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i’ll pass on the insurance quote tip.
Why wouldn't you check this? If he is planning on passing within a few weeks, he'll want to know what his insurance is likely to it needs to cover him as a brand new and unsupervised driver. You are not taking out insurance as a licensed driver, just getting a quote before changing it back to provisional.
Great advice from Cougar there.
The other note of caution I would sound about an auto...
If he wants it to rev then it'll take piling on a lot of speed/throttle and it to "kick down" on an auto box before it does.
Depending on the box that downshift might not be well timed, smooth or predictable to an inexperienced driver. Enough to cause a "moment".
I'm not advocating wanting to drive around making noise/revving the nuts off something but on the basis it's a potential outcome it may as well be done in the least dangerous manner possible.
Now of course the OP's progeny might well be captain very/moderately sensible and this issue might be totally irrelevant but maybe not. The op will have a better idea on that.
i’ll pass on the insurance quote tip.
Why wouldn’t you check this?
had to read this a couple of times before i got the problem. i didnt mean i'll pass on it (as ignore it), i meant i'll pass it on to him 😀 thanks.
@cougar. i agree with everything youve said, he probably does too, but will he take that 'kin manual test? naaaaah.
as some of you have guessed correctly, hes not a petrolhead and i think he'll be a sensible driver, hes not one for showing off. he likes what he likes tho and welcomes advice. then does what he wants anyway 😀
and yes, hes got to the grand old age of 24 without needing one so far, but its now starting to limit opportunities for work (self employed decorator) and taking family out.
Just please… Don’t let him buy a bloody Astra!!!
why? if theyre a bit crap in the auto guise, its worth knowing this so he can have a stronger look at the hondas/nissans.
thanks all for the advice. i'll pass this thread onto him for his perusal.
cheers
I was SOO expecting that. I’m absolutely convinced that the more you, as an equipment operator, are invested in the direct operation of the machinery, the more you’ll be aware of the consequences of your actions.
Ok cool so you still have a manual choke?
You could easily argue that freeing up mental energy of thinking about what gear to be in and having to physically change allows you to concentrate more on steering/braking/road conditions etc, not less.
I used to think all the same ill-informed clichés about automatics, then I drove a couple of my gf's a bit and realised it was all nonsense.
As above...
This stuff about manuals making you more aware of what's around you is rubbish, one of the things I've noticed from driving EVs the last 5 years is how not having to worry about gears, revs, clutch frees up time to think about other road users, junctions, road conditions, etc.
Firstly it can allow some people’s minds to wander leading to accidents or more likely temptation to check their phone.
This sounds ridiculous to me. If you need to change gears in a manual then there's lots of other stuff going on anyway e.g. corners, junctions, lights etc. Lack of gear changing doesn't make you want to check your phone!
This sounds like a lot of manual drivers wanting to post-hoc justify their choice with weird mental gymnastics. Honestly, there's no need. It's not that complicated - autos change gear for you, that's all. They don't wipe your arse. If you're a bad distracted driver in an auto you're a bad distracted driver in a manual.
The thing about autos (auto anything in fact) is that it encourages lazy driving. Manual you have to think ahead and plan your gear changes – not just mash the throttle and hang on. And if you’re planning ahead for gear changes, hopefully it means you’re actually looking at, and assessing the road and the traffic somewhere further ahead than your front bumper.
(the opposite issue is becoming a problem for me – I’ve yet to drive an auto car that wouldn’t be improved by having a manual box, but the kind of car I’d prefer for my next one tend to only come in auto flavour)
Utter bo11ocks, and you've obviously only driven 5h1t cars.
I had my first auto in 1984, and while I've had some manual cars in the 80's/90's such as an Mi16 I've been pretty much auto only since 1993. I would though recommend trying to pass the test in a manual as it'll be useful.
Auto fine, Astra not. Get something like this little Yaris;
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202105042192428?maximum-mileage=25000&postcode=de159gu&sort=relevance&maximum-badge-engine-size=1.6&transmission=Automatic&price-from=2500&advertising-location=at_cars&include-delivery-option=on&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&radius=1500&price-to=3500&page=1
Auto will not make him a better or worse driver either way and there are plenty of auto cars to choose from (and that will only increase as electric car use grows).
See recent Honda Jazz thread, he'll likely find lots of reasons not to if he's a young bloke!
Put me firmly in the automatic camp, especially given *all* hybrids and EVs don't have a conventional clutch. They *are* easier to learn in, so it's just a balance: earlier to learn, easier to drive, but less choice of cars. I do find it funny how some people are so emotional about driving a manual, considering how much work the car is doing for you already. I don't see anyone saying that power steering is bad and for proper control you shouldn't have it.
Anyway, my wife was in a similar situation: we needed a car, so two weeks automatic intensive course later she had a license. Buying and hiring cars hasn't really been a problem in the last decade.
Remember he can always re-take the test to get the manual part later if he wants, I imagine learning the clutch is a lot easier when you're not also learning everything else about driving.
I don't think passing a test on just an auto will make the slightest difference other than a bit more on the cost of a new car. Manual gearboxes are slowly being faded out by most manufactures as the technology just becomes more and more redundant and will speed up further when we're all in electric cars anyway, making them irrelevant
The UK has has a weird superiority complex about driving manual transmission cars – be happy to see them gone – I reckon 10 years.
Will actually be 9 years as will only be able to buy electric from 2030 won't we?
I used to think all the same ill-informed clichés about automatics, then I drove a couple of my gf’s a bit and realised it was all nonsense.
On this,
I passed my test in 1990, several years before the OP was born. Time was, I thought the same, autos didn't give you the same 'experience' as a manual. And I was right, automatics were, what's the word now...? Oh, yeah. Shit.
But this now is long out-of-date knowledge. Modern auto boxes are (largely*) a world apart from their 20th Century ancestors. The first time I got hold a DSG motor I spent about a week habitually shifting gear in semi-auto because I didn't trust it, before realising "why am I doing this?" one day, shoving it into Auto and leaving it there for the next two years. When I got my current car (on lease) the sole reason I didn't get an auto is that the same car with the different box was an extra 50 quid per month. Over three years that's £1,800.
(* - I have to caveat this claim. Not all gearboxes are created equal. My partner has an automatic VW Up! and whilst being half-decent in all other respects, the gearbox is a hateful bag of arse. When you want it to change gear it takes about ten minutes, and when you don't want it to it sits there shifting for the LOLs. If you have cause to stand on the loud pedal (say in the highly unlikely situation that you want to overtake something, gods know what in an Up!, maybe a stray cow or something) then all the power immediately drops off and you're sat there coasting whilst it sits there seeking through the box for several seconds like a 1980s hard drive (Sorry son, ask your dad).
Essentially, it obviously couldn't predict road conditions and couldn't change fast enough to adapt to them. On realising this I mostly fixed the issue with the opposite of the above advice, removing the former requirement by going back to semi-auto and changing my own gears.)
Essentially, it obviously couldn’t predict road conditions and couldn’t change fast enough to adapt to them.
How could it? What auto does?
EDITED I see you are talking about the Up. Apparently it's not DSG, it's ASG, which is different - apparently a single clutch, so none of the niceness of a DSG.
But, yeah. Back when I passed my test autos were the domain of high-end luxury vehicles and, well, the diametrically opposite. "Normal" automatic cars were about as common as hen teeth. You'd have had to be either mad or disabled to take the auto test.
Today the landscape isn't like that. An auto box is a regular feature. I'm not sure as we've quite reached 50:50 yet but we're likely heading in that direction and beyond.
But.
The reason I'd recommend against this for The Boy is twofold.
1) At the budget you're proposing you're looking at something, what, pushing ten years old depending on condition? You're falling in the middle of the two scenarios I just painted. I've just searched on my own postcode for a £3,000 to £4,000 Astra and the results were 400 manuals and 60 autos. Adding that engine drops it to 15 cars. Here's an example:
https://www.motors.co.uk/car-59018476
2) An eight year old car with 125k on the clock, you're potentially heading into expensive bills territory in the next couple of years. The gearbox goes on that thing, it'll be a write-off. £220 VED. And he really needs to get on the Meerkat and price up insurance quotes, his age will work in his favour but a new driver with 165 horses under his right foot ("not a petrolhead"...), if I were to pull a figure out on my arse I'd say about £2k for the first year (and would love to know what it actually is).
But hey. It'd be an ace next car. (-:
How could it? What auto does?
Exactly, hence I said "obviously". A DSG is reactive enough that it doesn't need to predict anything. This thing needs a form signing in triplicate before it changes gear so in me doing the thinking for it it doesn't need to be fast.
I can see a hill coming and knock it down a cog. Left to its own devices it only knows there's a hill when it's suddenly struggling up one so then changes down, throws all its power out of the window for a few seconds whilst it finds the gear, sets off again but has lost so much momentum that it needs to change down again, now finally is in an appropriate gear so picks up speed only to need to change up and slow down meaning it needs to change down again and I'm about to have an aneurysm.
Oh, and you know the 'engaged box / forward creep' thing that every auto box has done since the dawn of time? Nope. Stationary without the handbrake on you're either rolling backwards, rolling forwards, or trying to catch it on the gas pedal where you're at the whim of the box suddenly engaging and propelling you away.
Hateful %^&*ing thing. My GF is a nervous driver at the best of times, the 'will drive for twice as long to avoid a motorway' type, I don't know how she copes with it.
If he's a self-employed decorator then soon enough he'll be needing a van (ladders, tools) and surely 90%+ of commercial vans will be manual?
Otherwise the OP has had a lot of advice already.
In general, yes a manual will make a more conscientious driver, more away of their revs and speed. and you can stop, handbrake and neutral like a real human instead of a dead-to-the-world goon, standing on the clutch and brake at traffic lights.
However driving an auto in a high-stress situation is a godsend. Trying to navigate Italian roads, looking out for signs and traffic lights*, while driving on the "wrong" side of the road, being intimidated by Italians in cars and on mopeds, trying to reverse a ridiculous SUV in Whistler.... I've had my snobbery over Auto's beaten out of me. you can be so much more aware of other traffic and other drivers and hazards when you've one less thing to think about.
That said, I'm glad of my Manual licence and the flexibility it provides. We've only ever owned Auto vehicles in NZ where they're much more popular as they're all 2nd hand imports form Japan.
* In the UK we are great at consistency. You know where the traffic lights will be and their view is normally unencumbered. It's easy to miss traffic lights when they're in the "wrong" place.
he hasnt had any experience i dont think. he just sees it as one less ‘complicated’ thing to think about so a better chance of passing if he’s got less to think about.
You could always disown him and it's one less complicated thing for you to think about. Also, it saves you face down the pub having to admit your own flesh and blood is incapable of driving a car.
“pass rate for manual cars is 47%, while only 39% pass with an automatic”
That is because doing an auto-only test is often the option taken by people after having failed a number of normal tests, because they are generally a piss poor driver, and they think that not having to change gear will make them better (hint - it doesnt). And then lo and behold they fail the auto test too, because they are failijng on obervation, hesitation, incoreect speed, not looking past the end of their bonnet, not understanding the highway code etc etc etc (not the simple act of changing gears.
I wouldnt in a million years want a manual transmission in my large heavy estate car to sit in traffic with.
But I also wouldnt ever, ever want to be without my manual gear box in my small light weight sports car!
Finally, if your son has literally ANY interest in cars at all, then with a 3 grand budget, if he only gets an Auto licence he is massively, massively limiting himself in choice of many great cars.
Remember auto makes more sense in the kind of car that tends to be the opposite of what a new driver needs too - larger, large engine, high torque, heavy.
You could always disown him and it’s one less complicated thing for you to think about. Also, it saves you face down the pub having to admit your own flesh and blood is incapable of driving a car.
Weren't you banned from driving for quite some time?
(-:
Here's a question.
Has he ever tried driving a manual? I can understand a reluctance, they look complicated and clutch control takes a while to master. It was daunting when I first started. But it's really not that difficult with a bit of practice.
And then lo and behold they fail the auto test too, because they are failijng on obervation, hesitation, incoreect speed, not looking past the end of their bonnet, not understanding the highway code etc etc etc (not the simple act of changing gears.
Not having to concentrate on changing gears leaves more time to concentrate on all those other things.
The gearbox goes on that thing, it’ll be a write-off.
No, it'll be expensive, but there's no need to write it off. I really dislike the idea that you can't spend more on a car than its market value. Firstly the market value is determined by the desirability, which is in part based on the risk that things might go wrong. Well if it gets a gearbox refurb, that's one less thing to go wrong for starters. Secondly the market value is unrelated to its material value as a functioning vehicle. Simply replacing it with another old car simply introduces more risk again.
molgrips
Full MemberNot having to concentrate on changing gears leaves more time to concentrate on all those other things.
It does. But if you can't drive to test standard overall then removing one piece of the puzzle probably isn't going to fix the problem, unless you had a specific issue with clutch control and gears which was dragging down an overall decent performance.
Or, put it a different way, if you need that extra bit of brain space for all the other stuff, it's because the other stuff is still taking up too much brain space- more practice is the real answer.
The gearbox goes on that thing, it’ll be a write-off.
No, it’ll be expensive, but there’s no need to write it off. I really dislike the idea that you can’t spend more on a car than its market value.
This is exactly what I had with my last car. Kind of. The cost of parts were very expensive but no dealer, including the main dealer, was willing to do the work. Even though I knew the cost and offered to pay. No one would touch it. One dealer, who makes the parts, wouldn't even look at it. They just said they were not interested even after I offered to pay up front. So I was stuck with a car that couldn't be repaired at 3.5 years old and 14k miles on it. No accidents or misuse. Either not repairable or the repairs are too difficult to do.
At least with a manual car you know the clutch can be replaced at a reasonable cost almost anywhere.
The *one* catch with automatic gearboxes as far as I'm concerned is watching out for terrible implementations, as Cougar said.
We have an '07 Jazz (CVT) and '15 Civic (proper dual clutch DSG). These are both lovely to drive: the CVT obviously is smooth as butter and only when really pushing the DSG can you feel the changes.
We used to have a '11 3008. With an 'automated manual' EGC gearbox, this was a nightmare to drive, sometimes refusing to change when it really needed too. Luckily there were flappy paddles to manually change when it went terribly wrong. The refresh in 201something switched to a EAT6 box which is DSG, apparently.
So yeah, the biggest catch with ICE automatics is needing to find a review of the car to verify it has CVT or dual-clutch. Automated-manual: avoid!
My Berlingo has an ETG6 gearbox which I think is an 'automated manual' and it's totally fine. I've driven some pretty fancy automatics too and mine isn't as smooth but it's nowhere near the nightmare some people describe.
This is exactly what I had with my last car. Kind of. The cost of parts were very expensive but no dealer, including the main dealer, was willing to do the work. Even though I knew the cost and offered to pay. No one would touch it.
That's weird - what car was it?
The DSG in my VW by the way is repairable, fairly easily depending on what's wrong obvs. It comes out like a normal gearbox, and much of the internals are the same in terms of bearings and gears. The mechatronics unit is the expensive part but that a) pops out in one piece and can be removed without even taking the box out b) can be refurbed or even repaired if you can source the parts, I swapped two valves for £60 each c) can be sent away for said refurb by post to a number of specialists - I think there are enough around now that you stand a good chance of finding a local place.
Automated-manual: avoid!
I am happy enough with mine. I change gear via paddles as I prefer to select the gear rather than let the car surprise me. I like changing gear, I just don't like having to use a foot operated clutch, especially when in traffic which is half the time!
Weren’t you banned from driving for quite some time?
(-:
Yes, but that had nothing to do with being unable to change gear like a man.
Ironic winky
EAT6 box which is DSG, apparently.
The EAT6 and EAT8 are proper autos with a torque converter that use technology thats been around for years. They work very well and last. They are not DSG.
DSG is the VAG group dual clutch auto box (2 normal clutches hydraulically opperated) and there are 2 types. Wet and dry. Wet seem to last well, but dry wear out very quickly as I found after 14k miles. I wouldn't touch another dual clutch auto.
That’s weird – what car was it?
Skoda Yeti. 1.2 DSG dry dual clutch box. Dredded DQ200 model. Lovely car but ruined by an awful gearbox. I nearly traded it in for a manual Yeti but it was cheaper to buy a 10 month old Berlingo.
If you can repair them you could make a small fortune as so many go wrong and VW don't want to know.
Is JohnEdwards Surfmatt under a new username? It’s the sort of ‘performance driver’ bollocks he used to post.
I was SOO expecting that. I’m absolutely convinced that the more you, as an equipment operator, are invested in the direct operation of the machinery, the more you’ll be aware of the consequences of your actions.
As an example. Auto driver – not paying attention – comes screaming into a corner too late, overbrakes, gets away with it and comes out the other side. The car makes his gears right and he’s on his way having noticed nothing.
This bit in particular, I don’t know where to start, really. I mean, if, through inattentive driving someone enters a corner too quickly, but instead of smashing through a wall or whatever gets away with it just because the gearbox somehow saves the situation, and I’m really not sure it would, then that’s a good thing, and I’m pretty certain that the sweaty palpitations and thumping heart from the experience would probably encourage the driver to be more careful in future.
Whatever.
Using a manual was such second nature to me I was barely even aware of doing it most of the time, and my only experience of driving an auto from when I learned to drive in 1974 was a Buick Skylark in LA in 1993, and I wasn’t that impressed as it was a column shift, but having to negotiate LA traffic on the wrong side of the road on the wrong side of the car meant that having to struggle with a manual shift with my right rather than left hand was one less thing to bother with.
Using engine braking with a diesel in slippery conditions was second nature as well, but when I started working for BCA as a logistics driver I had to drive whatever I was given to drive, so long as my license covered it, so anything up to 3.5 tons, and lots of vehicles modified for disabled drivers, and driving hundreds of different vehicles over roughly 100,000 miles, often in heavy traffic, I very quickly learned that modern auto ‘boxes are a wonderful thing, and other than the driver who ‘likes to make progress’, probably 90% of drivers won’t drive any different in an auto to a manual.
My EcoSport has a semi-auto, which isn’t as smooth as a DSG, but one-foot driving is such a pleasure now, as my left knee becomes ever more painful, and along with auto-wipers and auto headlights, I have nothing to think about other than the road and other traffic, and what it’s likely to get up to, and I’m enjoying driving more now than I have done in ages.
I’m having the car remapped soon, so I’ll ask if the ‘box can be tweaked a bit, but the extra 36ps and 60Nm will help things along, that’ll take it up to 156ps and 210Nm , not bad for a 1.0 three cylinder!
Changing gear with a manual can become very onerous if the car in question has a clutch with a bite point near the top of its travel, and a heavy return spring; the Zafira is a particular example, getting caught in slow traffic becomes agonising after a while - there are others, but I can’t remember which now, I drive too many cars.
Oh, I might suggest a Corsa rather than an Astra, nice little car, I’ve driven dozens, I drove six back from Cornwall in one week, courtesy cars from a bodywork place, and they are a fine little car, the auto is quite smooth, the engine is very eager to pull, and over the last five-six years they’ve had a heated screen as standard - that’s been dropped on the latest model, as it’s not GM-based.
A Toyota Aygo might work, noisy, and the auto lags a bit, but stick it in manual and use the paddles and revs, they’re quite an exuberant little car.
If it were me I’d buy him manual, if you buy him an auto he’ll likely never get a manual. I’d say that’s laziness so I’d nip that in the bud, if he can drive a manual then and only then does his next car get to be an auto
My V50's an auto, never had a problem with not paying attention or keeping track of my speed, it's a lovely, comfy barge for long journeys. I'll tell you what, though - I won't have another auto, I totally understand how you occasionally read stories of people driving through shop fronts or mowing down their neighbours as they accidently put it into D instead of R. It is also nowhere near as entertaining to drive.
I have nothing to think about other than the road and other traffic
There's the major problem with modern cars, many drivers cease to devote their attention to the road as the car does everything (or so they think).
There’s the major problem with modern cars, many drivers cease to devote their attention to the road as the car does everything (or so they think).
Well the vast majority of people don't drive autos, and AFAIK everyone still has to steer and brake, so I'm not sure what 'everything' could mean.
I would argue that the mega-soundproofing on higher-end modern cars is more likely to be the worst thing for making people forget they're driving/feel cocooned.
A Toyota Aygo might work, noisy, and the auto lags a bit, but stick it in manual and use the paddles and revs, they’re quite an exuberant little car.
Yep, I have had one for 10 years. First one 95,000 miles and second one now 3 years old. The newer model is a lot better than the first generation.
I have had some fairly good sports cars in the past and I can honestly say I enjoy driving the Aygo just as much (all A/B roads and towns)
thanks all for your continued advice.
his test is monday, so he definitely wont be changing his mind. i, and probably he too, would probably agree on all the advice that manual will give him more choice, but, hes made his mind up. just to answer some of the points made......
yes hes self employed, but subbing, so ladders etc are all provided. however, theres still the chance that at some stage hed want to go it alone, so as you rightly say, his choices are limited. once hes (hopefully) passed and starting to actually get used to driving, id say he may consider retaking the test in a manual if he needs it, but he just wants to get 'on the road'.
and yes i agree with the point about newer autos being good, but his budget only stretching to older ones that maybe arent so good, certainly nothing with flappy paddles. maybe a bit of experience driving a sh1t auto gearbox will spur him on to either buying better, or taking a manual test, who knows.
anyways, back to the original question, he'll definitely buy an auto car, its just which one now. he doesnt want anything too small, i think the nissan note is about the smallest he'd go.
thanks again for your advice, its really useful.
Honda Civic, crv or accord, loads of autos out there. The decorator we use for any domestic work uses a Hyundai hatch back - I think it’s quite telling that he is neat and tidy enough to use his car rather than just sling it all in a van.
anyways, back to the original question, he’ll definitely buy an auto car, its just which one now. he doesnt want anything too small, i think the nissan note is about the smallest he’d go.
What sort of space does he need in there?
As ever, consider the insurance quickly. As a 'just passed' the 2.0lt Astra SRi he wanted will drain his bank account for a couple of years...Same Astra with a smaller engine for now will be mucho cheaper (other brands are available).
i think about astra size is about right for his needs. he'll have work gear plus a baby seat in there.
when i questioned the insurance on an astra (popular with young pups, ragging them and crashing them), he stated that he'd found that the cheapest option (and yes hed quoted as tho he'd just passed his test). that may have been a smaller engined astra tho, not sure.
cheers
fancy casting your expert eyes over a couple of focuses for the boy please?
i get a better feeling for the 1st one, 2 owners and low mileage, altho short MOT and no mention of service history.
he also linked me to a honda civic but altho it looks nice inside, i get the feeling that those nice little extras could start to go wrong (such as the window that doesnt work)
what do you think about the focuses? decent punt?
thanks
The 2009 era ford powershift can have serious issues as milage gets up. A gearbox rebuild is £2k, so I would stick away from that. Nice box when it's working though. So on that basis alone, the older one looks better.
Won't he need more space for tools and that?
Mileage doesn't mean a lot without service history and that seems massively expensive for a 15 year old Focus to me.
Could be a good car, but plenty of people seem to manage to kill even newish cars well within 50k miles. And it's almost guaranteed to have lived a life of doing short journeys, always driven cold. And of course many components perish with age, they don't always need to see a lot of action. Any car that age is likely to have you familiar with either your toolbox or the local mechanic, which is something you need to factor in to the overall cost.
That Civic looks a bit tired.
I once test drove a Civic, the squat hatch model after that version and before the current (which is what I now drive) and it was one of the harshest rides I've ever experienced. It felt like the wheels were directly bolted to the chassis.
Good luck for tomorrow.