[Closed] Cameron v Miliband

oh I don't know. The other two acts showed ample "knobishness", however I would not turn over to BBC2 at 8pm to watch them. Paxman I might.

Dave was vile, arrogant, self-satisfied, evasive and brandished his full sense of entitlement. Ed was like a rabbit in the headlights - utterly clueless, with the social skills of a particularly awkward 13 year old spod, and all the passion of a breeze block. Out of his depth from the first minute

So we learnt an awful lot tonight then?

Did they employ the charade of answering everyone by name? It's all the rage these days.

How many thumb fists were there, as demonstrated by Blair?

[img] [/img]

Ed asked someone's name, then within seconds called him the wrong name.

Media training is one thing. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't teach it to wind surf

Their overuse of the word 'look' every time they spoke really irritated me. Agree completely with binners' comments on Call Me Dave, could quite easily punch him.

Just to add ... was recently reading about the other Miliband who's threatening to throw his hat in the ring at next election time. Apparently New York love him.

"Are you ok ed" at the end hahhahahahahah classic

😛 I think Cameron is better in presenting himself while Ed needs a lot of polishing up but both are still behind Blair ...

binners - Member
Ed asked someone's name, then within seconds called him the wrong name.
Media training is one thing. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't teach it to wind surf

Like Ed says who cares if he doesn't look the slickest like Cam and Blair. Policies and principles are what matters. What would you rather have Ed or Dave as PM? That is the choice.

CG - did you catch Dave, right at the start, referring to the audience as 'you people' ? Kind of says it all about his attitude to the electorate.

As he Blah blah blah'd on in his smug, oily, self-entitled, I'm so bloody pleased with myself way, while he singularly failed to answer a single bloody question asked him, my thoughts did drift off to implements of medieval torture

principles? Like brotherly love 😉

But you lot got to admit that Ed is not as polished as Cameron just by looking at the way both handle the questions by Paxman.

teamhurtmore - Member
principles? Like brotherly love

What? Ed shouldn't have put himself forward for the leadership of his party just because his brother put his hat in the ring as well? Didn't realise elder brothers had some pre ordained devine right to the leadership of the party.

chewkw - Member
But you lot got to admit that Ed is not as polished as Cameron just by looking at the way both handle the questions by Paxman.

You are right Cameron is much slicker, he is a PR conman.

The problem with Milliband is competence. I'm authentic northern, working class scum. I loathe the Tories with every fibre of my being, but I don't think Ed could run a bath, never mind a country. I saw nothing tonight that made me think otherwise.

Any vote for him will just be 'Anyone But Dave'. You can't tell me that people are going to vote for ed out of a passionate belief in his abilities. He's a total ****-wit! He stands for what? Who knows? He certainly doesn't appear too. But I suppose that's better to take a punt on than the genuinely nasty party! Not confidence inspiring, is it?

Christ! Has our democracy ever looked more threadbare?

Were either of them suffering from a huge cold?

fr0sty125 - Member

teamhurtmore - Member
principles? Like brotherly love

What? Ed shouldn't have put himself forward for the leadership of his party just because his brother put his hat in the ring as well? Didn't realise elder brothers had some pre ordained devine right to the leadership of the party.

The brother might have better chance with his experience. Just because he put himself forward and got voted does not mean he is the best candidate. He is the best Labour got at that/this moment. Bear in mind that's the only best choice available. You could do worst with any of the Balls and if you have Balls in it will be an own goal. Back of the net! 😀

fr0sty125 - Member

chewkw - Member
But you lot got to admit that Ed is not as polished as Cameron just by looking at the way both handle the questions by Paxman.

You are right Cameron is much slicker, he is a PR conman.

You got to remember you need Merican style PR team. Although you are/ might be able to see their PR stunt the ordinary folks cannot ... 😆

binners - Member

The problem with Milliband is competence. I'm authentic northern, working class scum. I loathe the Tories with every fibre of my being, ...

Ya, ya, we/I hear you, I am in the GeordieLand and my working class, socialist and communist colleagues always bang on and on about their hatred of the Tories ... they never stop. 😆

[quote=binners ]So we learnt an awful lot tonight then?

Genuine thanks for confirming I didn't miss anything.

binners - Member
You can't tell me that people are going to vote for ed out of a passionate belief in his abilities. He's a total ****-wit! He stands for what? Who knows? He certainly doesn't appear too. But I suppose that's better to take a punt on than the genuinely nasty party! Not confidence inspiring, is it?

Christ! Has our democracy ever looked more threadbare?

Ed M is genuinely the most intelligent man I have met in politics.

Policies and principles are what matters.

Good point fr0sty. And since there are no discernible differences between them it matters little which one you choose.

Luckily other political parties are also standing. If you want a choice.

Dave likes to put himself forward as the Heir to Blair. He isn't. Ed truly is. He's the stuttering, clueless, absolutely idealogically vacuous testimony to what that charlatan did to the Labour Party. He hasn't the first idea of what the Labour Party is meant to represent. Not a clue! And he's the best they've got? Tragic!

The scary thing is that Dave has modelled his party on Blairs model. So what we've got is 2 main parties of our democratically elected representatives who, in reality, are just administrators, rubber stamping the wishes of the corporate lobbyists, whose boardroom, tax exiled, non-Dom paymasters pay for their election campaigns.

Politics doesn't actually exist in this country any more. Not in the two main parties anyway. They're just admin staff

Is it any wonder we're all looking for alternatives?

Cameron trying as hard as he can to avoid using the phrase "You oiks". Miliband trying to sound tough. Paxman laughing at him when he said he could get a majority. It was hilarious.

binners - Member

They're just admin staff

You mean bureaucrats? Yes? Told youuu ...

bencooper - Member

Cameron trying as hard as he can to avoid using the phrase "You oiks". Miliband trying to sound tough. Paxman laughing at him when he said he could get a majority. It was hilarious.

At one point I thought Cameron was going to be so inflated he would float in the air.

Miliband I thought was going to cry if Paxman kept on "bullying" him.

are just administrators,

Progress then? Apart from the high offices of state, that sounds almost perfect.

ernie_lynch - Member

Good point fr0sty. And since there are no discernible differences between them it matters little which one you choose.

Luckily other political parties are also standing.

Yeah Labour doesn't want to...

*scrap the bedroom tax
*Repeal the privatisation measures in the health and social care act
*Create a job guarantee for every young person out of a job
*Integrate health and social care
*Cap energy prices while fixing the energy market
*Outlaw sky high letting agent fees
*Raise the minimum wage to £8
*Reverse the millionaires Tax Break
*Introduce 25 hours of free childcare a week for working families
*Effectively scrap zero hour contracts

Labour had 13 years to show that they were significantly different to the Tories Fr0sty, they failed to do so. In fact Labour were able to carry out a right-wing agenda which a Tory government would have struggled to implement, eg, even more privatisation and new military adventures.

*Raise the minimum wage to £8

Eventually. At a rate not much faster than inflation.

The Labour Party goons must be shitting themselves at the prospect of minority government. They'll be to implement any policy they want 😆 The Tories will vote with them to support anything Right Wing and the SNP will vote with them to support anything Left Wing. With a completely free hand, they'll have to show the electorate where they really stand. No wonder Ed looks like a rabbit in the headlights.

ernie_lynch - Member
Labour had 13 years to show that they were significantly different to the Tories Fr0sty, they failed to do so. In fact Labour were able to carry out a right-wing agenda which a Tory government would have struggled to implement, eg, even more privatisation and new military adventures

What a load of crap when Labour took power in 1997 our schools and hospitals had been neglected and the Tories were considering calling it a day with the NHS saying it couldn't work. Labour modernised our public services transforming the NHS and education. Yes New Labour is not my cup of tea but still far better than the Tories.

binners - Member

I'm authentic northern, working class scum. I loathe the Tories with every fibre of my being,

Really? **** me, I had never noticed that before in amongst your thoughtful and rational posts on politics. 🙂

Ah that favourite New Labour word "modernised". You mean like when they introduced private sector into the NHS, that modernisation?

Another example of Labour implementing right-wing policies which a Tory government would have struggled with is NHS prescription charges. In opposition Labour denounced every NHS prescription charge increase as "a tax on the sick", once elected to office the promptly put up NHS prescription charges, without a squeak from the Tories of course. Labour just didn't have to look over their shoulders like the Tories did.

Labour Party hypocrites oppose Tory government policies when in opposition but not when in government.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]

are just administrators,

Interesting snippage, the bit just after was:

rubber stamping the wishes of the corporate lobbyists, whose boardroom, tax exiled, non-Dom paymasters pay for their election campaigns.

I don't think I've ever found myself in such agreement with northern working class scum.

ernie_lynch - Member
Ah that favourite New Labour word "modernised". You mean like when they introduced private sector into the NHS, that modernisation?
Another example of Labour implementing right-wing policies which a Tory government would have struggled with is NHS prescription charges. In opposition Labour denounced every NHS prescription charge increase as "a tax on the sick", once elected to office the promptly put up NHS prescription charges, without a squeak from the Tories of course. Labour just didn't have to look over their shoulders like the Tories did.
Labour Party hypocrites oppose Tory government policies when in opposition but not when in government.

No I mean all the hospitals that were built the thousands of Doctors and nurses that recruited. The thousands of new schools that were built the additional teachers recruited the additional police officers hired. Sure start centres and free childcare.

You and Binners can complain about the party not being what you want but all you two do is moan about it on a forum if you actually involved yourself in the party maybe you could help change it. Instead you will probably moan on here vote for the green party no better than a scab or a splitter.

[quote=fr0sty125 ]No I mean all the hospitals that were built...

Using PFI? How left wing.

Instead you will probably moan on here vote for the green party no better than a scab or a splitter.

Judean People's Front actually.

...maybe you could help change it.

The Labour Party is beyond that, it can't be saved, it's lost.

And even if change was possible so that it once again became what it previously was that certainly wouldn't happen under the conditions of election victories.

The only conceivable way that the grip of the thoroughly undemocratic hard right which now controls the Labour Party could be loosened would be if the party experienced catastrophic election disasters.

Voting Labour in May will change [u]nothing.[/u]

The British working people need a new party to speak for them.

.

And btw : [i]"all you two do is moan about it on a forum"[/i]. You know nothing about me.

[quote=ernie_lynch ]And btw : "all you two do is moan about it on a forum". You know nothing about me.

😆 I thought about commenting, but didn't think you needed me to defend you

Fortunately I fell asleep during "Just call me Dave" slot,could feel myself getting angry at the fact he couldn't answer a question directly. Hate to think what he's like at home - Mrs Cameron "so Dave,fancy a quickie?", by the time he's answered her she'd probably lose the urge.

If this pair are the pinnacle of British politics no wonder UKIP are creeping up in popularity- not that have anything planned.

How does that follow? The likes of Farrage and Salmond make Dave and ED look totally straight. They lie, deceive and manipulate as a matter of course. Both parties are based on fundamental lies from the start. The "wonder" is that people fall for it. A lot of them by the looks of things. Quite extraordinary. Nige and Nicola riding to the rescue???????

Perhaps the problem is Paxo. They know he is out to make them look foolish and him intelligent, so they are trained to stick to script. The downside is always bigger than the upside.

For all their faults, I find it amazing that they can carry so much info in their heads and not make mistakes with data or other minor points. The expectations are for superhuman behaviour without a safety net.

The biggest problem with labour is Ed Balls, a disaster waiting to happen. Whilst this man remains in his position I won't even consider voting labour.

Ed M is genuinely the most intelligent man I have met in politics.

Seriously?? I've met him and got the overwhelming impression that he was a massive tool, but that could just be that he is, whilst not necessarily making him _not_ the most intelligent man in politics. But that is hardly a shining endorsement for the rest of them.

Don't even get me started on PFI. Not content with crippling hospitals with massive debts, that whole system is now doing the same thing to the military.

[quote=fr0sty125 said]
Ed M is genuinely the most intelligent man I have met in politics.

Is this as a "man on the street" punter or are you involved in politics ?

For all their faults, I find it amazing that they can carry so much info in their heads and not make mistakes with data or other minor points. The expectations are for superhuman behaviour without a safety net

I take your point,what I was trying to say,very badly I admit,that to a lot of people think they're all the same and that Farage/UKIP are an alternative in their small little world.

Sorry but Ed's not leader material, having him as PM would be humliating for the UK. He's so far out of his depth he looks like he's about to drown at any time.

What would you rather have Ed or Dave as PM? That is the choice.

I really wish the labour offering was more confidence inspiring, but Ed M and Ed Balls running the ship, i'm definitely voting for Dave.

Low BOE, low monthly mortgage payments, inflation at zero, I'm definitely better off than when labour were in power.

I am totally unsold on either party - used to vote lib dem but that isn't happening ever again - however what is really interesting is that people are actually talking about this.

Not just in the 'a general election is coming' sense but actually talking about it.

Surely even if the choices are both going to shaft us in the long run, the fact people - including my 6th form - are talking about this and seriously questioning what the parties are saying/stand for, well that is a good thing right?

It is just a shame that none of the main parties are convincing or putting up a good fight. All feels like a tallest dwarf competition - the winner will be the least * of a bad lot.

Or worse case, more people vote for U.

*shudder*

Neither of them are the ones who should be the choice under consideration.

The real choice is:

Osborne, or Balls?

It's still the economy, stupid.

No I mean all the hospitals that were built the thousands of Doctors and nurses that recruited. The thousands of new schools that were built the additional teachers recruited the additional police officers hired. Sure start centres and free childcare.

I'm usually one of the labour party critics, but I've got to defend Frosty here. Take a drive around any northern town or city and you'll see brand spanking new schools and health centres everywhere. The tories didn't build them.

I actually thought Miliband came across quite well last night. He showed some of the passion that people criticise him for lacking. What frustrates me is that he yet again failed to defend the good things labour did when in power, like the things mentioned above, and instead allows commentators to peddle this revisionist story that labour wasted billions on nothing and this was what caused the deficit. It's total fiction.

Just to add ... was recently reading about the other Miliband who's threatening to throw his hat in the ring at next election time. Apparently New York love him.

I saw a US interview of him the other week. I'd be fine with him as PM. His brother is just embarrassing. Wasn't nice to see him told to his face what a useless backstabbing weasel he is though. Couldn't help feeling sorry for him, but that's probably not a good reason to give him the job.

I saw a US interview of him the other week. I'd be fine with him as PM.

Funny how quickly people forget. With his close ties to Blair and his role in the Iraq warmongering there was no way he could be leader. If he was sat there on the telly last night Paxman and the audience would have spent the entire time crucifying him on Iraq. He should never have stood in the first place. Yes, he'll probably be a labour leader, and probably PM at some point in the future, but it would never have worked now. He should probably thank his brother for saving him from himself.

I was fine with Blair too. I didn't vote for him, didn't like his party, didn't like his policies, but he wasn't an embarrassment like Major.

but he wasn't an embarrassment like Major.

No he was just a hubristic, egotistic megalomaniac, and subsequent war criminal. Still, as long as he looked good on telly and didn't come across as a bit of a wimp, that's all that matters 🙄

I saw a US interview of him the other week. I'd be fine with him as PM.

I keep hearing how great David Milliband is, can someone please remind me of his great achievements when he was in office. I do recall he was destroyed on QT once for not knowing that Robert Mugabe held a Knighthood, he was foreign secretary at the time.

What? Ed shouldn't have put himself forward for the leadership of his party just because his brother put his hat in the ring as well? Didn't realise elder brothers had some pre ordained devine right to the leadership of the party.

There remain plenty of Labour MPs who voted in favour of the Iraq war are there not? Only Diane Abbot can claim to have been anti, and even she wasn't so principled to have considered it worth resigning over (unlike Robin Cook).

There remain plenty of Labour MPs who voted in favour of the Iraq war are there not? Only Diane Abbot can claim to have been anti, and even she wasn't so principled to have considered it worth resigning over (unlike Robin Cook).

That's true, but there are also many tories who supported it too. Hardly any labour or tory MPs at the time come out of Iraq with any credibility, but the buck stops with the leadership at the time, and DM was an integral part of that.

allthepies - Member
fr0sty125 said »
Ed M is genuinely the most intelligent man I have met in politics.
Is this as a "man on the street" punter or are you involved in politics ?

Involved.

Involved.

Me we ask how? Always interesting to get an insight that comes from behind the media firewall. I've got a mate who used to work in the lobbying industry and had lots of contact with MPs on both sides. What he used to tell me was quite interesting and sometime quite eye-opening.

Me we ask how?

[quote=fr0sty125 said]allthepies - Member
fr0sty125 said »
Ed M is genuinely the most intelligent man I have met in politics.
Is this as a "man on the street" punter or are you involved in politics ?
Involved.

In the interests of transparency, how exactly ?

The real choice is:
Osborne, or Balls? It's still the economy, stupid.

Indeed, so which one is least likely to get in the way of value creation and economic recovery?

These people react to events, they do not drive them. Osborne's skill (sic) was to do exactly the opposite of what he said he would do ie, when market pressures were off, he eased off the misnamed austerity policy - the result.....?

Of course, this led to slipping on the deficit figures for he which (absurdly) he gets attacked. But then again the whole current economic debate is completely ar$e over t1t anyway. And CMD and GO still pretend that the recovery is based on policies they didn't implement.

MM 4 minute apart DP most strange

Osborne's skill (sic) was to do exactly the opposite of what he said he would do

Some would call what GO has done lying and being deceitful and all the others words you use for the SNP and UKIP. For some reason you seem to have been less forthright in your criticism of his lies.

What would you rather have Ed or Dave as PM? That is the choice.

The leader of the opposition always looks weak as the PM is the PM so can claim to be Prime Ministerial in nature

However Dave has had some terrible showings...remember when he went to the EU to argue our case over[ iirc] the EU leader and got no support and was humiliated?
I dont think he is as diplomatic or skilled as some seem to think he is.

Ed is untested and he suffers from the same as all the others - He does not help himself though

binners - Member
The problem with Milliband is competence. I'm authentic northern, working class scum. I loathe the Tories with every fibre of my being, ...

^This. I'm southern and grew up in a relatively affluent area, however we were not immune to the social destruction wrought by Thatcherism. I've never voted Tory, never contemplated voting Tory and I hope that I never will vote Tory so long as I have all my marbles in once place.

But I don't trust Ed. I'm angry at the policies that Labour [i]aren't[/i] making, Ed is very silent on some issues that concern me greatly. It's clear that big business has a louder voice than the people with votes in their pocket so far as both Milliband AND Cameron are concerned.

Well there is really only one candidate who can keep this country on track to recovery at the next election which is David Cameron. The rest just have no policy whatsoever so will result to excessive borrowing and all the good work thats been done in the last parliament will be undone.

Low BOE, low monthly mortgage payments, inflation at zero, I'm definitely better off than when labour were in power.

Obviously those things are all down to CallMe and his snooty pals, right?

Obviously those things are all down to CallMe and his snooty pals, right?

Of course, you know that Cameron personally controls the world economy, and orchestrated the 2008 crash specifically to bring interest rates down across the first world, just so our mortgage payments would be less.

Well there is really only one candidate who can keep this country on track to recovery at the next election which is David Cameron. The rest just have no policy whatsoever so will result to excessive borrowing and all the good work thats been done in the last parliament will be undone.

The rest just have no policy whatsoever so will result to excessive borrowing and all the good work thats been done in the last parliament will be undone.

Another example of the fiction that the tories and their media partners have been successful in portraying as the established facts. The labour party do have policies. You may disagree with them but they are there. The tories are just as evasive in the detail of their policies. Who defines 'excessive' borrowing? Yes labour will borrow more, they've admitted that, but who's to say it's excessive? Was GO handing out wads of cash to house buyers not also 'excessive'? And one person's 'good work' is another persons impoverishment and persecution of the disabled, unemployed, and low paid workers so again pretty subjective.

dazh - Member

What frustrates me is that he yet again failed to defend the good things labour did when in power, like the things mentioned above, and instead allows commentators to peddle this revisionist story that labour wasted billions on nothing and this was what caused the deficit. It's total fiction.

TBH this is his problem right down the line, all he does is react to other people's agendas and versions of events, he's hopeless at getting to the root and saying "No, that's pish" To be fair, with an openly hostile media it'd be very hard for him to get a complex message across but he never seems to try.

But for instance, Cameron sets an absurd antidemocratic agenda about Scottish voters not being "allowed" power in what he tells tories is "our country". Milliband falls over himself to promise not to work with the SNP. He never even seemed to consider going "You know what, it's a democracy, if Scotland returns 50 SNP MPs then they have every right to influence at Westminster. How dare the PM talk of "allowing" voters to have influence in their own country? Who else's votes shouldn't count? The majority of Scots voted to stay in the UK, but will have an SNP MP after the election, and many SNP voters voted No in the referendum- when did they become "these people"? We asked Scotland to stay, they voted to stay, now we work with them in OUR country. Because otherwise, they were bloody right and they should have left" You know, for example.

Union funding? Shat it. Economy? Shat it. He's useless at charismatic leadership but he still tries to be charismatic because his opponents do and all he can ever think to do is fight them at their own fight. And so on. Basically he's a multiple choice leader. I quite like the boy, but he's not doing the job. And it's obviously not just him, there's a whole party behind him not doing the job. When you're bad at the game the other feller is playing you're an idiot to keep playing.

The really interesting thing will be how this changes when he's in power.

Its Ok, NW he will do what [s]Alex[/s] Nicola tells him to!! 😉

What the TV debate showed clearly is a basic lack of conviction. Of course, they will only ever react to events but at least lets be clear about the framework that they will use to react. Its not focus groups its conviction and vision that is required.

Its Ok, NW he will do what Alex Nicola tells him to

Maybe he will, because that's what the people will have decreed should happen by voting for a hung parliament. Trouble is, this will be flung at him repeatedly and he'll try and deny it, when what he should be doing is highlighting that the tories are no different and are at the beck and call of corporate and other private interests which are much less democratic than any influence the SNP will have.

shhh dazh

people much prefer buying into what the right wing press constantly bludgeon them with

ouch even the most ardent milliband hater must have a dilema now....

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/katie-hopkins-might-just-have-won-the-election-for-labour--gJeNrDZktRg

Watched it, and was frustrated at the bint from sky who didn't interrupt Cameron once but just kept butting in the whole time when Milliband was speaking.

As for who is tough, what did you all want to see Milliband rip his shirt off revealing a mass of tattoo's and pummel Jeremy to a pulp, before shouting where's Clarkson I want a real fight?

I was under the misinformed idea this was a political thing not a dating agency to find the most charismatic person in a suit. Some of the questions where just farcical best of the worst was "why do you always sound so gloomy" and why does everyone keep banging on about his brother he isn't standing for election he isn't there move on please.

The whole thing left me no clearer which way I want to vote.

People are voting for a hung Parliament? I missed that....which box do you tick?

[quote=benji ]As for who is tough, what did you all want to see Milliband rip his shirt off revealing a mass of tattoo's and pummel Jeremy to a pulp, before shouting where's Clarkson I want a real fight?There's certainly a lot of folk who think that a strong leader (or one who appears so) is essential as they are seen as the external face of the country. It's all about our "standing" in the international community 🙄 I suspect it's the same folk who think we need to retain a nuclear deterrent. 😆

People are voting for a hung Parliament?

Pedantry. "People" as in the collective, but you knew that right?

There's certainly a lot of folk who think that a strong leader (or one who appears so) is essential

Look where that got us last time. Hundreds of thousands of dead people in the middle east god knows how many people who want to blow us up or cut our heads off.

No, I think justifying AS's latest BS along the lines that people voted for a hung party is rich even by recent standards.

Where did Paxo get his jacket from BTW? The North London Geek point was really pathetic and ill-befitting of Paxo. That was simply rude.

Given it was Ch 4/Sky the level of questions was appropriately low. Are they having a debate on Ch5 to raise the tone?