any direction as regards what people want out of the upcoming negotiations.
mostly the delightful lot that voted UKIP have toddled off back to their respective natural habitats and voted however they would have done normally, UKIP collapse as a result, and the 48 have voted tactically. the only option to bring brexit to a crash stop was lib dem, but they don't hold sufficient sway to prevent a division of the vote most places, and clearly the main objective was to prevent the tories getting that landslide they expected, so the alternative was labour.
mission accomplished.
labour may not be offering much succor to the remain camp, but one thing at least is true, they don't have a party half full of swivel-eyed nut-job millionaires looking to bring the economy to it's knees just so they and their mates can get richer at the expense of the rest of us.
Del - Memberlabour may not be offering much succor to the remain camp...
here's the succor:
i'd rather labour were doing the negotiating, than the likes of Davis, Gove, Johnsson, Fallon, etc. etc. The very idea that ****s like Rees-Mogg are even in the same room while EU-exit brainstorming sessions are being held brings me out in a cold sweat.
I don't trust Corbyn as far as I could throw him as regards negotiating exit and trade deals.
Why?
What about Starmer?
Basic politics what labour have done with the manifesto. They've focussed on what they believe in (free market and customs union) and left a caveat on FoM by stating that will end with Brexit [b]because that's the current uk/eu position[/b]. Allows them to reposition accordingly after negotiations.
That maybe the case, but the EU has clearly stated no freedom of movement == no free trade agreement.Labour stood on a firm platform of ending freedom of movement, had to otherwise they would have lost many votes / seats.
So on that statement are the Labour party saying they will withdraw completely from the EU. Of course they are not. They are basically hoodwinking the masses into believing that they 'will' obtain that if they get into power. The realists amongst us know that they don't have a chance of negotiating such a deal. No UK political party can achieve such a deal.
Agreed flanagaj. But Brexit showed us that lying is an acceptable electoral practice - it may even have been you or Jamba that said that.
And on any basis the Tories look worse.
The Labour manifesto actually allows quite a lot of wriggle room, including some options that the Brexit fanatics miss because the refuse to see them.
flanagaj
The realists amongst us know that they don't have a chance of negotiating such a deal. No UK political party can achieve such a deal.
Serious question for you. Not trolling, so please don't think I am. Looking for a glimpse of what makes you tick.
Would you [i]like[/i] to see a deal? Genuine question. Not looking for a fatalistic, we-can't-get-a-deal-so-lets-leave answer.
Would you like to see some kind of deal?
Asking lefties to negotiate with EU bureaucratic system? 😯
Aren't they the same group of people ... 😆
