builder issues : how to proceed

Presumably the job was all documented ahead of any building work commencing so it's a simple case of comparing what you're expecting now against what you were priced up for initially?

If the initial "scope" was wrong then that's on whomever drew it up; if you've changed your mind about something in the meantime then that's on you.

No?

Also, 

Why has a 5-month job taken a year and counting?  Were they tossing it off or were there unforeseen problems?

My partner watches these property shows on TV.  People buying a farmer's barn with no roof and intending to turn it into Blenheim Palace, and so forth.  It is always considerably over budget and always takes twice as long as they think.  I had to laugh at one guy who was doing a build on the coast of somewhere like the Inner Hebrides.  Massive delays due to the weather.  Like, who could have possibly anticipated that?

I think you have to ask yourself what will you do if the builder gets pissed of with you and walks away?

And what percentage of the total build cost does £2.5k equate to?

And I can't picture how there's a 4" height difference between floors? Is the screed going to be 4" thick!?

And does the garage floor really need to be screeded. Couldn't you whack some matting down in the places you stand?

...and 1cm ridges - really? Even with my bodge-tastic concreting I can manage better than that! 🤣

The 4" threshold strip that the garage door closes onto would also represent a trip hazard, so that's a defect that he's introduced.

Posted by: Cougar

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Presumably the job was all documented ahead of any building work commencing so it's a simple case of comparing what you're expecting now against what you were priced up for initially?

If the initial "scope" was wrong then that's on whomever drew it up; if you've changed your mind about something in the meantime then that's on you.

No?

The scope is posted up there, it's defining "is this considered within scope" that's the issue. Quibbling over wording, essentially.

Posted by: 5lab

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Fit garage door (detail at top)

Floor entire garage floor with flat concrete pad

- Garage door has been fitted, 90mm (4", ish) higher than floor level.

- Extra concrete slab has been added to garage extension.

- Builder says "no need for screed, the original concrete floor + the extra bit is considered 'floor'"

- OP begs to differ as the original bit of concrete is not 'floor' as defined by standards.

My questions:

Surely when the door was being put in 90mm higher this question came up?

Why is a 1-2cm screed not enough?

At this point I'd be using mats and, as our US friends say, sucking it up. At this point you probably want rid of him asap and an end to the work, without falling out too much.

Posted by: Cougar

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Why has a 5-month job taken a year and counting?

Yeah, that's really quick 🤣

Builders wording that concrete is correct to what was needed, not asked for.  If you asked for ‘smooth floor to entire garage, that’s what should have been quoted and provided.  

Why is a 1-2cm screed not enough?  Because screed needs to be a minimum of 50mm thick to maintain its form, and even that’s a bit skinny and wants to curl up at the edges.  Also, the door is 90mm off the concrete, so it’d be a bit draughty I’d imagine!

to me it sounds like youve not specified what you wanted?

 If you asked for ‘smooth floor to entire garage, that’s what should have been quoted and provided

Except that's not what was asked for, flat does not = smooth.

Floor entire garage floor with flat concrete pad

I don't think that is a good enough description.  What you have got now fits the supplied scope/specification - you have to make everything as clear as possible.  If you wanted the floor to be higher and a new finish throughout you should have stated that.... and then done a diagram showing the levels required!

I'd be looking at whether you could put some self-levelling compound down.

(I'm the son of an Architect and have seen many, many specifications - including for my own properties.)

so we thought that the spec of 

Floor entire garage floor with flat concrete pad

Was enough to infer that the existing pad wasn't to be re-used. its interesting to see here that its not everyone's reading.

The door is 90mm too high because the  old garage floor is slightly sloped (to get runoff), so the far end of that is only 60mm below the floor finish. you can't run much less screed (of this type) than 60mm.

When they fitted the plinth under the door, they said this was so they could screed it flat. They just didn't state this wasn't included in the "floor entire garage floor with flat concrete pad". The current pad (imo) is not flat (its neither level nor flat) - so by stating "entire garage floor" we were trying to in-scope the flattening of that. Perhaps we did a bad job (which is why I'm seeking external opinion)

we could have gone the matting route, but now we can't because there's a 4" lip at the front. If you take that lip out, there's a 4" gap at the top of the garage door. 

Yes, the fact that the builder built up the 4" lip in readiness for the flat floor finish means that he k ows what was required to meet the scope, he's just back tracking now.
*IF* he had no intention of providing for a flat finished concrete floor in the garage, then he wouldn't have instructed the door to be installed a a position that provided for further out of scope works without communicating that.
The floor is on him, he knows he's got to do it, he's just chancing as hes missed it in his costings.
Of note, I'd prefer to have a physical barrier that stops the reliance on the garage door seam to keep water out of what is becoming a finished space. No, that's not a curb, but a step.. here, a step minimum is 4".

Sounds to me like the new finished floor level is 60mm higher than existing concrete and the 90 mm is to get a level floor . That sounds exactly what you need for a screed , a 10 mm is not a screed to fill in the rumblestrip floor it's self levelling like a carpet layer would use and not a suitable wearing surface

A garage floor should be on the drawing as a step down from the house floor level as a bund ie stop anything leaking from the garage getting into the house

12 months is a massive disruption, are they there every day.  I m 2 months into a build and all progressing well.  Can't comment on screed but if the relationship is good I d pay up, or maybe they don't want the work and want to get started elsewhere.

Depends what sort of client you are, if I were living there I d be looking over builders shoulder asking loads of questions, but I am not, so deliberately not getting involved.

Hope it all goes smoothly

What you did there, I saw it!

Not sure the NHBC standard applies to garage floors

Posted by: bearback

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Yes, the fact that the builder built up the 4" lip in readiness for the flat floor finish means that he k ows what was required to meet the scope, he's just back tracking now.
*IF* he had no intention of providing for a flat finished concrete floor in the garage, then he wouldn't have instructed the door to be installed a a position that provided for further out of scope works without communicating that.
The floor is on him, he knows he's got to do it, he's just chancing as hes missed it in his costings.
Of note, I'd prefer to have a physical barrier that stops the reliance on the garage door seam to keep water out of what is becoming a finished space. No, that's not a curb, but a step.. here, a step minimum is 4".

 my thoughts also 

Yeah the builders built the 4" lip so it could level to screed, but apparently that was always going to be an extra thing I was paying for outside the scope of the work. 

To be exact on the depths, for the new finished floor the front and rear of the new slab are 90mm lower, the front of the old slab is 90mm lower and the rear of the old slab is approx 60mm lower. The whole finished floor height has been based around old floor high point + minimum screed depth. 

Fwiw I'm certain he knew it was in scope and is now backtracking, but that doesn't necessarily help me. We can go to arbitration but only after the bill has come through, the floor is being poured sooner than that. I still have an option of getting them to do the floor, but does agreeing to that stop me later arguing that it should have been included as it's listed in scope of work?

We went through this on a much smaller scale with "extras" that were included in the spec. 

We had stage payments and specified stages of completion.  Work not done to spec and contract  = no payment. 

Many domestic extensions have lower cash out Vs payments at the front end.  They won't be holding your cash separately for your job so some of your earlier payments have been funding the costs on other jobs that have passed that point.  Suddenly your rapid initial progress slows when you stop being the job generating spare cash.  

This all works OK ish until there's a blip in the builder's cash flow - bad weather, a cancelled or delayed job etc.  Then the jobs on the cash negative tail get ignored. 

Personally I'd be going back to the contract and written specs and digging my heels in and withholding at least the cost of the screed work from any payment for a stage of the bill that's supposed to cover that bit of the works.  

2k to screed a garage floor seems a lot unless it's a huge area, 1m3 of mix at 100mm deep will give you 10m2  or 13m2 at an average of 75mm

It's only a garage floor so level and reasonable smooth bull float finish 

To me

Floor entire garage floor with flat concrete pad

Suggests they would be fitting the entire floor with a flat pad, however, it sounds like they have only floored the additional 3m of flooring.

I've just had a small extension completed. It was quite involved as an external & internal wall came down, the garage height had to be increased to match the internal ceiling height of the new bit, a window on the stairs had to be moved to accommodate the increased garage height & new roof (pitch of the old garage roof was too shallow).

I thought we had quite a good description of required works, but it was quite impressive how many things weren't included as the build progressed - stuff that I didn't know would need to be done (I'm not a builder) that I assumed would be covered as part of doing the building work & other stuff that was perhaps not made 100% clear in the description that I interpreted to mean a certain thing, but the builder thought meant something else.
The whole thing was a bit of a nightmare & I realise how naïve I was throughout the whole process. We ended up with a bill for extra work that was 'unforeseen'. It wasn't massive in comparison to the total cost, but it did stick in the throat a bit. A couple of the items I dug my heels in with & we agreed to go halves on the cost. 

If I was to do anything like it again, I will be nailing down everything that I want done & being a lot more explicit in my expectations/specifications.

I feel for the OP. Would you be happy to compromise & see if they will agree to going 50/50 on the cost?
I got to the point where I just wanted the work done & the builders out of my house. It has cost me a bit more money, but the instant relieving of stress & feeling that we are out of the other side of it all was worth it.

Good Luck with it all.

2k to screed a garage floor seems a lot unless it's a huge area, 1m3 of mix at 100mm deep will give you 10m2  or 13m2 at an average of 75mm

it is large - 30m2 (10x3) after the extension - I got a quote from another place and the price is roughly right, so I don't have any concerns about that.

Suggests they would be fitting theentirefloor with a flat pad, however, it sounds like they have only floored the additional 3m of flooring.

correct, as of now the existing, ribbed, ramped, painted flooring hasn't been touched.

Personally I'd be going back to the contract and written specs and digging my heels in and withholding at least the cost of the screed work from any payment for a stage of the bill that's supposed to cover that bit of the works. 

that is also my thinking but I'm wondering if agreeing to pay them to do the screed is an admission that it was out of scope in the first place (so reduces my ability to negociate later on)?

Why has a 5-month job taken a year and counting?  Were they tossing it off or were there unforeseen problems?

there were no unexpected problems with the current house - its only 10 years old so not much to hide. They basically moved people off onto other jobs.

Not sure the NHBC standard applies to garage floors

it doesn't, but I'm trying to find a definition of "flat" and it seemed like a reasonable place. There is also the LABC warranty specs

which says

The concrete should be float finished and to at least a GEN3 grade, as the garage is not a habitable space some
surface imperfections of the floor finish are acceptable

but also says that full specs need to be met if the garage is decorated/protected against frost. In our case the garage isn't heated itself, but is integral to the house (room behind, to the side, and above) and has an insulated door, plus doors to the inside of the house, so I think there's some argument it is habitable, at which point tolerances says

Floors up to 6m across can be a maximum of 4mm out of level per metre, and a maximum of 25mm overall
for larger spans

we are more than 25mm across the entire floor

Posted by: John Doe

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Suggests they would be fitting the entire floor with a flat pad, however, it sounds like they have only floored the additional 3m of flooring

That's exactly where the disagreement is. Builder says half the floor was already there, so now that they've added the new bit, the entire floor is now covered and is to spec.

That's exactly where the disagreement is. Builder says half the floor was already there, so now that they've added the new bit, the entire floor is now covered and is to spec.

Yes I get that and I think the builder is trying it on. If they were only going to make good the additional floor, it should have said 'Floor additional floor with flat concrete pad to match existing'.

IMO

2.25 cube and 1/2 a shift for two guys, this must be London rates

12 months is ridiculous. We had a two story, 5 room extension built which nearly doubled the size of our house, complete house refurb, new heating, windows, joinery and flooring throughout, 4 new bathrooms / en suites and landscaping done in 6 months , and that in early 2020 in first wave of Covid. With that level of sloppy timekeeping, I'm not surprised builder is trying to ramp up costs and that you are questioning them.

Ok so we did a fairly large amount of rework to our house 2 years ago (100k).  It could have been done in 3months if the builders had cracked on and turned up every day, but, as I've heard from many others they took on other work during our build and basically buggered off, and then came back in between other jobs.  It was frustrating but there was bugger all we could do about it, other than bin them off and try to find another

We had several 'unforeseen' things pop up, the thing that cost the most was the flooring - we had very similar - when I spec'd the flooring I had meant 'to finished floor level' whereas the builder just slapped a rough slab in there and said that met the spec of a 'floor'.  I just stumped up in the end as the % cost versus the overall build was small and I had a 10% contingency set aside.  

So focus on the outcome.  Do you just want the project done and to be able to enjoy the property or do you want to continue with the disruption and stress.

I would just pay it, but make it clear it that you won't be paying any more 'unforeseen' stuff unless he can say what it is likely to be up front - this should be possible as you are nearing the end of the build.

I did end up getting pissed off with trades not turning up / asking pisstaking prices so I did the majority of the finishing and fit outs (utility/downstairs loo / kitchen / doors / skirting / painting) myself.  Saved me in the end in the region of £20k (yes seriously)

I sympathise with you, but how many threads have you started along similar lines?

You need to have a serious talk with the builder about the whole project and decide if you can face finding another company. If you're almost at the end then it shouldn't take too much effort between you to uber-spec every remaining job to prevent this heart-ache

but how many threads have you started along similar lines?

yeah quite a few. Not trying to spam, its just a difficult relationship of the type I have no idea how to deal. Right now they've just got a bit of plasterboarding and second fix to do around the place, then paving and drainage outside. Much as I hate to, I'm tempted to do the paving myself at this point, just to get rid of the stress. The guys on site are lovely, and the finish is great, but dealing with the owner is awful (and was for another mate of mine who had a job finish a little after ours started)

Posted by: ossify

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The scope is posted up there, it's defining "is this considered within scope" that's the issue. Quibbling over wording, essentially.

 

 

Then "the scope" wasn't drawn up correctly in the first place, was it.

The builder's interpretation of the spec is absolutely comical, and he knows it.

Is there a payment schedule of any kind in place?

If you pay for the screed, is there any payment left that you could hold back later?

Is there a payment schedule of any kind in place?

If you pay for the screed, is there any payment left that you could hold back later?

There is a payment schedule, but its not been stuck to. They've built stuff out of order compared to the schedule - so at the moment we have upstairs pretty much 100% done, but still no floor or plasterboard downstairs. We (to try and be helpful) have been paying roughly the proportion of work we think has been done, rather than making them suffer on that. Right now we're probably slightly over-paid - I think there's £15k left to pay but £20k of work left to do, something like that - so definitely money can be held back, and there's a dispute resolution service mentioned in contracts which I guess we can engage at the end 

fwiw, they're also trying to wriggle out of 

supplying garage door - approx £4k

supplying utility cupboards/units - approx £3k

they messed up building the roof, trying to charge us £11k

footings were 1.4m instead of 2m in spec, trying to charge us £2k (as more than 1m deep)

ripping up old flooring (£500?)

and probably a few other things I forgot

BS8204 2003+A2: 2011, Screeds, bases and in situ floorings — Part 1: Concrete bases and cementitious levelling screeds to receive floorings — Code of practice Part 2: Concrete wearing surfaces — Code of practice  has 3 classes of Surface Regularity.  These can be assessed by measuring the gap underneath a 2m straight edge placed on the floor, SR1 - 3mm gap, SR2 - 5mm and SR3 - 10mm.

SR3 is considered suitable for a utility finish.

I have just checked my builder quote, nervously..., but it states what it covers but more importantly, exactly what it doesn't.  Before accepting the quote I did actually walk round the job with the builder and explained exactly what I understood he was going to do.

The above post would stress me out, mid job you really don't want to be changing builder.

I really hope you get it sorted, for your own sanity.

Posted by: natrix

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BS8204 2003+A2: 2011, Screeds, bases and in situ floorings — Part 1: Concrete bases and cementitious levelling screeds to receive floorings — Code of practice Part 2: Concrete wearing surfaces — Code of practice  has 3 classes of Surface Regularity.  These can be assessed by measuring the gap underneath a 2m straight edge placed on the floor, SR1 - 3mm gap, SR2 - 5mm and SR3 - 10mm.

SR3 is considered suitable for a utility finish.

This is great. I didn't know where to look. I went and measured the old floor and the ridges are often deeper than that - 15-20mm in places, so I think that supports the argument that it's not to spec

If the existing concrete is so badly rippled due to a baton finish how can that be the fault of this builder?

At least there's going to be a good mechanical key for the screed

It's an easy thing to rectify maybe just over the top cost for 30m2 at an average depth of 75mm

Posted by: redmex

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If the existing concrete is so badly rippled due to a baton finish how can that be the fault of this builder?

At least there's going to be a good mechanical key for the screed

It's an easy thing to rectify maybe just over the top cost for 30m2 at an average depth of 75mm

 

the existing floor isnt the "fault" of the builder, but with the spec of 

Floor entire garage floor with flat concrete pad

the aim was to create a new floor and sort the old one. Otherwise we wouldn't have included the line in the spec

unfortunately its not a good mechanical key as its painted, so will need priming with a couple of layers of something

these are the images if they're not working above

supplying garage door - approx £4k

supplying utility cupboards/units - approx £3k

they messed up building the roof, trying to charge us £11k

footings were 1.4m instead of 2m in spec, trying to charge us £2k (as more than 1m deep)

ripping up old flooring (£500?)

How much of this was in the original spec? The only thing that sounds potentially reasonable is the footings issue if the original plans were in error.

Either way, sounds like you are headed to dispute resolution anyhow, particularly if they are trying to charge you for their own mistakes on large items like the roof, so 2K for a garage floor may be the least of your worries. 

Looking at those numbers, you're already ~£23k away from each other assuming he's taking the piss and you were clear on the requirements and haven't changed them. That'd probly put most sole traders under. He can't swallow that. You'll need to negotiate or find another builder to finish off.

The builder's interpretation of the spec is absolutely comical

TBH it's the spec that's at fault here.

But the whole thing sounds like a shit-show. 

Posted by: The Pope

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The builder's interpretation of the spec is absolutely comical

TBH it's the spec that's at fault here.

But the whole thing sounds like a shit-show. 

The spec's not perfect but I think the intention of it is clear enough.

"Floor entire garage floor..."

What's the word "entire" doing there if not to make it clear that it refers to the entire garage and not just the new bit? 

"...with flat concrete pad"

And yet the builder interprets that as including a large lip at the front which is anything but flat while leaving significant ridges in place?

He wants the entire garage finished flat. The builder has not done the entire garage and it's not flat. I'd be amazed if an adjudicator sided with the builder on this.

Posted by: 5lab

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footings were 1.4m instead of 2m in spec, trying to charge us £2k (as more than 1m deep)

I'm reading that as the footings were spec'd at 2m but dig to 1.4m and he's still trying to charge extra. Is that correct?

Posted by: doomanic

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I'm reading that as the footings were spec'd at 2m but dig to 1.4m and he's still trying to charge extra. Is that correct?

yep. he's saying they "only allowed for 1m" so the extra 40cm is on us. Despite the spec having 2m. I've no concern about the actual depth (BC signed it off), but I feel like I should be paying less, not more..

How much of this was in the original spec? The only thing that sounds potentially reasonable is the footings issue if the original plans were in error.

all was in the original scope of work. We've added a few things along the way (bit more tiling, a few more sockets) that we've agreed a price on up front, and we've no issues with those at all

Posted by: 5lab

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he's saying they "only allowed for 1m" so the extra 40cm is on us.

So he's ignored the spec and is trying to charge you £2k for a couple of hours work with a digger and a bit more concrete...

I wonder what other stuff he's ignored?

I think you said up there ^ you've £15k left to pay on £20k of work? I think I'd be keeping my £15k and spending it with someone else. I know it's a royal PIA but he's ganna bend you over for at least £20k of 'extras' or cut corners/not complete the work AND waltz off with your £15k.

I'd pay him for your view of what's completed plus any extras you've agreed to, then off hire him. Tie the scope up really tight on the remaining/remedial works and get someone else in. It will cost more time but may save you money and definitely angst.

The spec's not perfect but I think the intention of it is clear enough.

"Intention" and "inferernce" is not enough I'm afraid.  Builders are not necessarily the sharpest tools in the box - you need to specify exactly what you want otherwise they might misinterpret what you want.

I always supply a drawing.  Here's a very simple one that I supplied to our builder when we were knocking rooms together and redoing one floor (the differences in heights were to accommodate the new finishes giving a level surface across all three rooms).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SyvuOBhKOhUqSBVEpss62Vg6ZSXoKloh/view?usp=sharing

An adjudicator would take the view of how a competent builder acting reasonably would interpret it. Personally I see no reasonable alternative interpretation. "Entire garage" can literally only mean the entire garage. 

It doesn't matter what an adjudicator thinks if the builder hasn't got any money...

Have you actually checked the trade price of a garage door , or some kitchen units? 

Those prices are on the high side , they are on site doing the job with all the tools required. Its a few hours work plus materials . 

Re the floor. Can't you just DIY it with a decent self levelling compound like mapei 3240 . Bucket , mixer , float , some packers screw in to the existing to keep it level. Then flaunch in a lip with a bag of concrete. 

Less agro than fighting with the builder , let them get on with it . Get them off site and pay . Then relax , no one is going to die if the floor is abit  ridgey for the next few weeks. If you don't want to do it then find a one man band who will do that job for £150 cash if you knock up the compound and barrow it into position