[Closed] Bye Bye Jonny

You must have missed his early career. Defensive genius. One of the best tacklers I've ever seen.
Where's he going anyway?

He divides opinion for sure. I am a massive fan, the word "average" will never be used when we look back at his achievements.
Put himself on the line to for his team, an utter professional, great role model and jolly nice bloke.
A lot of young players could learn a lot from jonny, and not just english ones.
I wish him all the best for the future.

Yeah, that too wrecker.

Has retired from international rugby.

Defensive genius? Oh yes he spent time doing his flankers job and injuring himself in the process 🙄

Not sure he could be described as ordinary, a fantastic record over a decent length of time and recovering from several serious injuries should make him ranked as a great player surely?

International? Ah, about time really.
Yeah I guess it wasn't really [i]genius[/i] to tackle harder than your body can take!

Jonny who?

Hugely over rated player IMO

The hugely biased standpoint from which you are posting makes the ridiculousness of that forgiveable.

DD 😆 wait till BOD calls it a day 😉

Never ordinary for sure but never the genius that some England fans lauded him as. Great in defense, great kicker, no more than good enough as an international player at getting this backs going.

A model professional tho. Kept out of the headlines, didn't criticise his coaches or fellow professionals, trained hard and made the most of is talents - Cipriani are you listening?

His drop goal in the WC final cements his place in history

Not sure how i feel really - on the one hand, gutted. He was a defensive genius - redefined fly-half in defensive terms. And for the record his injuries only really began after that shocking late tackle in the 63-3 drubbing of S.A. His open play wasn't awesome compared to others, say Hodgson, Lamb, but his kicking skills were amazing and he'll forever be remembered for THAT drop goal.

On the other hand - he was poor at the world cup (as was virtually all the England team, i know) and his influence was on the wane. This opens the door for new(er) talent - Flood, Farrell, (maybe even Lamb if he learns to tackle)

He'll be missed by England and I can't think of a single team that enjoyed facing him. In the last few years, his talent in an England shirt began to wane, but I can't think of another flyhalf except for Carter who comes close in his total abilities. A good 10 years watching the man play.

I think that is a good way of thinking about how good he was by how much he influenced games he played. Englands win percentage is high with him in the team. He did most things very well and a lot of thing outstandingly. he wasn't really bad in any area (except maybe interviews and I can't think that he would have been very good in the boat race team) so I think that he should go down as a great.

but in hindsight people will see he was a bit ordinary

OP I think you'll always have him beaten in that department. 🙂

OP I think you'll always have him beaten in that department.

Oh how I 😆 ed

DD wait till BOD calls it a day

Can't be too far away now can it? And there'll be the usual revisionary detracting boreshitters to be all post-modern and say how ordinary he was and that Sheep****ers Ex-Miner Boyos Thirds' centre would have walked into his position.

And TeeJ...have a word with yerself will ya?

Never ordinary for sure but never the genius that some England fans lauded him as.

To be fair..."genius" isn't a word I ever associate with rugby that much. BO'D was once asked who the best player he'd played against (possibly in the 6N - and it was a few years back when Johnny was at his best) - guess who he said.

BO'D was once asked who the best player he'd played against (possibly in the 6N - and it was a few years back when Johnny was at his best) - guess who he said.

Pigface?

BO'D was once asked who the best player he'd played against

Tana Umaga ?

Not the greatest surprise - he'd have been struggling even to find a place on the bench by the next WC.

As for how good he was, well at his best in 2003 he was the best in the world. Clearly he never had the all-round game which players like Carter do, but very, very good at what he did. We'd not have won the WC without him.

avdave 😆 good answer but remind me who are you 😉

DD bit touchy tonight are we 😕 actually I think BOD is a genius but it would of been cruel to bring Ronan O Punchbag/O Headless Chicken into this 😛

Not me i Dave purely armchair bullshitter these days 8)

BO'D was once asked who the best player he'd played against

Tana Umaga ?

really, really, really wrong. But i can't stop chuckling.

deadly - genius can definitely be used with rugby, but it means different things for different positions IMO- as a flanker McCaw is a genius, but in a very different way to say, Barry John.

Lol @ the answers to "guess who he said" 😆

I'm not touchy piggie. If you're going to go and spout bollocks, don't be calling me touchy when I point it out to you. 😉

Touchy touchy touchy 😆

😛

Long may the man retire in Hackett.

Truely focused, truely driven, truely mastered his abilities.

Enjoy retirement, you shall be missed.

Would like to see JW play with the Kiwi pack and that back line then compare to Carter, likewise see how Carter would play with the service provided by England. Really difficult to know how good each would be, Kiwi's at height of powers this world cup and won without Carter or any of their other choices for fly half, would England in their heyday have won without Wilkinson?

I know a lot of people do not like him or his style of play and at times it was not pretty but it fitted the system, his influence on the team was huge and in this day and age his dedication is to be applauded.

An inspirational player and model professional, sad not see him in the 6n but as others have said he would struggle to get selected.

DD - if you think at any point in his career he was the best at getting the back line moving you are deluded old chap. He never was but he suited the gameplan of the 2003 WC winners. He never had a fantastic running nor passing game - but didn't need to playing in the way that team did.

If you listen to English fans you would think he was the best that ever played. Well he wasn't.

I am not the only one to see this.

Can't deny he didn't play to his strengths though.

Absolutely so bikebouy. He made the most of his talents, a model professional and great at defence and kicking. Better than any scottish fly half of the era as well

The words that have stood out for me so far in this thread are:

"professional"

"percentage"

"system"

No wonder English rugby is so boring....

(He was a great player, without doubt. Just remember that he peaked aged 24 in the 2003 WC. It was always going to be downhill from there - and the look in his eyes at the time tells me he knew it)

If you listen to English fans you would think he was the best that ever played. Well he wasn't.

This one was pretty handy (my school coach, John Horton). But he wasn't as good as Wilkinson.

[img] [/img]

Better than any scottish fly half as well

How utterly depressingly predictable that this would be posted by some miserable sod knocking the man. That chip on your shoulder is enormous.

you are deluded

While deluded would be delighted with this, I think you'll find he's a sneaky bizzie in the South West. 🙂

The fly-half, 32, has called time on a career that spanned 14 years, 91 caps and an English record of 1,246 points.
Wilkinson's record for his country includes six tries, 162 conversions, 239 penalties and a record 36 drop-goals

The stats of a mediocre player just playing system rugby 🙄

Personally I prefer the opinion of people who've real experience of sport at a high level, rather than the keyboard scrummagers who "could have made it if they'd tried"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16146371.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16151943.stm

Also IRB Player of the Year in 2003 which I am sure TJ will tell us was because of everyone else around him.

Hilldodger - 6 tries.

It says it all that he is remembered for a drop goal.

Gareth Edwards - 20 tries in 53 matches

Gregor Townsend 17 tries in 82 appearances for example.

to be a great you have to be great at every aspect of the game. ( not that I am saying townsend is a great as he was badly flawed.

Sad that he's retired as he was a great player but obviously the time has come as it does for all professional players

Interested to see who's selected for 6N as Flood is definately not on form at the moment

6 tries.

How many assists? Last time I checked, actually scoring tries wasn't one of the principle jobs of a fly-half - not if you're playing in a team with decent support around you. Arguably scoring lots of tries from that position suggests either the rest of the team isn't working that well or you're playing mediocre opposition.

Keyboard Scrummager - Member
....to be a great you have to be great at every aspect of the game....

....whereas to snipe'n'gripe you only need an internet connection 😆

Bill McLaren picked Rob Andrew as his fly half for his World XV, why because he realised that different fly halves fulfil different roles. Wilkinson was a fly half in Andrew's mould and was better than Andrew in pretty much every aspect.

Dan Carter - 29 tries in 85 tests - of course he does play in a team without decent support around him that isn't working well 🙄

Wilkinson - a model professional, fantastic in defence, a great kicker - probably the first to really bring a professional attitude to kicking but without the running or passing game to make him a true great.

Laud him for what he is.

thank god for that!!

no more cheating dropkicks! 😉

TJ - would you argue other great number 10's were not, because their defence was the least of their attributes? I'd say Wilko at his height had a pretty good running and passing game, anyway. For a time he was the best 10 in the world and part of a world cup winning team, so there is little to argue against him apart from his recent couple of years.

or you're playing mediocre opposition.

Remind me who Dan's last try was against?

Point is a stand off is the sum of parts; Sum of JW'S game were better than any British or Irish 10 of the pro era.

wrecker - Member

Better than any scottish fly half as well

FTFY

Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post

John Rutherford was better than JW. But you like to display a lack of knowledge on rugby threads, so carry on.

Laud him for what he is.

What he is is the second highest international points scorer of all time, second only to Carter who is up there as the possibly the best ever. In a career racked with injury. He also got it done under the greatest pressure possible on a rugby field (extra time drop goal, last kick of the game, in Australia, with the wrong foot!). He also did it with the utmost class and professionalism, an example to any young player.
Personally I think that qualifies him to be considered great.

He has never been the most exciting fly half or the best runner, he's not the best ever in his position, but nobody ever claimed he was.

Interested to see who's selected for 6N as Flood is definately not on form at the moment

Still think he's first choice though Frankers. There's not exactly a wealth of choice.

Sum of JW'S game were better than any British or Irish 10 of the pro era.

This.

duckman - Member

Point is a stand off is the sum of parts; Sum of JW'S game were better than any British or Irish 10 of the pro era.

Hard to argue with.

he's not the best ever in his position, but nobody ever claimed he was.

Scamper - Member
TJ - would you argue.....

....endlessly 🙄

People are always claiming this

No, [i]you'd[/i] like to think they are, but most people don't claim he was the best ever.

Ah - but I am right. Again 🙂

Said by me:

he's not the best ever in his position, but nobody ever claimed he was.

by TJ:

People are always claiming this

Go on then, who?
Everyone I've ever spoken to about it acknowledges that he is not the best ever fly half, even the most one-eyed England fan can see that Dan Carter is a more complete and exciting player. Wilkinson is still a great of the game though.

Greenwood tells a cracking story about the final. The Aussies(Flatley) kicked a difficult goal to level and force extra time. Greenwood was 10m away and applauded the kick "Well done, some "bollards" mate." kind of thing. He then goes on to say how the Aussie players were screaming abuse at JW as he put England ahead in extra time. Kind of contrasts for me everything about that England side with their team now. They were winners in every single way; They were hard enough to skate on,and demanded/forced respect, yet gave respect back to oppos. I like that.

Sum of JW'S game were better than any British or Irish 10 of the pro era.

...at his best. Would there have been so much talking him down if we'd been discussing him 8 years ago? The trouble is, as close as he's got a few times, he never quite managed to reach that peak again.

Ah - but I am right. Again

Sorry TJ - you can't use that one, you don't live in Tower Hamlets.

TJ is [s]People are[/s] always claiming [s]this[/s] things which aren't true

FTFY - I'm assuming you can't actually quote anybody who claims JW was the best ever.

aracer - Member

As for how good he was, well at his best in 2003 he was the best in the world.

I seem to remember him being disappointing in the earlier games in the 2003RWC and his reputation being built on the last couple of games. In fact the more I think about it, England struggled against Wales until they brought Mike Catt off the bench. While JW kicked the points he couldn't 'create' enough to beat Wales.

Stuey01 - Member

Laud him for what he is.

What he is is the second highest international points scorer of all time, second only to Carter who is up there as the possibly the best ever.

And Neil Jenkins in third. Shows how silly it is rely on dodgy stats!

I seem to remember him being disappointing in the earlier games in the 2003RWC and his reputation being built on the last couple of games.

I wasn't just talking about the RWC - he went into that with quite a lot of hype given his previous form that year.

So he played well in the 6N that year. Fair enough.

Can we add to that? 😆

Can we add to that?

don simon - Member

Can we add to that?

He was supposed to be rugby's answer to David Beckham?

Posted 12 minutes ago # Report-Post

An image that the tabloids tried to foist on him.

not too shabby.

John Rutherford was better than JW. But you like to display a lack of knowledge on rugby threads, so carry on.

So he played well in the 6N that year. Fair enough.

Can we add to that?

Not too shabby in the summer tour down-under either.

[i]lack of [s]knowledge[/s] [b]opinions that agree with mine[/b] on rugby threads[/i]

FIFY

Go on, define "better". Show us your knowledge.

Nah, I will just carry on smiling at your posts.Page two and you haven't screamed racist yet,despite some people on here not rating him,well done.

Page two and you haven't screamed racist yet

What on earth are you talking about and why are you smiling? Strange man.

Sad to see him retire but I suppose he knows best. One of the england players I much admire and comes across as a genuine guy. Not an all time great as he is lauded but a very good international fly half. To be honest I dont rate him that much higher than Steven Jones, he's just played in better teams. I think Rhodri Morgan, former First Minister for Wales got it right (plus it allows me to mention my fav player 😆 ) "For sheer talent Henson has more in his little finger than Jonny Wilkinson has in his whole body. However, the problem is that for sheer application, Jonny Wilkinson has had more in his little finger than Gavin has had in his whole body.

To be honest I dont rate him that much higher than Steven Jones

Oh Jesus, I was waiting for this. Thanks, you've given me a laugh.

However, the problem is that for sheer application, Jonny Wilkinson has had more in his little finger than Gavin has had in his whole body.

We've been through all this before when talking about how Henson has wasted his life. "Greats" of the modern game (and I ain't coming down off my particular fence) have to have application and talent - large measures of either.

Talent is a myth, bit like Henson really!

DD why not he had the luxury of playing behind a juggernaut of a pack that for 5 years just rolled over everyone. Would of liked to see him living off scraps and being under pressure the whole time.

Jonny does seem to be a class act a massivley dedicated professional to the point of mental illness and a solid gold roll model to aspiring kids but he had limitations in his game.

He'll be remembered for one drop kick. The winning drop kick in a world cup is a good thing to be remembered for.

I hope he finds some other way of inspiring people. Luc Alphand went on the win the Dakar, Noah became a pop star, Maradona a TV star... .

DD why not he had the luxury of playing behind a juggernaut of a pack that for 5 years just rolled over everyone. Would of liked to see him living off scraps and being under pressure the whole time.

Dan Carter living off scraps and under pressure the whole time wouldn't look as great as he is either. I can't think of anyone who would. That's the thing about rugby...and it's why these debates rage on and on - a brilliant player can sometimes be lost in a poor side and never even shine. Or a really talented player in a decent enough side can end up on the scrapheap because he's an immature tosser - like Henson.

Talent is a myth? You'll have to explain that one to me.

Oops

it is a theory, no such thing as talent as it is learnt, the 10,000 hour rule etc

Loads of good books about it.

henson, good player he maybe, not sure he will ever reach greatness though.

guys, Wilkinson did work for aaaaages behind a mediocre pack - a big chunk of his career was spent at Newcastle. At that time their pack would have been rolled over by under 11's sides.

He still ran the game, still kicked his goals. But no, he didn't set up loads of awesome tries.

But good god, to compare Wilko with Henson is laughable. We're saying Wilkinson is limited because he is remembered for his kicking and that drop goal? Henson is remembered for 2 tackles (which would now be illegal - Warburton anyone?) and a couple of enormous kicks. Oh, and because he was a nob.

I still dont understand bear. Never mind.
I knew i shouldnt have mentioned henson, gets the idiotss all excited,oh well thats why i love him so.
Those that cannot see how talented he is are either stupid or know nothing about rugby.
Maybe thats it, talent is a myth, but only in the england midfield.
Oh and neither tackle on tait were illegal, ones on the tight head prop and the tindle alike both of whoms name i forget were illegal though.

I would love Henson to have been great, really would. But the fact is, he wasn't. Great talent, could well have turned out to be a great player, but he never delivered on his promise.