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How many refugees are Saudi's, Emirates etc taking in?
None. Your point being?
DrJ the point being they are very rich Middle Eastern countries who are physically, racially and socially much closer to Syria/Iraq etc than Germany or the rest of the EU.
The main three nationalities en route from Hungary are Syrians, Afghani's and Somalian (from news reports) Germany has said it will take all Syrians - so what happens to the other nationalities ? As I posted before the first train load of 2000 people to arrive in Munich 25% where immediately put into camps as having no chance of asylum/refugee status as they where from countries like Kosovo and Moldovia. There is a huge amount of opportunism going on.
I don't think it will be long before the news is reporting on forged passports and other documents, as it stands today if you can get a Syrian passport you have a major advantage over other nationalities,
Baghdad, Damascus, and Cairo, were great centres of learning often far ahead of Europe,
Indeed they where, so what has happened in the last 1000 years ? Why have they not only stagnated but regressed ? There are huge cultural differences, there are many who don't want democratically elected leaders. They believe their leaders should come from specific religious, ethnic or cultural groups. Even in eastern Turkey you will see very few women outside, they are confined to the home. Many countries in the Middle East where very mixed culturally and religiously, far less so now. Without the oil wealth the region would be incredibly poor.
The Quran explicitly states that it takes precedence over any man made law. The Bible (Old Testament) says the opposite, always respect the laws of the country in which you find yourself.
We should not underestimate the cultural challenges.
EDIT: I post the above as these refugees do not in my opinion wish to stay temporarily. It's my view they are under sting what they hope will be a permanent migration.
trek77 - Member
What about creating some kind of "Israel" type land where migrants could go.
And watch them annex all the lands around them 😉
Okay, not saying they would, but if they were Israeli then they would as history has shown since we "gave" them land that wasn't theirs or ours to call Israel. It's of course a bit more complex as they believe their particular work of fiction grants all the land in the area to be theirs.
More seriously though you have to be careful who you stick where as suddenly you can spark off conflict if you sit a group of one ethnicity next to another who might hate them for no good reason. Worse if you displace another population in the process.
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Just read on the Guradian website about a Syrian woman and her 4 children who is en route from Hungary to Germany. She has travelled from Saudi Arabia where she has been living for 18 years. Eighteen. Is it not safe there ? The article makes it clear she is traveling for free health care in Germany, I imagine it's not free in Saudi Arabia for non-Saudis.
I think it is abundantly clear that for a lot of people Saudi Arabia is not a safe country . Migrarant workers are treated appallingly read any of the reports about the building of infrastructure . Two of my former commercial clients worked their and saw non Saudis being beaten out of hand with impunity by overseers .
Also even if Saudi Arabia were a land of milk and honey for all one womens story may not tell story of 3 million other refugees.
There is a huge amount of opportunism going on.
Well why wouldn't there be?
Maybe we shouldn't ram McDonalds, Premier League football, cigarettes, smart phones, coca-cola etc down their necks and constantly try and promote to them a lifestyle they can't afford and make them feel shite as a result.
What do you expect them to do? We are quite happy to exploit them at any opportunity to turn a profit when it suits us. But god forbid those who want a taste of the real thing eh?
I am afraid we can no longer have it both ways. As has been pointed out, large amounts of people now have access to just about enough money to make a new life possible for them and their families. We have been telling and promoting to them for years what kind of shite they need for that to happen, yet we chastise them for coming after it.
DrJ the point being they are very rich Middle Eastern countries who are physically, racially and socially much closer to Syria/Iraq etc than Germany or the rest of the EU.
I don't think anyone disputes that the Saudis are a bunch of ****tards. My question is, so what? Are we supposed to say "well, the Saudis should help you, and if they don't we don't care if you get blown to bits by barrel bombs, or beheaded by bearded lunatics(*)?"
(*)Especially when the Saudis are probably funding and arming aforementioned bearded lunatics
I think the debate here is largely futile. Both sides would agree the UK should take 'some' of the world's desperately needy. The only question that needs debate is how many of the vast number do we take?
outofbreath - Member
I think the debate here is largely futile. Both sides would agree the UK should take 'some' of the world's desperately needy. The only question that needs debate is how many of the infinate number do we take?
At some point all the Islamic nations (some may not even be Islamic nation) will migrate to the west because of the fanatics pushing for a world wide "paradise" and "emptying" the region as they go along. If they (fanatics) are not stopped then it will happen much quicker in next few generations ...
Therefore, you should expect many from North Africa, Middle East and Central Asia ... take half or 3/4 from each region then you should have a rough idea. It's only a matter of when if the fanatics cannot be stopped.
Like I said previously the West will be dominated without having to go to war. Population wise you cannot compete with their birth rate.
Not good and for the skeptics remember I told you so here on STW ... I see them coming ...
Unless of course they don't feel the need to have as many children when it's not economically or otherwise advantageous/necessary as it is at home; or, if the higher levels of access to education and other liberation of women reduces the birthrate here as it has everywhere else, ever.
gofasterstripes - MemberUnless of course they don't feel the need to have as many children when it's not economically or otherwise advantageous/necessary as it is at home; or, if the higher levels of access to education and other liberation of women reduces the birthrate here as it has everywhere else, ever.
Or the survival instinct and the probability come into play with more children the better the chances of survival as everyone can pull in resources (family). Besides the state can pay for the initial childhood year support ...
Also bear in mind other cultures retain a lot of the family unity and many would live in one house.
p/s: Central Asia is slowly kicking off now ... Most of them have Dear Leaders so let's see how they handle their situation there. Many former CCCP has powerful weapons if they fall you will see the beginning of 3rd WW.
or, if the higher levels of access to education and other liberation of women reduces the birthrate here as it has everywhere else, ever.
Though in some groups the birthrate, while declining somewhat, remains high. There is no reason to believe that the birthrate of Middle East immigrants will not remain higher than the average UK rate.
The major mainly Muslim groups in the UK (Bangladeshis and ****stanis), offer contrasting examples. In both, fertility,although declining, has remained substantially above the UK national average.
We've just flown in from South Africa on our way to Spain - in SA we don't have a TV (through choice, I mean there is TV) so we're not up to speed on the whole immigrant situation. Just know what we know from the odd internet headlines.
Watching TV here now is a real eye opener.
Saw a guy on TV this morning comparing the current situation to evacuating children from Nazi Germany. Saw another guy, an American politician I think, saying you "can't put a dollar value on this aid" (I'm sure you can, and will have to actually). Very emotive and very conflicting views from people.
Heard a guy on the radio yesterday saying the father of the drowned children is wholly responsible for the death of his children, because he, for the third time (I think it was) had organized the very dangerous trip that lead to their death. The first trip led to deportation back home, the second trip never materialized after he paid the money.
Another person was talking about some of the immigrants marching on the freeway being barefoot while others were smoking. smoking & drinking whilst claiming poverty always sets a few people off.
On the same news bulletin last night there was a story about how much money the UK government should be pledging to help the immigrants and a story about 16 (??) cancer treatment drugs taken of the medicine list due to expense cuts.
It certainly is a messy and conflicting situation.
I'd be interested to know what's really in the hearts of the British public, not just the ones who get a slot on TV. Few people are so uncompassionate that they wouldn't feel for the immigrants plight, but at the same time the country has been experiencing budget cuts, NHS cuts etc etc for years.
I'll be watching with interest.
The major mainly Muslim groups in the UK (Bangladeshis and ****stanis), offer contrasting examples. In both, fertility,although declining, has remained substantially above the UK national average.
OK, but:
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What about everyone else?
Population wise you cannot compete with their birth rate.
Well, there's a lot of Europeans already here in Europe [500,000,000 via a quick google], so you're saying that we'll be outnumbered, when?
Then there's the declining birthrate of those already here. Who's going to work when we all retire?
I think you should also remember the last line of that report, irc :
"[i]The outcome of the ‘natural experiment’ noted in the introduction is, therefore, still unclear. Convergence of fertility is not a foregone conclusion, any more than it is among European countries themselves.[/i]"
It's not exactly a straight-up prediction, is it?
Lastly - this doesn't change the fact that we're morally obligated to help if we can. It doesn't mean it's the easy way - but it's still the way myself and others feel - we should - [b]because we can[/b].
EDIT: WRT the birth rate among those already here - there is a lack of integration and acceptance that has led [as binners noted] to a " 2nd or 3rd generation, disenfranchised muslim youth" - what happens if we actually just get the **** along?! I mean, with those coming now, let's not repeat the mistakes of the past.
Lastly - this doesn't change the fact that we're morally obligated to help if we can. It doesn't mean it's the easy way - but it's still the way myself and others feel - we should - because we can.
Nobody says we shouldn't help. But for a given budget more people can be helped nearer the country of origin. The UK is the second biggest donor in 2015 to the Syrian Emergency.
Any asylum seekers given residence in the UK should come directly from the camps in the region selected by agreed criteria. Not selected by who can get to Calais first which selects predominately fit young men with money. The numbers we should take are a matter for debate.
MODS - would it be possible to re-name this thread 'NIMBY APOCALYPSE' seeing as how it's veered off course..
thanks
yunki
gofasterstripes - Member
OK, but:
What about everyone else?
Your chart shows people seeking asylum ... S/he was referring to birth rate so perhaps you should have a chart related to birth rate.
Population wise you cannot compete with their birth rate.Well, there's a lot of Europeans already here in Europe [500,000,000 via a quick google], so you're saying that we'll be outnumbered, when?
Ts! Ts! Ts! You are lazy aren't you when it comes to google for information ... Eventually there will be a time where the population will be very different but you would be dead by then so I guess that does not bother you. Like I said previously it will be generations to come and that's the fact. When? You do the maths from here ...
[url= http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/15.3 ]Migration Watch UK - info here[/url]
Then there's the declining birthrate of those already here. Who's going to work when we all retire?
You mean you want others to feed you when you retire? Star saving now rather than waiting for handouts ... Also the welfare state might not even be sustainable in future.
I think you should also remember the last line of that report, irc :"The outcome of the ‘natural experiment’ noted in the introduction is, therefore, still unclear. Convergence of fertility is not a foregone conclusion, any more than it is among European countries themselves."
It's not exactly a straight-up prediction, is it?
OK, just had a quick read so not sure whether this is mentioned ... one point is that irrespective of the drop of the birth rate after the latter generations, if the first migrants had already produced say several children or above average but then their latter generations, although might meet the average, they are already slowly overtaking ... not sure if I explain this well ... so I shall try. (Ya, ya, I am not children eater nor I am going to crush the skulls of anyone ... just illustrating a point here about human reproduction or replication ...)
1. British (assuming 1st generation) = 2 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2 = 4.
2. Immigrant(assuming 1st generation) = 4 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2= 8.
You do the maths ...
Lastly - this doesn't change the fact that we're morally obligated to help if we can. It doesn't mean it's the easy way - but it's still the way myself and others feel - we should - because we can.
That depends on whether you force your ideology on others ... if you do force others to be morally obliged are you doing the right thing? Especially, if those people did not cause the suffering ... yes, they might be selfish but can they be be accountable? Why?
EDIT: WRT the birth rate among those already here - there is a lack of integration and acceptance that has led [as binners noted] to a " 2nd or 3rd generation, disenfranchised muslim youth" - what happens if we actually just get the **** along?! I mean, with those coming now, let's not repeat the mistakes of the
How can you blame the local population for their own disenfranchisement ... This argument is flaw on so many counts that I do not know where to begin ... oh well ... as the saying goes "if you want to bite the hands that feed you" ... something like that.
😯
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260019/hijrah-europe-robert-spencer
Now whilst I want to see actual asylum seekers being given support, what are we doing to filter out fighters? And why should we allow people in who are here because their home countries increasing prosperity allowed them to by the fares to get here in the first place. As others and studies have pointed out, asylum seeking and migration out of a country oddly enough tends to increase when it starts to develop more wealth. When it's actually so poor that the people can't feed or shelter themselves they have to stay put.
We are reaping the rewards of failing to convince the developing world that they will get a decent share of the worlds wealth as well.
I can honestly see Europe stuffing this up, not filtering the migrants properly, ghettoizing them etc. Combined with economic stagnation (especially in the south) and a concerted campaign by ISIS, we could end up with certain border states such as Greece and Spain resembling the internal strife of Colombia in the 1980's.
Your chart shows people seeking asylum
And your point was that the people coming are going to reproduce faster - the chart shows that the people coming are not only from the countries mentioned within the report as having a higher birthrate [Bangladesh and ****stan]
Like I said previously it will be generations to come and that's the fact. When? You do the maths from here ...Migration Watch UK - info here
Total 12,375,000 in 75 years - UK Population from the same site 65,000,000 in 2015 - so +19% according to that paper - as I said [Though I was talking about
Europe as a whole] - "when are we going to be outnumbered?" - answer : never.
Do you really think the UK will cease to function when 1 in 5 people is a migrant? I don't. [again, I was talking about Europe as a whole, so I don't really see your point]
- No I mean others to make up the economy. Who will work?! Money in a country full of retired people is no use. Are you trying to be obtuse?You mean you want others to feed you when you retire?
1. British (assuming 1st generation) = 2 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2 = 4.2. Immigrant(assuming 1st generation) = 4 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2= 8.
Yes, except your numbers are wrong, so it won't work out like that. Go read the paper you just sent me.
That depends on whether you force your ideology on others ... if you do force others to be morally obliged are you doing the right thing? Especially, if those people did not cause the suffering ... yes, they might be selfish but they certainly cannot be accountable.
Uh huh. But the people are speaking - in droves. They want to help. You would see that if you look around the internets. There are [as I said already] a lot of [s]older* [/s]people who don't want to help, but they appear, to me anyway, to be a minority. I am not attempting to pretend to be an expert/specialist acedemic, I am merely talking about my own experience and contributing to a discussion.
How can you blame the local population for their own disenfranchisement
I am suggesting that we have, historically, had a problem with lack on integration. But that that is not bound to repeat itself, and that as part of the solution of giving people asylum and accepting immigration of large numbers we MUST not alienate or scapegoat them. That [nationalism] is the root cause of many problems. See Israel for further details.
*I don't really feel happy writing that.... but it seems to me to be more the case than not, so I'll just leave it with this caveat: It's clumsy. Sorry.
@Tom_W1987 The article you link to is imo hate filled drivel however that's only my opinion. What is fact is that the author Robert Spencer is banned from travelling to the UK" for making statements that may foster hatred that might lead to inter-community violence".[4]source Wikipedia
Second, how do reduce resentment and fracturing of society along ethnic lines when we have this issue to deal with?
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@Tom_W1987 The article you link to is imo hate filled drivel however that's only my opinion. What is fact is that the author Robert Spencer is banned from travelling to the UK" for making statements that may foster hatred that might lead to inter-community violence".[4]source Wikipedia
Good point, was actually going to delete it but got to the 15 min mark after getting food. I want to see asylum seekers gaining help, I just really see Europe stuffing this up in a big big way. Bit embarrassed I managed to post that to be fair.
We won't spend the necessary resources making sure we don't end up resenting the migrants and they don't end up resenting us.
It's going to be one gigantic cock up.
INSIDE EVERY LIBERAL IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT
Reminds me of that [url= http://chicksontheright.com/blog/item/30773-have-you-seen-the-super-awesome-gun-that-has-cair-freaking-out ]Chicks on the Right[/url] / rightwingnews.com shit.
Barf.
We won't spend the necessary resources making sure we don't end up resenting the migrants and they don't end up resenting us.
Well, why the frack not?!
Because we won't even do that for our own disadvantaged types, let alone asylum seekers.
We will ride a wave of good will for a few years until the reality sets in and then we will renege on the responsibility for these people. Like we always do.
Boosting IQ and educational attainment up to our levels, will take next to 50 years won't it of concerted effort? By then, they will be another maligned section of society with an axe to grind living in a Europe full of white people who view them as inferior.
Because we won't even do that for our own disadvantaged types
You are assuming that nothing will change. Seems to me that the younger generation is feeling less like that [though the poisonous ideology of some must be countered, the internet is breaking down many barriers].
It is possible, especially if we don't, oh I don't know, spend 20, 30, 40bn on renewing Trident.
who view them as inferior
Well get the **** on with sorting that out then!
You are assuming that nothing will change. Seems to me that the younger generation is feeling less like that [though the poisonous ideology of some must be countered, the internet is breaking down many barriers].It is possible, especially if we don't, oh I don't know, spend 20, 30, 40bn on renewing Trident.
People are tossers, look what the hippy generation turned into. Tories.
@Tom_W1987 I do agree with one of your conclusions
I'd be careful if I was you though if you go around saying that wealth should be shared out fairly you'll be called a loony lefty,people will accuse you of being Corbynista and Tony Blair will repeatedly condemn you in angry speechesWe are reaping the rewards of failing to convince the developing world that they will get a decent share of the worlds wealth as well.
Not everybody was hip. Many were square.
Again, my apologies for that link. I am really quite embarrassed about it....posted on a sugar/energy bonk/crash.
Again, my apologies for that link. I am really quite embarrassed about it....posted on a sugar/energy bonk/crash.
@Tom _W1987 It's teh interweb whilst I don't agree with all your points they didn't seem to me to be racist in any way which made the link a bit puzzling.
People are tossers, look what the hippy generation turned into. Tories.
Maybe have a little faith...
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I'll have more faith in 5 years guys.....
😐
It's funny, my wifes cousin ones to come here as a nurse. But when you factor in the cost of living, the standard of living is not much better and in some respects worse than her home country. However, if you aren't educated in her home country then you are living on 2 dollars a day. Those that can afford to make the journey have dreams about the west that do not live up to reality, I think there is going to end up with so much disillusionment on both sides and I do not believe we are prepared to deal with that.
Granted if you are running from bombs and bullets it will be much better.
gofasterstripes - Member
Your chart shows people seeking asylum
And your point was that the people coming are going to reproduce faster - the chart shows that the people coming are not only from the countries mentioned within the report as having a higher birthrate [Bangladesh and ****stan]
That's asylum seeking chart and I was referring to birth rate ... yes, there are from many countries.
Migration Watch UK - info hereLike I said previously it will be generations to come and that's the fact. When? You do the maths from here ...
Total 12,375,000 in 75 years - UK Population from the same site 65,000,000 in 2015 - so +19% according to that paper - as I said [Though I was talking about Europe as a whole] - "when are we going to be outnumbered?" - answer : never.
+19% ... 😯 That will be more than enough to affect any policy ...
Not all Europe has large population like UK, France and Germany so those smaller EU nations will definitely feel the force if there is policy that is force on them indirectly via EU (due to their internal influences)
Do you really think the UK will cease to function when 1 in 5 people is a migrant? I don't. [again, I was talking about Europe as a whole, so I don't really see your point]
It will certainly affect/change certain policy(s) good or bad. Of course the state will still function but why should there be change if democracy means the majority rule?
You mean you want others to feed you when you retire?- No I mean others to make up the economy. Who will work?! Money in a country full of retired people is no use. Are you trying to be obtuse?
Are we in full employment yet? Your question makes no sense by making the assumption that there will not be enough people to work hence the economy will not perform ... Until you have full employment there will always be the unemployed and people looking for jobs.
On the contrary I am not being insensitive but rather surprised by the utopia view that there would not be enough people to contribute to your retirement ...
By the way when you retire you are obsolete and your views are old so why do you bother since you make the assumption the older views are just minority views ... when you retire you are exactly that. Obsolete.
1. British (assuming 1st generation) = 2 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2 = 4.
2. Immigrant(assuming 1st generation) = 4 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2= 8.
Yes, except your numbers are wrong, so it won't work out like that. Go read the paper you just sent me.
That's precisely my point because the paper does not mention anything like my illustration ... 🙄 Wrong? Time will tell ...
That depends on whether you force your ideology on others ... if you do force others to be morally obliged are you doing the right thing? Especially, if those people did not cause the suffering ... yes, they might be selfish but they certainly cannot be accountable.Uh huh. [b]But the people are speaking - in droves.[/b] They want to help. You would see that if you look around the internets. There are [as I said already] a lot of older* people who don't want to help, but they appear, to me anyway, to be a minority. I am not attempting to pretend to be an expert/specialist acedemic, I am merely talking about my own experience and contributing to a discussion.
Again, there are simply too many flaws in this argument which I do not know where to start.
I mean you are counting interweb? Crikey ... you do know on interweb you only look at things you like don't you? Talking about biases ... 🙄
How can you blame the local population for their own disenfranchisementI am suggesting that we have, historically, had a problem with lack on integration. But that that is not bound to repeat itself, and that as part of the solution of giving people asylum and accepting immigration of large numbers we MUST not alienate or scapegoat them. That [nationalism] is the root cause of many problems. See Israel for further details.
What do you mean by integration? As long as nobody is harming each other and has a peace of mind that is that ... what's this so called integration about? Are you going to force people to integrate? Why?
For example, if people don't eat pork are you going to force them to eat pork? Likewise, if the local population does not want Halal/Kosher food whatever do you force them?
Also why should one convert to another religion if s/he does not want to? I know govt keep a silence on this issue as they do not want to cause an uproar for not respecting people belief etc ...
What is your problem with others who have different views? i.e. they don't want to integrate (both sides) ...
FFS! Here go Israel again ... Why on earth do you think Israel is the evil one on this earth? (I am preempting your predictable views on Israel by the way ... )
You lost me there ... really ... 🙄
*I don't really feel happy writing that.... but it seems to me to be more the case than not, so I'll just leave it with this caveat: It's clumsy. Sorry.
No need to apologise coz you are merely expressing your views as yourself in the way you know yourself.
p/s: Now that Syria is "empty" does that mean there will be free land to many in the surrounding region? 😀 I mean can the Palestinians move to get some land or can Israel take some land for themselves ... ya, you like that don't you ... 😈
On the contrary I am not being insensitive but rather surprised by the utopia view that there would not be enough people to contribute to your retirement ...
By the way when you retire you are obsolete and your views are old so why do you bother since you make the assumption the older views are just minority views ... when you retire you are exactly that. Obsolete.
2 points Firstly how does having a working age population which is too small to pay for your pensions constitute a utopian view.
Secondly who assumes that older people are a minority,and that they're "obsolete“ They often have a strong influence on UK politics as they are most likely to vote
I'm going to think a little longer how to respond to the rest of that, but for the record my view of Israel is that having had a lot of apalling treatment, repressed and victimised and then been 'created' a land, a large number of Isrealis are nationistic, hardline and intolerant. Especially those who are in charge within the present government.
I love everyone equally, and I am not remotely intolerant of any peoples, but this is my observation: it's what happens when you treat people like shit, they begin to bite back.
Damn shame.
They are not evil, of course not, they're just deeply wary and have many many bad experiences.
Therefore we must evolve as a species... Kindness is the solution.
Damn - I hope that's clear.
gordimhor - Member
2 points Firstly how does having a working age population which is too small to pay for your pensions constitute a utopian view.On the contrary I am not being insensitive but rather surprised by the utopia view that there would not be enough people to contribute to your retirement ...
There are simply not enough jobs to go around and you are talking about small population?
By the way when you retire you are obsolete and your views are old so why do you bother since you make the assumption the older views are just minority views ... when you retire you are exactly that. Obsolete.
Secondly who assumes that older people are a minority,and that they're "obsolete“ They often have a strong influence on UK politics as they are most likely to vote
A quick summary of the so called "old and obsolete views" from previous post (two above or something) where the assumption is their old fashion dated views on immigrant etc ... I say there is nothing wrong with their views but someone says they are wrong. Ok, now continue ...
Are you saying that old people have voted wrongly because they have decided to vote for party that they see fit? Thus influencing the UK politics against immigrants? 😯
By your assumption old people are the majority voters hence they naturally gravitate towards voting against immigrants because they are most likely to vote and you feel that they are unjust ...? 😯
gofasterstripes - MemberI'm going to think a little longer how to respond to the rest of that, but for the record my view of Israel is that having had a lot of apalling treatment, repressed and victimised and then been 'created' a land, a large number of Isrealis are nationistic, hardline and intolerant. Especially those who are in charge within the present government.
FFS! Leave that region alone and let them sort themselves out. 🙄
FFS! Leave that region alone and let them sort themselves out.
You keep making assumptions. I didn't say anything about intervening.
Anyway - I've said enough, especially as it's off topic.
I don't think there are many who would try and copy an Isreali model in terms of creating a new country, not me for sure. Not least as the migrants themselves are from many different countries and cultures,
chewkw "There are simply not enough jobs to go around and you are talking about small population?"
No I asked how you believe having a working age population too small to pay for your pension is a "utopia" your wording not mine.
"By the way when you retire you are obsolete" again I am quoting you from your earlier post Chewkw I disagree with your statement.
And then "Are you saying that old people have voted wrongly because they have decided to vote for party that they see fit?"
No I was saying
"Secondly who assumes that older people are a minority,and that they're "obsolete“ They often have a strong influence on UK politics as they are most likely to vote "
Then Chewkw you posted this
"By your assumption old people are the majority voters hence they naturally gravitate towards voting against immigrants because they are most likely to vote and you feel that they are unjust "
I made no assumption about old people. I said that they are not a minority as the UK has an ageing population they make up a large and growing sector of the population, this doesn't mean that they are the majority either. As surveys have indicated that older people have historically been more likely to vote than other age groups they have therefore been targeted by political parties at election time giving perhaps greater influence than you might expect on a per centage of the population basis. I don't see old people as one homogenous group and I made no assumption at all about how they vote. So this garbage is all your own work
" they naturally gravitate towards voting against immigrants "
Lets be clear that is your "assumption " Chewkw not mine! Nor did I make comment on whether or not "they" the old people were "unjust" so again all your own work Chewkw . Not what I said at all. So I notice that at the end of all your assumptions you couldn't answer my question.
With all the good will in the world we (Europe) could very well balls this up. Technically speaking, we already have with ridiculous intervention and inaction. Currently trying to light a match in a hurricane.
These refugees need immediate help and support, but there has to be a long term solution, somehow we have to create a vacuum that will allow these people to go home and salvage their lives.
My worry would be Europe being dragged into a ground campaign to fix Daesh, and subsequently move them onto less fronts. To do so would undoubtedly cause more civilian deaths and leave any military force facing the same reprisals it has before.
People, left, right and those sat on the fence need to be very clear that the only way to restore order is military action. That involves deaths, lots of deaths, and civilians will be the largest proportion. Are people actually ready for that again?
Because in some parts we caused it, in others we've ignored it, we now have a huge humanitarian issue that could very well turn into a security issue if it isn't managed correctly. The reason I say this is not because of what some EDL/BF loon is spouting, but because using my experience and knowledge from my job, it's what I'd do.
So, I will repeat, we could balls this up because there's a strong likelihood it will be done half arsed, and without a clear and coherent goal (Iraq/Afghanistan)and that saddens me to the core. 🙁
Bloody Saturday telly ... now back to STW coz many people are wrong ... 😈
gordimhor - Member
No I asked how you believe having a working age population too small to pay for your pension is a "utopia" your wording not mine.
The assumption is that to sustain pension you need more migrant workers if I read you correctly or if I read the previous thread correctly whatever, now my question is that why do you need more foreign workers to sustain pension when there is still unemployment in current population? Can't you get current population to fill the gaps? Utopia in the sense that things will work out fine if there is a sudden influx of immigrants to boost economy hence pension ... well there is something fishy there if I may say so.
You might have a pension but I only started mine two years ago not because I wanted one but for whatever reason I was told it was compulsory. But up until then I having been saving for the future so what is all this scare about not having enough pension to live on? Makes no sense to me ...
I made no assumption about old people. I said that they are not a minority as the UK has an ageing population they make up a large and growing sector of the population, this doesn't mean that they are the majority either. As surveys have indicated that older people have historically been more likely to vote than other age groups they have therefore been targeted by political parties at election time giving perhaps greater influence than you might expect on a per centage of the population basis. I don't see old people as one homogenous group and I made no assumption at all about how they vote. So this garbage is all your own work
The previous post started talking or seem to imply that older voters tends to hold firm to the out dated "ideology" or assumption about mass immigration negatively etc (the topic was about the current situation)... when you joined in I assumed you were heading in the similar direction, otherwise what is the point of associating old voters in this thread, (the general assumption is that they older voters tend to vote Tories) whether they are majority or minority or more likely to vote or targeted more by politicians, if they do not impact on voting pattern?
Also what planet are you on when you talked about politicians targeting older voters because they are more likely to vote? Are you saying there is a segment of the society not target by election campaign? Are you saying young people are not targeted by election campaign/politicians? By applying the phrase of younger generation ... OMG! (O me goat!) 😯
So what are you saying exactly? Who vote for what? Explain ... 🙄
Lets be clear that is your "assumption " Chewkw not mine! Nor did I make comment on whether or not "they" the old people were "unjust" so again all your own work Chewkw . Not what I said at all. So I notice that at the end of all your assumptions you couldn't answer my question.
You have the answers? 😯 In other words are you implying that you have all the answers? 😮
Let's try it another way by considering ALL my assumptions as illogical ... which naturally mean that you are the logical one with all correct answers so let's hear them ...
Over to you. 😆
moose - MemberWith all the good will in the world we (Europe) could very well balls this up. Technically speaking, we already have with ridiculous intervention and inaction. Currently trying to light a match in a hurricane.
It is what it is ... humanity never learns and only if each of us start to restraint ourselves in all forms (especially greed) there shall be hope, otherwise the cycle of doom continues. 🙂
My worry would be Europe being dragged into a ground campaign to fix Daesh, and subsequently move them onto less fronts. To do so would undoubtedly cause more civilian deaths and leave any military force facing the same reprisals it has before.
That's inevitable coz the answer is not if or but when and how much pain we will endure before a short period of peace ...
People, left, right and those sat on the fence need to be very clear that the only way to restore order is military action. That involves deaths, lots of deaths, and civilians will be the largest proportion. Are people actually ready for that again?
I am but others I am not so sure.
Because in some parts we caused it, in others we've ignored it, we now have a huge humanitarian issue that could very well turn into a security issue if it isn't managed correctly. The reason I say this is not because of what some EDL/BF loon is spouting, but because using my experience and knowledge from my job, it's what I'd do.
Judging from our previous exchange you demonstrated your ability to reason without jumping into "my Daewoo K-20 is bigger than yours" mentality, or my god demand me to strike you down coz you don't believe in him.
So, I will repeat, we could balls this up because there's a strong likelihood it will be done half arsed, and without a clear and coherent goal (Iraq/Afghanistan)and that saddens me to the core.
Ya, is happening already so it's about damage limitation now. The reason is simply the half arsed politicians do not know how to do the right thing, yet they are very good in creating the right image for themselves.
😮
So the strategy is to round them up and put-em in camps close to the Atlantic ports, sort of circle of karma, America loves it immigrants right? make sure the x-ray scanners are broke 😉 classic Euro shuffle tactic! (do we even export anything to the states cucumber sandwiches or something) we have an advantage as an island, oh some might want to stay though, oh and it's tougher to dump them back once here, well ok any port then, solved boooooom 8)