I wonder if "control of our own laws" will encourage Arron to pay taxes that he currently dodges?
Can I just say, whatever his politics, flanagaj was honourable and prompt in paying up on the £1 bet on the Labour-SNP coalition.
So fast in fact that I'm not spending it yet as I'm not convinced May's coalition of chaos with the DUP will actually hold long enough to prevent a more sensible coalition.
However I don't think a second referendum is a good idea. I have no doubt that a costed hard Brexit option would lose, but it would reinforce the divisions in society that the leave campaign initiated before and after last June. We shouldn't do this sort of thing by referenda if we value a cohesive British society.
However I don't think a second referendum is a good idea.
You're right. It should be best of three.
Nooooooooo....
It'll be interesting to see the reaction from the Leave side of the fence (I'm not using that f***ing word) once there's a costed plan in place and they can finally putting a figure on "Getting back control". Will it be £100s or £1000s each? That'll focus minds. . . .
What makes you think they are going to supply figures? Or if they do that they will be accurate and not just there to trick the gullible?
Arron Banks.
And he was one of the biggest - if not the biggest - funding sources for the leave campaign. He pumped millions into Leave.EU (IIRC).
[url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arron_Banks ]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arron_Banks[/url]
Read that Brexit fanboys.
Unless you are already part of the billionaire club I will just pop up another wiki link:
[url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot ]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot[/url]
How, how can any normal (or even wealthy by reasonable standards) person continue to be so deluded as to think Brexit is a good idea.
Shouty capitals time, because it really is worth it.......
YOU HAVE BEEN DUPED BY THE ULTRA-RICH INTO GIVING UP YOUR EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS IN THE EVENT OF HARD BREXIT. WHATEVER REASONS YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE VOTING FOR ARE UNLIKELY TO COME TO FRUITION UNLESS YOU WERE VOTING TO MAKE THE OBSCENELY RICH EVEN RICHER AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OF US.
Please just admit it, you were done up like a kipper.
No insults there, no need for tell-taling. 'Useful idiots' is a common usage and conveys the correct level of cynicism on the part of the people pulling the strings.
One of the UK businesses of which Banks is director, Rock Services Ltd, had a turnover of £19.7m last year and paid corporation tax of £12,000. The company deducted £19.6m in "administrative expenses", and the main activity appears to be "recharge of goods and services" with Southern Rock Insurance Company.
Nice of him to leave a derisory hundred grand to be token-taxed. A very eloquent two fingers to all of us. Classy.
ourmaninthenorth - Member
You're right. It should be best of three.However I don't think a second referendum is a good idea.
igm - Member
Nooooooooo....
It should best of five ... five thousand (5,000) that is ... 😆
Edit: Breaking news - Tim "shouty shouty" Farron has resigned due to his personal belief apparently ... 😯
I suspect that the words about Freedom of Movement are being disingenuous - if you ninfan it, you realise it is simply a statement of fact, it says nothing about what will be negotiated as part of the deal to retain access to the Single Market, which is part of what they will "put first"I wouldn't be so sure on that. What was largely, or even wholly, ignored during the referendum debates were the left wing arguments for leaving. By this I mean the far left of British politics, including the British Communist Party, The Morning Star, several socialist Labour MPs, a large number of trade unionists and if they'd not been in the shadow cabinet Messrs Corbyn and McDonnell.
The Labour manifesto probably says it wishes to end freedom of movement as the hard left's opposition the EU, amongst other things is that freedom of movement is viewed by those on the far left as being freedom of exploitation of ALL European workers. I have tried to explain, on many occasions, how this is different to being against immigration but I can't get past the accusations of being a swivelled eyed loon, who is obviously a racist and doesn't want foreigners coming to our country. The difference may be nuanced but to those who have devoted their lives fighting for worker's rights it is seen as a valid reason for wanting to leave.
you were done up like a kipper.
I see what you did there.
[quote=whattiler ]The Labour manifesto probably says it wishes to end freedom of movement
Except it doesn't - it has it as a statement of fact of what will happen when we leave the EU.
I do understand your argument, and the left wing argument for leaving - which I will even acknowledge has some validity. It just suffers from the same problem as all arguments for leaving, in that the benefits are limited compared to the losses (the other trouble with that left wing argument is that it ignores the issue of a right wing government taking us out and tearing up workers' rights).
But then I'm the sort of centrist who finds hard right wing and hard left wing policies equally bad - it's just that despite Corbyn being far more of a lefty than the Labour party has been for a while, I'm finding him far nearer my personal politics that the current Tory party!
The difference may be nuanced but to those who have devoted their lives fighting for worker's rights it is seen as a valid reason for wanting to leave.
Don't take away my rights, in the name of worker's rights, thanks,
1) The opportunity to scrap an enormous burden of legislation, some of it admittedly arcane and to start from scratch.2) To cause a severe shock to the UK economy, to force a restructure and eventual recovery. This approach is sometimes known as 'Disaster Capitalism'.
3) To erode and repeal EU legislation protecting the workforce - note the language from pro-Brexit MPs proclaiming protection for employee rights in the workplace - which most workers will not be afford to enforce through tribunal courts since a fee was introduced. There's a strong drive amongst Brexiteers to take advantage of our low skill, poor productivity workforce as the cheaper option to fixing the skills and productivity gap, which requires investment.
A lot of the thinking is based on the experience of European economies in the immediate post war period, the restructures inevitably paved the way for prosperity for countries like Germany. Of course, they neglect to mention the existence of The Marshall Plan...
re pt2 - we had a severe shock to the economy in 2008, haven't restructured (we're in even more government and personal debt, house prices are even more unaffordable and we're still dependent on debt-driven consumer spending and a badly behaved financial sector) - and still haven't recovered. I'm not sure what kind of shock these people think will improve this situation?
As well as The Marshall Plan, we also had the happy situation of a baby boom - leading a massive boost in the working age population from the early 60's which then drove productivity and GDP growth. Plus, given we were bust after WW2 - any economic growth would have looked good in % terms... Plus every European economy, supported by USA was working at the same time to rebuild the continent, it wasn't just one country on it's own.
These people are lunatics.
These people are lunatics.
Some are, others are cynical profiteers who will be alright no matter what the outcome (but will be considerably better off if a hard Brexit occurs).
It's not difficult to call in a few favors when you leave office and pick up a handful of non-exec 'directorships' 'working' for people whose agendas you pushed whilst in position.
Do you think David Davies will be on the board of Tate&Lyle when he steps down?
One of the few companies guaranteed to benefit hugely from a Hard Brexit (and his old employer).
[quote=kelvin ]Do you think David Davies will be on the board of Tate&Lyle when he steps down?
One of the few companies guaranteed to benefit hugely from a Hard Brexit (and his old employer).
They're a truly multi-national company that will definitely be impacted by a hard brexit
Impacted - in a good way. For obvious reasons. One of the few clear cut cases.
They're a truly multi-national company that will definitely be impacted by a hard brexit
[url= http://www.brexitgoldenopportunity.com/ ]"Golden Oppurtunity", says Tate & Lyle [/url]
1) Cameron signed Article 50 within days of the result
2) Move straight to WTO rules
3) Emergency budget to stimulate the economy.
You can't play chess with a pigeon.
- but an American company."a much-loved British brand"
Anyway, some cushy money heading DD's way when he leaves office, if everything goes their way, I suspect.
[Except it doesn't - it has it as a statement of fact of what will happen when we leave the EU.]
Which is probably a compromise with the NEC which is overwhelmingly centrist. I can't envision Corbyn and McDonnell trying too hard to ensure freedom of movement in any negotiations, for ideological reasons and because they know that is what the majority of Brexiteers wanted, and would be a vote loser.
they know that is what the majority of Brexiteers wanted, and would be a vote loser.
A majority of brexit voters is a minority of the population. With younger voters who overwhelmingly supported remain is it worth a go? Plenty of leave voters will be more concerned with dementia tax at the moment
I don't know if it's worth a go. Corbyn and McDonell seem to me to be prinicpled politicians, let's see if they stick to them. Principles only mean something if you stick to them when it's inconvenient. Young voters did overwhelmingly vote remain, they also overwhelmingly voted for a party lead by two of the most eurosceptic Labour MPs.
they also overwhelmingly voted for a party lead by two of the most eurosceptic Labour MPs.
Really? After all the Tories?
Really.
most eurosceptic Labour MPs does not equal most eurosceptic MPs.
Not even close
That's a straw man. I never implied that because they were two of the most eurosceptic Labour MPs they were more eurosceptic than the Tories.
Look at Corbyn's voting records on Europe, voted against Maastricht and Lisbon and voted to come out of the EEC in 75. I'm sure there will be some interesting debates between Corbyn/McDonnell and the moderates in the party in the coming weeks.
Anyway I didn't want to get in to a debate on here, I just wanted to point out the massive elephant in the room that the Labour voting remainers are ignoring. Corbyn and McDonnell are no fans of the EU, I think that's on record enough. I'm happy with how I voted, both in the referendum. I voted leave based on my socialist principles, and I'm happy with how I voted in GE2017, Labour based on my socialist principles. I'm more at ease than I have been voting Labour for the last 20 odd years.
wanted to point out the massive elephant in the room that the Labour voting remainers are ignoring. Corbyn and McDonnell are no fans of the EU, I think that's on record enough.
yet 2 of the most rebellious MPs in the party, were remainers, I have no doubt that if they wanted to Leave theyd have said so during the referendum campaign
I just wanted to point out the massive elephant in the room that the Labour voting remainers are ignoring. Corbyn and McDonnell are no fans of the EU
I voted Labour and I voted Remain. I put having a Corbyn led Labour government ahead of being in the EU. Tell me what I was supposedly ignoring please?
Ignoring, in the fact it hasn't been mentioned in any of the posts on this thread. That's all. Good for you by the way, sticking by your principles even when it's inconvenient.
Do you really believe that hand on heart Corbyn and McDonnell have had a sudden change of belief and are ardent remainers? Really. I do hope not as it would prove that all politicians would say or do anything to get elected and I'd probably never vote again.Besides it was the Labour Party's NEC's decision to back remain, not Corbyn and McDonnell's alone.
they also overwhelmingly voted for a party lead by two of the most eurosceptic Labour MPs.
Corbyn has already shown he is prepared to put the party's principles before his own if necessary. I think it's called being democratic or something.
As I said above there will be some interesting debate between the socialists and the centrists in the Labour party on which way the party is taken regarding the EU. Totally democratic I'm sure and if I don't agree with it then I'll totally democratically decide whether I want to continue supporting the Labour party.
Do you really believe that hand on heart Corbyn and McDonnell have had a sudden change of belief and are ardent remainers?
so why did they vote remain if they are so staunchly true to their principles?
Because he's not a dictator. It was a choice of the Labour Party as a whole as will the direction of the Labour Party post election. I can't believe I'm saying this for the 3rd time in half an hour, there will be debates amongst the cabinet and the NEC and a decision will be made. This doesn't alter the fact that they are both eurosceptic, their voting record and various writings and speeches, over 40 years shows this.
Do you really believe that hand on heart Corbyn and McDonnell have had a sudden change of belief and are ardent remainers?
Ardent remainers, no. In same way as I am not an ardent remainer.
To me it makes a lot more sense to remain than leave but if we were not already in the EU I am not sure I would be rushing to join
You make a good point. I can't say I'm an ardent leaver either, I based my decision on socialist principles and if there was a second referendum I would vote the same way as nothing so far has convinced me that it's worth foregoing those principles.
[quote=whattiler ]I can't envision Corbyn and McDonnell trying too hard to ensure freedom of movement in any negotiations, for ideological reasons and because they know that is what the majority of Brexiteers wanted, and would be a vote loser.
Probably not - but I'm hoping they might work quite hard to maintain access to the single market in negotiations, and take whatever is required to ensure that...
I can also appreciate how hardcore socialists reject most of the arguments against leaving the EU, because they're economic arguments, the conclusion of which is that it's bad for everybody if the economy does worse - I imagine such arguments look remarkably similar to those made for trickle down economics if you're inclined that way. However do you really still think it's a good idea to leave under the Tories? Are you ignoring their plans for workers rights?
There is an easy solution to the EU dilemma for labour - a second referendum
Normally, I can't help but feel a huge amount of irritation at Leave voters per se, however the opinions expressed in this thread seem to be have been reached after deliberation and no-one has mentioned immigration or "EU bureaucratic system" as a justification. It's good to debate with people whom you disagree with.
I couldn't have summed up my view any better than aracer already has.
To rewind a little, one the final picture becomes clear, I think that the public must be consulted. However, we need to keep Big Data and the tabloid press muzzled other than to report on actual fact as we know it.
There must also be a commitment to punitive action against Leave supporting politicians if we do indeed decide to continue with Brexit and it transpires that we were misled in any way - i.e. worker rights eroded, tariffs passed on to consumers, lack of staff in the NHS and economic damage. The only way to do this properly is to compel our politicians to tell the truth, with the penalty of lengthy imprisonment as a deterrent.
I based my decision on socialist principles
Lexit doesn't exist, Leaving will screw over workers in many painful ways, whoever is the government.
I liked a lot of the Labour mainfesto, and at least they made a good effort at costing it, but it ignored the costs of Brexit, and the help business and workers will need just to keep employment and real wages from falling.
I can't say I'm an ardent leaver either, I based my decision on socialist principles
And yet the EU is in many respects socialist, and certainly more socialist as a whole than the UK.
I don't think anything is a good idea under the Tories. We were given the vote when we were and had to vote on it when given the chance. Look how much has changed since the referendum. We had a Tory majority with plans for ever deepening austerity and a deeply divided and weak Labour Party. Where are we now, and I'm not saying it's because of the referendum or that I or anybody predicted it would be the outcome. We have a Tory in minority government, a strong and hopefully united socialist Labour party with a mandate to oppose austerity. Sometimes you have to act on principle and hope that you can affect change in the way that you want to.
Workers rights have been eroded for nearly 40 years, even under Blair things didn't improve. The social charter was a bone that the the EU threw at us in the 80s and was grasped with both hands by Kinnock in the face of ever increasing Thatcherism. The centrist left have clung on to it ever since. The EU never has been a social organisation, it's an unfettered free market capitalist organisation that cares not for workers rights.
You're right in that I am inclined no to agree with trickle down economics, and yes, this does form my main argument against the EU. It's a race to the bottom for workers whilst the profits are supposed to trickle down, it hasn't worked.
I can also appreciate how hardcore socialists reject most of the arguments against leaving the EU, because they're economic arguments, the conclusion of which is that it's bad for everybody if the economy does worse - I imagine such arguments look remarkably similar to those made for trickle down economics if you're inclined that way. However do you really still think it's a good idea to leave under the Tories? Are you ignoring their plans for workers rights?
I agree. There's a principled left-wing argument for leaving the EU: it's not a socialist body, as its treatment of Greece demonstrated. But as you say, what matters is what happens, and I don't see any tory-negotiated exit being good for the ordinary man or woman.
[quote=whattiler ]
The EU never has been a social organisation, it's an unfettered free market capitalist organisation that cares not for workers rights.
Limits on working hours
A minimum of 48 hours off work per fortnight and a rest time of at least 11 consecutive hours (12 hours for young people) every day.
Workers must be given at least four weeks (20 days) of paid leave per year. (less than the UK's 28 though)
Equal pay between men and women
Maternity rights
Parental leave
Anti-discrimination laws
Compensation for discrimination victims
Agency worker protections
Health and Safety Framework Directive
Yip, zero workers' rights thanks to the EU. 🙄
