[Closed] Calais Migrant camp- a conversation

The fact of the matter is that nobody can prove or disprove much when ALL the stats, collected by both sides of the arguament are pretty much guesswork

With the greatest respect, I think you're struggling a bit here Binners. Are you saying that the Census is "pretty much guesswork"?

Because "politically independent" does not embody a paradox, compressed or otherwise. It's like saying "absolute zero" is a paradox - it may be unattainable, but it's not a paradox. It is oxy with no moron.

Having looked into it a bit further, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt on this one DrJ.
I would consider "politically independent" to be a contradiction in terms and hence a paradox/oxymoron. But it is not a classic oxymoron in the sense it uses two opposing concepts, e.g. dark light.
I stand corrected!
(Stands up from chair)

This story is just ripe for BS headlines.

Asylum seekers are neither a problem nor even a big issue. They are refugees suffering an appalling plight. Nationality - Africa/not Africa doesn't matter - and other issues are largely irrelevant. We should be helping them in their plight.

Migration itself is full in nonsense claims and xenophobia eg let's stop Polish workers etc. And asylum seekers is even worse - they represent about 8% of total migration ie a small number. They should be treated with respect and helped in their time in need.

Yes it's overwhelming sitting in Calais watching people trying to find a route to the UK in desperation. But that should not deflect us from the reality of the situation - there is no asylum crisis. But there are people suffering from crisis. Good that we are helping them - we should be doing more.

Indeed THM. This is the biggest movement of people since the second world war. And there are some bloody good reasons for that. So the attitudes of countries like ours absolutely has to change to acknowledge and address the shear scale of this issue.

Like the Germans have, who's openness and humanity shames us all

If we refuse to engage with the issue as a serious player, and take on the xenophobes and small-minded bigots presently framing the narrative in this country, to reassert ourselves as being possessed of at least a modicum of compassion and humanity, then we are truly cutting ourselves off from the world, and properly retreating into a depressingly insular UKIP inspired Little Englander mentality. And the rest of the world, especially our EU partners will not forget that quickly.

Our separation from, and aloof uncaring hostility to such a huge human catastrophe will be how the rest of the world will judge us. And right now, thats not looking too clever. Right now we look like a right shower of selfish, inhumane ****s!

I think that is too harsh Binners. Our inflow figures have largely remained unchanged over the past few years. Yes, other EU countries have seen greater numbers (so our share has gone down but we are still the sixth biggest EU recipient) but that seems to be largely a result of geography more that actual policy. As I read somewhere, I doubt any migrant has knowledge of which countries have more or less stringent asylum policies. They are simply fleeing a terrible plight.

The migrants in Calais know they'll get twice the cash allowance in the uk, they'll get it a bit quicker, there's a good chance of a (black) job and they have a couple of months less to wait to be able to get an official job, their friends/relatives are doing well there and they speak English. (Source - TF1)

As one of millions of economic migrants who have left the UK over the years [url= http://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/nov/26/where-do-uk-expats-live ]British emigration[/url] I understand anyone who wants to improve their quality of life with a move. So I don't blame the migrants themselves. If there is blame I'll cite Mr Blair(and his mate Bush). And if there's an answer it's in helping the countries in the front line to keep people out and most importantly - making it safe for people to prosper in the places they are now fleeing.

In the greater scheme of things Calais is a minor detail. A visible few thousand when millions are on the move.

hat do they get in France then ?
In the Uk they get £36.95 for each person in your household.
Not sure how we can have any [reliable/meaningful]figures for illegal worker that are worth anything.
Agree that language is the main cause

[quote=Junkyard said]hat do they get in France then ?
In the Uk they get £36.95 for each person in your household.

Housing paid for too ?

https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get

Or is that only for refused cases ?

[url= http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F16118.xhtml ]11.45e per day[/url]

Yes housing is paid in the UK but he said cash in the hand hence I only mentioned that

I assume th French house them in some fashion as well.

To be clear I dont disagree with the thrust of his piece I just queried those figures/ wanted a source other than [ what i assume] is a tv channel.

EDIT:

Cheers and given the full allowances I assume they will end up being broadly similar - i assume Frnech give money but no Housing Benefit
If not theirs is way more generous than other

Maximum monthly resources
Number of people

FIGURES ARE SINGLE AND COUPLE
NUMBERS ARE I ASSUME KIDS

0

€ 524.16

€ 786.24

1

€ 897.44

€ 943.49

2

€ 1,121

1 € 100.74

3

€ 1,346

1 € 310.40

4

€ 1,571

1 € 467.65

And if there's an answer it's in helping the countries in the front line to keep people out and most importantly - making it safe for people to prosper in the places they are now fleeing.

I agree. The question I'd ask is: how do we make them safer?

The unpleasant truth is those countries were safer places when they were run as police states by political autocrats.

TF1 TV also showed a new design of tent which is going to be used in a new[s]concentration [/s] camp not too far from Calais. A form of "house them".

The vast majority of migrants aren't from war zones, badnewz. They are from relatively stable countries the west trades with. Time to start negotiating etter conditions for minorities with ****stan (for example) rather than flying drones at their behest. Nigeria isn't safe for minorities despite being run as a police stzate by political [s]despots[/s] autocrats.

We have today the highest global numbers of refugees since the end of World War 2.

They haven't become refugees because they live in [i]"relatively stable countries"[/i], nor because they have suddenly discovered that they can get better wages/benefits/housing somewhere else, something which they previously were unaware of.

http://www.unhcr.org/558193896.html

[img] [/img]

[i]"Globally, one in every 122 humans is now either a refugee, internally displaced, or seeking asylum. If this were the population of a country, it would be the world's 24th biggest."[/i]

The migrants in Calais know they'll get twice the cash allowance in the uk,

Is that what they are looking for? I thought someone said earlier they were looking for jobs.

Nice way to label them all as benefit scroungers. Good Dailymailing there.

Selective quoting, Molgrips. Everyone else will read all my post. Besides it's not Dailymailing, it's TF1ing, my first paragraph was lifted straight from TF1 hence my credit - source TF1.

You quoted it though.. hmm.

So TF1 does a report on the jungle and the reasons migrants congregate there and you go "hmm" in disapproval when I quote the reasons given by the migrants themselves to a TV journalist, Molgrips. Have a look at the thread title and the OP's request for conversations.

Do you want to be informed of the reasons the migrants favour the UK or would you rather hear politically correct lies?

Edit:

If you read Hurtmore's post above mine you'll have seen:

I doubt any migrant has knowledge of which countries have more or less stringent asylum policies

On the basis of the migrants interviewed by TF1 the migrants are intelligent, well-informed, know the advantages and disadvantages of countries and want the best for themselves. On the bright side this suggests they'll be equally determined to prosper once in the UK and work hard to achieve their ambitions.

Well you said TF1 said it now you are saying migrants said it
Your own figures show they have more cash in France
Now you are ranting about PC lies when you have changed from TF1 said to seekers said.

Same old same old you start off rational you go to frothing indignation [ ranting about PC ]so so quickly.

What next racism in Leicester in the 70's?

gofasterstripes - Member

I just said I could do a better job than most and that I am here to compete for a job.

Well, good for you.

Yes, as ZM I am better than the ZMs here.

I just said I could do a better job than most and that I am here to compete for a job.

Hang on a minute!

Deja Vu? Cut the long story short ... I kick the ZM arse! (Merican accent)

Yes, I did but Not via backdoor nor illegal means. I did not beg nor used force entry or even in fear of my life.

And in the modified version of that.... what's the big deal?

If they are not qualified then go fight the war ...

Do you want to be informed of the reasons the migrants favour the UK or would you rather hear politically correct lies?

TBF you claimed that [i]"migrants in Calais know get twice the cash allowance in the UK"[/i], and yet your figure of 60 quid a week in France seems to be a lot more than Junkyard's 37 quid in the UK.

Someone's telling porkies but I'm not sure who.

Now you are ranting about PC lies when you have changed from TF! said to seekers said.

Same old same old you start off rational you go to frothing indignation [ ranting about PC ]so so quickly.

What next racism in Leicester in the 70's?

Thread reported. First time ever.

Thread reported. First time ever.

You reported the whole thread because people had the nerve to challenge your rather dubious claims ?

ernie_lynch - Member

Edukator - Troll

Thread reported. First time ever.

You reported the whole thread because people had the nerve to challenge your rather dubious claims ?

😆 Bloody hell I shall wait for you outside the school gate ... (like school waiting for a fight but in this case hang bags ...)

It's the way they challenged, Ernie. I only reported Junkyard and Molgrips. I would have been happy to debate my dubious claims with you as you generally stay on subject and debate rather than launch into character assassination.

Tangent alert!

Un, didn't the UN (not just America) go to Korea to stop an invasion?

No

Yes, according to wiki:

Korea was ruled by Japan from 1910 until the closing days of World War II. In August 1945, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and—by agreement with the United States—occupied Korea north of the 38th parallel. U.S. forces subsequently occupied the south and Japan surrendered. By 1948, two separate governments had been set up. Both governments claimed to be the legitimate government of Korea, and neither side accepted the border as permanent. The conflict escalated into open warfare when North Korean forces—supported by the Soviet Union and China—invaded South Korea on 25 June 1950.[34] On that day, the United Nations Security Council recognized this North Korean act as invasion and called for an immediate ceasefire.[35] On 27 June, the Security Council adopted S/RES/83: Complaint of aggression upon the Republic of Korea and decided the formation and dispatch of the UN Forces in Korea. Twenty-one countries of the United Nations eventually contributed to the defense of South Korea, with the United States providing 88% of the UN's military personnel.

jamj1974 - Member

airtragic - Member
Jam may be talking bolleaux, but there's no need to reciprocate

Sometimes, just sometimes I think idiocy should be a crime.
Posted 4 hours ago # Report-Post

I sometimes think sanctimony should. 😉

I'd like to report this thread too, mainly because it's crap.
(Exit BadNewz, pursued by an asylum seeking bear.)

The vast majority of migrants aren't from war zones, badnewz.

What's your evidence for this?

Another way in which the west is responsible?

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/syria-climate-years-living-dangerously-symbolia

That right, democratic process was a huge part of our invasion of other countries and subjugation of their people and often suppression of their culture. How can you support property rights of land stolen from it's owners? We took property, resources and labour from a huge part of the world and then used a capitalist model and sense of religious and cultural superiority to sell goods back to them. Don't be more dense than you can help

Property rights - nothing too do with stealing land.

http://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/property-rights-key-economic-development

Funnily enough western countries that never had an empire have prospered as much as the UK. The UK hasn't had an empire for 60 years. Some former colonies have prospered while others haven't. Not our fault. The failed countries are the result of tribalism, corruption, bad govt, and religious sectarianism.

The UK hasn't had an empire for 60 years.

Trying to claim that because we haven't actually physically occupied other countries for 60 years (apart from the ones were we have) there is no legacy of colonialism frankly makes you look rather stupid.

The failed countries are the result of tribalism, corruption, bad govt, and religious sectarianism.

And you really don't think we've had a hand in any of those things?

[img] [/img]

Wow, I was genuinely interested to read people's opinions on this, but the thread reads like a competition of people trying to out clever each other.

My own uneducated opinion on this is that there needs to be a Europe wide approach to dealing with this growing problem. At the moment it seems to be a mish mash of open borders, building of fences, free buses and trains, people traffickers etc... countries are dealing with it in their own way. We're no different to anywhere else, we just have a great stretch of water to cross to get here which means we can delay any real decision on how to deal with the problem as it doesn't seem as immediate.

I understand that the people have suffered great difficulties in their own countries in many various forms. But we have to also recognise that once they have left that country they are now relatively safe - except for those who wish to risk that further by crossing Europe/a sea at the hands of people traffickers.

A co-ordinated approach means that these people need to be recognised and dealt with at point of entry. They clearly have reasons for wanting to go to a certain part of Europe, find out where. Within reason provide safe passage to that country, because the politicians will have agreed/negotiated how many each country will accept and help - an amount that is fair and reasonable for all EU countries involved.

Currently it isn't fair that Greece and Italy have to bare the brunt. It isn't fair that Germany have to take the burden of 800,000 people. It isn't fair that Macedonia can just stick on trains and buses to shift the problem on to another country. But it also isn't fair to those involved that people are dying in the back of trucks. It isn't fair that we're (Britain) not really pulling our weight and helping to alleviate the problems elsewhere.

the thread reads like a competition of people trying to out [s]clever[/s] dumb each other.

FTFY
Not a dig at you

[i] but the thread reads like a competition of people trying to out clever each other.[/i]

Oh, if you're new here, then you'll find that all these threads go like that.

You may also notice that these threads don't really achieve anything. All parties remain bitterly entrenched in their opposition to the other side and on it goes.
Minds are not open, biases are adhered to at all costs.

Enjoy!

the thread reads like a competition of people trying to out clever each other.

That's an unnecessary dig at jambalaya just because he said :

jambalaya - Member

100% right AGAIN chaps.

No one actually believes him.

Trying to claim that because we haven't actually physically occupied other countries for 60 years (apart from the ones were we have) there is no legacy of colonialism frankly makes you look rather stupid.

Colonialism? Legacy? After half a century? You're sounding like a stupid lefty still blaming Thatcher for everything 25 yrs later.

Post WW2 some places like South Korea, like Singapore have started with nothing and prospered. Others, even when like Nigeria they have oil wealth, have not. Not our problem. Their problem.

You're sounding like a stupid lefty....

You tell him irc.......the stupid lefty.

Unlike clever conservatives who know that there is no such thing as neo-colonialism or any underhand geopolitical shenanigans by western governments and their agencies such as the CIA.

"Vital US interests" isn't even considered.

I notice the BBC news is leading on the terrible inconvenience caused to English holidaymakers with delays to their Eurotunnel trains home due to the tide of human misery desperately searching for a better life.

Cue interviews of irony free moaning and whining by clueless pampered brits

Yay for us! We're are truly Great Britain, aren't we?

So, aside from commenting on here what has anyone done to alleviate the migrants suffering?

I've got three of them living in my shed

Shed? You heartless imperialist.

So, aside from commenting on here what has anyone done to alleviate the migrants suffering?

A very good point.

Since I can't personally do anything to help these desperate people :

[img] [/img]

if their boat capsizes and their bodies are washed up on a beach I'm not really in a position to express an opinion.

Likewise I can't personally do anything about children dying of suffocation in lorries, so who am I to condemn this appalling state of affairs?

But perhaps I should be out there checking lorries for dying children?

others, like Nigeria, have not

To quote well known "stupid lefties" the CIA:
"Africa's most populous country (population estimated at 48 million) is in the throes of a highly complex internal crisis rooted in its artificial origin as a British dependency containing over 250 diverse and often antagonistic tribal groups. "

Unfortunately British influence does not end the day independence is signed, and its effects are felt afterwards.

[img] [/img]