[Closed] Calais Migrant camp- a conversation

So, you see? It's the same ole names, posting up the same old shyte.
It's like you get to know how these threads will run, as does everyone else.
Which kind of makes one wonder why any of this lot still bother.

Unreal.

I don't have to do anything. Our caring compassionate government has helped literally tens of them over the last few yeas, on my behalf,. And I for one think we should probably leave it at that, for fear of encouraging more of them

There was a giving thread set up for Nepal. Perhaps someone can find a relevant one for the migrants.

Just as an aside, Mrs Binners works in the charity sector. There are a lot of asylum seekers get dumped up our neck of the woods (there are more in Rochdale than in the entire South East of England, including London) . Property is cheap, and the middle classes won't have to confront the reality of the world, or brown people, as that would be simply frightful.

As they can't legally work while their claims are processed, and they are mainly educated professionals, they get bored. So most of them end up volunteering for local charities. To the point, after government cuts, that they've filled the gaps, and the charities can't manage without them.

So they don't seem to have a problem helping us, for their 36 quid a week. You think IDS would be featuring them in press releases, wouldn't you? Yet strangely, this doesn't make it into the press

Sorry if that doesn't fit into the comfortable 'Marauding Swarm of Scroungers' narrative

irc - just a couple of quick examples:

https://www.hrw.org/news/1999/02/23/oil-companies-complicit-nigerian-abuses
https://www.globalwitness.org/archive/british-banks-complicit-nigerian-corruption-court-documents-reveal/

Also, notorious lefty David Cameron: "As with so many of the problems of the world, we are responsible for their creation in the first place."

So, aside from commenting on here what has anyone done to alleviate the migrants suffering?

Nothing directly. Although I do try and provide a friendly environment and a decent education to some if they end up in my class. One was a 5yo girl who had seen her Dad get killed before her mother fled the country.

BTW Binners, this is in the middle class South East/East Anglia where we don't get "brown people". Even though I've had classes with all but 2 classed as white British.1/2 are Eastern European and the rest are "brown". Friends who teach locally also have a similar class demographic. Most of our classes are recent economic migrants and have not sought asylum, although some will have.

you can donate by paypal to laubergedesmigrants@hotmail.fr

The issue I have with left-wing support for illegal immigrants/asylum seekers/economic migrants is discriminating between genuine, saintly concern (and I think saints in this life are very rare) and hatred towards the Tories.

I think the test is in the pudding, i.e. giving up a room in your house. I don't have much time for arguments along the lines of "I work in the social services" because ultimately that is your occupation, if you do it for free, then you are the better person.

illegal immigrants/asylum seekers/economic migrants

Three very different groups of people with different needs and rights and we have different responsibilities towards all three whatever wing we might wish (oddly) to represent.

Three very different groups of people with different needs and rights and we have different responsibilities towards all three whatever wing we might wish (oddly) to represent.

Yes, quite right (half this thread is on discriminating between the three, that's why I put them all down).

The issue I have with left-wing support for illegal immigrants/asylum seekers/economic migrants is discriminating between genuine, saintly concern (and I think saints in this life are very rare) and hatred towards the Tories.

I dont think it's a party politics issue, just one of human compassion.

I dont think it's a party politics issue, just one of human compassion.

I disagree, "Compassion" is a subjective term. People will appear compassionate to get their own way, and labeling other people (i.e. right wingers) as uncompassionate is a political strategy. That was the point of my post.

I think the test is in the pudding, i.e. giving up a room in your house.

Brilliant !

My hatred of the Tories has little bearing on my compassion for the suffering of these refugees , nor does it help me offer any sort of a solution to the issues

DrJ - Member

The issue I have with left-wing support for illegal immigrants/asylum seekers/economic migrants is discriminating between genuine, saintly concern (and I think saints in this life are very rare) and hatred towards the Tories.

I dont think it's a party politics issue, just one of human compassion.

You cannot force people to show compassion for another human being as people do not think alike.

If you force people to show compassion then you are imposing your views on them and you are no better/difference than ISIS/Taliban etc.

In a democracy the majority rules and if the majority of people vote against your arguments/thinking or to show compassion to others then you have to accept that.

I do not accept compassion is forced upon just because people force you to accept them due to their hardships etc.

Bear in mind their hardships are not caused by me (you may have caused the hardship perhaps because you want to intervene by calling to topple their dictators?) directly or indirectly coz I did not vote to topple the dictators who did not invade other nation(s).
[b]
The irony is that those who called for freedom to topple those dictators are the ones that may have indirectly create the current mass hardship for the population. [/b]

Bear in mind, dictators may be causing pains/hardships to certain people within the population but certainly not at the current scale we are witnessing. i.e. mass exodus.

Therefore, [b]your view on compassion is blurred with guilt[/b] ... guilt like those that once called to have more freedom, to topple or to engage/intervene in others (nations) affairs. Yes, the chickens have come home to roost.

Compassion is better off by being honest to oneself and NOT just a pretend or forced upon (majority rule). It will be better for the immigrants as well as the host nation in the long run.

Nope, there is no certainty that time will heal/change a person's views.

Like I said previously you are biased, unfair and most of all skewed in your views of the meaning of compassion.

How about those who do not have the ability to be trafficked to your doorstep to be shown compassion? Are they not worthy of being shown compassion or because you do not see them?

As in my trademark saying we are all ZMs!

Nope, I am not heartless and yes I will still help you (general referring to people) if you are dying in front of me.

😯

Do you even understand what you are saying half the time?

EDIT: Should explain that's not some cheap shot; this whole situation is awful, and in my [i]vaguely [/i]informed opinion, is fuelled by 'The West', but I seriously have no idea what the point is that you're trying to make.

bearnecessities - Member
Do you even understand what you are saying half the time?

Yes, I do.

I can explain again if you do not understand my simple "English".

I don't mind.

😮

[b]p/s: Present your views if you dispute mine coz you have not contributed anything to this thread/topic. Would be good to see your views and yes I accept alternative views. Yes?[/b]

bearnecessities - Member

Do you even understand what you are saying half the time?

EDIT: Should explain that's not some cheap shot; this whole situation is awful, and in my vaguely informed opinion, is fuelled by 'The West', but I seriously have no idea what the point is that you're trying to make.

My points are simple:

1. You cannot force others to be compassionate to (help) others.
2. You cannot say that all hardships are created by the West unless of course you are assuming they are all brain dead.
3. There are rules to comply i.e. queue up and be processed. Not to swap the system.
4. Guilt and compassion are two different issues. The former is to right the wrong while the latter is just natural and fair. In this case, I fear the former.

if you do not understand my simple "English".

😕

@oldnpastit, yup! Old Bill Hague thought aiding in the arming of those trying to topple Assad would be a good idea. Even though there are many examples of this in history where it has come back to bite. He also ignored the advice of the very people employed to advise on such matters.

Low and behold their true colours have shown, cue wholesale slaughter of civilians. And atrocities that really would make your eyes water. Facepalm Hague. Faceplam.

moose - Member

@oldnpastit, yup! Old Bill Hague thought aiding in the arming of those trying to topple Assad would be a good idea.

Actually, the whole affairs started with Libya as Iraq was more or less contained.

So, you see? It's the same ole names, posting up the same old shyte.
It's like you get to know how these threads will run, as does everyone else.
Which kind of makes one wonder why any of this lot still bother.

Unreal.

Correct. Take a look at the reams and reams of scrawl on this, and any other political thread these days. Qui bono? I mean, really? No one will ever change their opinion, so is it just a case of people arguing for the sake of arguing? Showing how awesome they are at doing that?

Yeah, very true. I guess the politicians care little for history. The military studies the lessons, but their policies cause the same mistakes to be made and the same outcomes to occur. I'm pretty sure a bunch of high school kids could do a better job.

Oh and to add, Iraq was never contained. Trust me on that. It was a ****ing mess from the minute we rolled through the berm, to the minute we closed down in '09.

You cannot force people to show compassion for another human being as people do not think alike.
If you force people to show compassion then you are imposing your views on them and you are no better/difference than ISIS/Taliban etc.

What on Earth are you blabbering about "forcing" people too show compassion? Nobody suggested that was desirable or possible.

Look at the bleeding heart lefty handwringers on here spouting ****ing bullshit, these people are the enemy and will change your country forever. Our country will be a third world crap hole within a few years, and when they have bled us dry the whole cycle will repeat itself with the scum moving on to another continent like a plague of locust.

Superstar1 don't forget 😉 or people might think you're actually serious

So, aside from commenting on here what has anyone done to alleviate the migrants suffering?

moose - Member

@oldnpastit, yup! Old Bill Hague thought aiding in the arming of those trying to topple Assad would be a good idea. Even though there are many examples of this in history where it has come back to bite. He also ignored the advice of the very people employed to advise on such matters.

But weirdly everyone forgot about this during the election.

But weirdly everyone forgot about this during the election.

Yup, but then the other option was Labour (Iraq), so I guess the electorate didn't have many other options?

, but then the other option was Labour (Iraq), so I guess the electorate didn't have many other options?

The Iraq war vote was also opposed by 30% of labour MP's, it only passed because 90% of torries voted for invasion

That's not the narrative we are continually fed though

Tangent though really,

On the train ride home I had read the story of the young boys drowned off Turkey, the pictures are harrowing

Upset me a lot as I went to pick up my 2 and 4 year old kids from nursery
When we got in caught a news story ashowing the migrants stuck at Budapest train station
My youngest asked what they were doing I explained they had no where to live
My eldest asked where they could watch TV?!
I explained they didn't even have a bed
He said when he grows up he wants to be a builder anyway so he could build them houses.

As a confirmed bleeding heart hand wringing lefty nearly had me welling up!

Indeed. War is a profitable business. It would be nice for once to actually go and help people.

The Iraq war vote was also opposed by 30% of labour MP's, it only passed because 90% of torries voted for invasion

That's not the narrative we are continually fed though

The vote would have been lost even with 90% of Tories voting for it if the Labour Party had opposed it.

That's the narrative you need to remember imo, instead of blaming the Tories.

EDIT : In fact the vote would have still been won even if 30% of Tory MPs had, like Labour, opposed it.

Look at the bleeding heart lefty handwringers on here spouting **** bullshit, these people are the enemy and will change your country forever.

The "Enemy" earlier
[img] [/img]

Attitudes like yours are a disgrace to simple decency

Couldnt bring myself to post that picture

When dead babies are washing up on European shores it becomes harder to ignore the plight of so many displaced people

I suppose he was part of what Cameron would describe as a 'swarm'

Couldnt bring myself to post that picture

I know its absolutely dreadful, it moved me to tears, but this is the reality of the situation.

I can only imagine images of suffocated bodies piled on top of each other are even more distressing.

If pictures like this finally get people to take action then it's worth the shock they cause.

Yup, handwringing liberal that has spent a fair amount of time in Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan.

I've got a spare room - quite happy to give it up too. Anyone know how to go about arranging it? Genuine question.

badnewz - just seems like you can't handle the fact that some people actually do have more compassion than you and are looking for ways to justify your own lack of it.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105991

Our caring compassionate government has helped literally tens of them over the last few yeas, on my behalf,. And I for one think we should probably leave it at that, for fear of encouraging more of them

It is probably a couple more than that as we have given £800 million to help Lebanon,Turkey and Jordan with the million plus refugees each of them are accommodating. I am pretty sure that we will take more, however even if we take 50,000 it doesn't begin to address the problem. 11 million people have been displaced by the fighting in Syria, half the population.-

I am pretty sure that we will take more, however even if we take 50,000 it doesn't begin to address the problem.

"Begin" to address the problem is exactly what it does. Its 50,000 people who have safety and the chance to lead a dignified existence free from war and persecution.

Saying taking in more refugees doesn't solve the problem is a bit like saying after you've torpedoed a ship, that picking the drowning people out of the sea won't stop the ship from sinking. Yes it's technically correct, but its the just bullshit rhetoric designed to excuse inaction.

Giving £800 million is hardly inaction, the point is the problem is far greater than just the refugees trying to get into Europe - and are those than make it here the most in long term need of asylum? 10% of the Syrian population is Chrisitian, what will be in Syria for them when something resembling a state emerges?

It's not enough to just take in people. They still need to get here and that's the dangerous part. They are dying en mass trying to get into the EU, we should be offering them safety and a secure route before they fall victim to the traffickers.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/5-practical-ways-you-can-help-refugees-trying-to-find-safety-in-europe-10482902.html

It's not enough to just take in people. They still need to get here and that's the dangerous part. They are dying en mass trying to get into the EU, we should be offering them safety and a secure route before they fall victim to the traffickers.

I agree completely - there needs to be a legal way to obtain asylum - preferably via UNHCR refugee camps in neighbouring countries, that prioritise asylum on established and fair criteria

Trouble is, that to make that work you [b]have[/b] to close off ways of jumping the queue - so anyone arriving on European soil via any alternative route has to be returned to the refugee camp and put through the same process as everyone else - that would also make the trafficking ineffective, as there would be no reward by taking the risk

Sound fair?

Ps, the dead child, tragedy though it is, appears to have died setting off in a boat from Turkey.

they may have been fleeing Syria, but were they also not safe in Turkey?

Good link kimbers. Heard Cameron saying that we need to resolve the problem in Syria itself. People need solutions NOW. God knows how many years it will be before Syria and Iraq are stable. That picture is heart breaking.

Ps, the dead child, tragedy though it is, appears to have died setting off in a boat from Turkey.

they may have been fleeing Syria, but were they also not safe in Turkey?

A new low for you ninfan. I don't know if they were safe in Turkey - estimates range from 1-2 million refugees from Syria in Turkey so I imagine conditions might be pretty grim in some of the camps there.

Also:

Turkey has accorded temporary protection to Syrians on their territory, which precludes forced repatriation, however legally they are not refugees in Turkey but ‘guests’. Turkey is a signatory to the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees, however because of a geographic exception written into the original document it is only obligated to accept refugees from European nations. Thus, Syrians in Turkey do not have access to all the legal safeguards accorded to refugees elsewhere, and those seeking permanent resettlement must look to a third nation. Turkey long-maintained an open border for fleeing Syrians, although that policy has changed somewhat as the crisis has grown. For this reason, a substantial number of people are now camped on the Syrian side of the border, waiting for an opportunity to cross.

Something a bit more positive - hopefully something similar will be set up in the UK soon:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/01/berlin-group-behind-airbnb-for-refugees-overwhelmed-by-offers-of-help?CMP=fb_gu