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young womanterrorist has a child soon to be born in a refugee camp.
FTFY.
I think overall, as a country we should clear up our own mess.
Which clearly she is part of, & there's plenty more where she came from. IMO once youv'e decided to take terrorist action against your own country/countrymen, a cause which she has been supporting for the last 4 years, then that's it, no way she should be coming back here.
'Face trial' How? Ask her if she did or didn't do this & that?
Would you trust a terrorist?
If she and the child come back, some poor bastard of a social worker is going to have the case from hell land on their desk with immediate effect!
Interesting quote from someone who has been involved in high level CT work.
A pregnant British teenager who fled to Syria with two schoolfriends to marry an Islamic State fighter should be “given a chance” and allowed to come home, a former director of global counter-terrorism at MI6 has said.
Shamima Begum is just a teenager. Britain should be strong enough to take her back.
Describing Shamima Begum as “a 15-year-old who went badly off the rails”, Richard Barrett said British society should be strong enough to reabsorb her.
I’d think it’s for a court of law to decide that.
As i said, I’m still struggling to see how “getting pumped” is a criminal offence.
I'm pretty sure they might have a reasonable case for membership of a terrorist organisation, which I believe is a crime.
breatheeasy
I’m pretty sure they might have a reasonable case for membership of a terrorist organisation, which I believe is a crime.
If 'they' have that case, then why are they happy to leave her roaming the world with her liberty intact?
I actually find it odd, that most people that class her as a terrorist don't want her tried with, erm terrorism.
Well, there a strong possiblity she won't make it back to BLighty, so there won't be a Daily Mail uproar to handle, and it's cheaper, to think of two.
And the plod aren't exactly gonna pop into Yemen in a patrol car to pick her up.
^^^ lol really ?
Someone, for good but probably for bad, is already on their way to get her.
££££
In fact she's probably half-way here.
case for membership of a terrorist organisation, which I believe is a crime
Would be interesting. Not sure she's ever admitted membership of the proscribed organisation (ISIL) just that she wanted to live in the caliphate or if she ever invited support for the same
I skipped to the end of the thread to see if 6 pages was enough for the hang'em an flog'em brigade had crawled out of the woodwork. Seems my suspicions were correct. Thankfully I have a different view as Mrs Daz is good mates with an 'ISIS wife' who's husband killed himself in a suicide bombing in Syria. I can assure you all that these cases are far more complex than a simple black and white 'betraying your country' decision. In her case it was a tragic case of her husband being radicalised at the hands of the US army in guantanamo, and the love and devotion of a wife who was desperate to save him and reunite him with their kids. I suspect there is more to this story too.
Someone, for good but probably for bad, is already on their way to get her.
This way Madam, if you care to step onto this blacked out plane, our Blackwater pilot will have you home in a jiffy....
TiRed
Member
... I cannot envisage her poor life choice having much impact on my life. Unlike the 52% of the British population who also made a poor a life choice which threatens to bring down UK society as we know it.
Try explaining your twisted logic to a family member of someone murdered by ISIS in this country. I am pretty sure they too would agree with me that your an idiot; whether they voter leave or Remain.
I cannot envisage her poor life choice having much impact on my life.
No but maybe you're not gay, Jewish, Christian or Atheist. (Actually I'd have thought there's a very high chance you are one of those.) I appreciate we're going to have to take this family if they choose to come here but you really have to admit that bringing in a family who, if they could, would kill almost everyone out of sheer bigotry is sub-optimal to say the least.
This young woman has a child soon to be born in a refugee camp. There are whole documents on the rights of children to an identity and not be stateless.
From earlier posts it looks like this child will have an abundance of nationalities: Syrian, Dutch and UK.
Some other random thoughts. Why does the family need to get to a UK consulate? Syria have already said they want rid of as many ISIS fighters as possible ASAP, the last thing they want is to look after ISIS fighters indefinitely so they'll be more than willing to pop them on a plane with no questions asked and let the UK/Netherlands authorities sort it out Airside at Heathrow/Skiphol.
I was also thinking about the life this family chose. When they turn up in a new town, do we think they found accommodation and paid rent? Or did they randomly accuse a local family of being Gay/Jewish/Christian/Atheist and kill/evict/enslave them and help themselves to the place? I know what I'm going to bet.
In 4 years time this September there's going to be a classroom of Reception year primary School kids who will have a classmate who was conceived specifically to serve ISIS and who is being told at home that Gay people should be murdered.
I fully accept this woman is morally and legally Britain's problem and it's inevitable that the Syrians will (quite reasonably) dump the family on us or Holland but this is not a happy situation for the UK.
I'm got intense sympathy for the victims of ISIS (Jojo Dixon, son of Sally-Anne Jones often springs to mind) but for the perpetrators not a drop.
I also wonder what happened to John Cantlie.
hang’em an flog’em brigade
Oh yeah, anyone opposing Isis is definitely the hanging and flogging side of the debate... [1]
[1] Yes, that is sarcasm.
That the gravity of what she’s done and the beliefs she held, and likely still does, seems lost.
While I deplore her stated beliefs, do we know what she's actually done?
I was also thinking about the life this family chose. When they turn up in a new town, do we think they found accommodation and paid rent? Or did they randomly accuse a local family of being Gay/Jewish/Christian/Atheist and kill/evict/enslave them and help themselves to the place? I know what I’m going to bet.
In 4 years time this September there’s going to be a classroom of Reception year primary School kids who will have a classmate who was conceived specifically to serve ISIS and who is being told at home that Gay people should be murdered.
You are rambling and making stuff up. How do you know what will be going on in the house or classroom in four years time of a child that has yet to be born to a woman you have never met?
You must be set to win the sweepstake on the babies name or the guess the weight competition when its born?
While I deplore her stated beliefs, do we know what she’s actually done?
No ransos, people are just making **** up to suit their prejustice.
What I want to know is... If people can be convinced to go to another country and join a terrorist organisation in order to marry an older man they've never met and raise their kids in poverty, why can't I even get a handjob?
While I deplore her stated beliefs, do we know what she’s actually done?
Well we know she saw the horrific crimes against totally innocent people of the kind I posted above on the news and thought "Yeah, that's for me." and took steps to get there to join in. We know it wasn't an impulse decision it was planned.
We know that having lived the reality of a death cult she has no regrets and we know she stayed 'till the very bitter end.
We know she claimed that she was glad an anti Isis fighter was killed because he would have raped and killed - and yet she and her husband did surrender to anti-Isis fighters and they seem to have been well treated.
But yeah, I doubt there will be any hard evidence to convict them of anything in Syria and I suspect very little in the Uk. Membership of a proscribed organisation maybe but was she a member? Did Isis really keep good enough records to prove she was a member? So yeah. Probably innocent of any crime. But that's not really what this is about. We all agree that legally and morally this family are the UK and Hollands liability. All we're arguing about is whether that's a good thing or not. I think it's not because the less bigoted murderers there are in the UK the better AFAIC.
do we know what she’s actually done?
Of course we don't. Doesn't stop the pitchfork brigade though.
What I want to know is… If people can be convinced to go to another country and join a terrorist organisation in order to marry an older man they’ve never met and raise their kids in poverty, why can’t I even get a handjob?
Have Cove stopped making it then Northwind?
Out of breath, you and myself literally have no idea how the young woman got to the position of being unfazed by what she saw and may have taken part in. She may have been conditioned. You don't know who she associated with and whether there was duress involved. What is her state of mind? Hard to say without proper examinations. Since you know the babies name and weight what was her relationship with her husband like, or others she conversed with. YOU TRUTHFULLY HAVE NO IDEA.
You jump to conclusions but don't engage enough in critical thinking.
How do you know what will be going on in the house or classroom in four years time of a child that has yet to be born to a woman you have never met?
Sorry, I should have said, *if* Syria deport the child to the UK with its parents then in 4 years time this September there’s going to be a classroom of Reception year primary School kids who will have a classmate who was conceived specifically to serve ISIS and who is probably being told at home that Gay people should be murdered.
How does one go about joining a top terrorist organisation these days?
Some people bring horrendous prejudice to bear on a topic
Hence the question earlier about her getting a fair trial? I reckon with the media coverage your going to have to be an Eskimo to not be a teensy bit biased
School kids who will have a classmate who was conceived specifically to serve ISIS
Has she said that's why she was having the baby? I missed that if she did.
Hence the question earlier about her getting a fair trial? I reckon with the media coverage your going to have to be an Eskimo to not be a teensy bit biased
Also hence my question that if she committed a criminal act and was under the age of 18 would she not be tried as a juvenile and a decision made by a judge rather than a jury? Nobody answered that one.
Also, perhaps you would have to be an Inuit to not have heard of her come a trial, but I would have hoped that there were enough people in this country capable of making a reasoned judgement and leave prejudice at the door on such a criminal case if a jury is required, but going by this thread and what is going on around the country at the minute we may be stuffed on that front.
people are just making * up to suit their prejustice.
Yep. Sadly it doesn't take much these days for someone to put 50p into the *hole and for them to give us all the benefit of their broad moral outlook.
Actually going out there to support ISIS is a crime, and she's expressed no remorse about that, or some of the things she witnessed, the comment about heads in bins bring the obvious one.
If she still has British citizenship, she can come back, and the justice system will do what it has to do.
But I very much doubt she'll be allowed to keep the baby.
How does one go about joining a top terrorist organisation these days?
...and if you were going to join a terrorist death cult, what would the best tyres be?
Actually going out there to support ISIS is a crime
Yup, you're right and my post above was wrong. Bang to rights. Only ten years though so out in five and lots of disaffected fellow prisoners to convert to the cause. (Although I'd have thought extreme homophobia in a women's prison wouldn't go down too well, there's nothing else to do FFS!)
The act of being a member of, or supporting such a group, or wearing an item of clothing such as "to arouse reasonable suspicion that he is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation" is sufficient to be prosecuted for a terrorist offence.
The Terrorism Act seemed a bit illiberal to me, still does. A jury has to decide beyond reasonable doubt if there's reasonable suspicion! The latter kind of lets you off the former!
Yup, you’re right and my post above was wrong. Bang to rights. Only ten years though so out in five and lots of disaffected fellow prisoners to convert to the cause.
You are making stuff up again. Do you have a beef with the judicial system in the country as well? Does your imagination normally run this rampant? No more chocolate milk before bedtime story for you. How would you feel if she ended up in a young offenders Institute? Slobbering over your Daily Mail I expect.
What Morecash writes is all that I and most others would expect. Her apparent lack of remorse may be a mitigating circumstance as is her age and many other factors that would come out during a trial. I am not expecting her to get a palatial council house a 52 inch telly and and £400 a week benefit.
Please tell us the babies name though as I might put £10 on it.
It blows my mind how people can just ignore the things that happened over in Syria and then scold others for having no compassion. Nobody cares about what happened to the yazidis here, same as when they were actually being slaughtered. British government did **** all. Let it slide.
Funny, because I don’t think people are necessarily doing so. I have had a huge problem with it - hence writing to MP’s, writing to businesses exporting and supporting agencies who are assisting victims.
Post-1945, the majority of the international community supported the creation of the United Narions and a new international legal framework.
It wasn’t done for fun. Action was taken following the hardest lessons humanity has ever had to learn.
Are we really prepared to throw away the lessons learnt by people who had literally seen the worst humanity could do - without effective controls?
You are making stuff up again.
I quoted the law:
The act of being a member of, or supporting such a group, or wearing an item of clothing such as “to arouse reasonable suspicion that he is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation” is sufficient to be prosecuted for a terrorist offence.
Based on that, rightly or wrongly I think Morecash is right and I was wrong - she does meets that test.
Do you have a beef with the judicial system in the country as well?
Broadly no, all I said was that The Terrorism Act seemed a bit illiberal to me a the time and still does. "arousing reasonable suspicion" alone shouldn't get you 10 years inside, IMHO.
Must admit, I wanted to give the father of one of the girls on BBC a hug though. Poor bloke, seemed a soft type. The amount of hurt that these girls have put their families through is easy to underestimate.
Bang to rights. Only ten years though so out in five and lots of disaffected fellow prisoners to convert to the cause. (Although I’d have thought extreme homophobia in a women’s prison wouldn’t go down too well, there’s nothing else to do FFS!)
No outofbreath you have not quoted the law. You have created your own little narrative. You have assumed she will be be convicted of a crime, sentenced to 10 years, she will be well behaved and out in half her term. You have also generalised that she will radicalise fellow inmates display homophobic tendencies before being converted to lesbianism as there is nothing else to do in an all female prison.
Have I missed anything?
No outofbreath you have not quoted the law.
Ok, I quoted *some* of the law.
Here's the entire section on support. You can navigate to the rest from there:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/12?view=plain
Must admit, I wanted to give the father of one of the girls on BBC a hug though.
Me to, absolutely heart breaking.
Outofbreath, I think it's probably agreed by all that she'll get charged with something, personally I think it'll be more specific than general association with terrorists. They were high profile, there will be plenty of evidence uncovered about their activities would be my thoughts.
But that's all by the by, in the public arena, there's scant information so it's pure speculation there's really no point in talking about what she'll get charged with, it'll be more than you can come up with after a few googles at the terrorism acts.. I can sit here and think of 100 different scenarios.
My question is, what would you do with her, if she hands herself in at a British consulate?
outofbreath, you are one of the laziest and most easily defeated of posters I have seen on here. Thought I would post your comments again for a laugh below. What have a bunch of women got to do when they are stuck together in prison but become lesbians eh? They have nothing else to do otherwise.
Yup, you’re right and my post above was wrong. Bang to rights. Only ten years though so out in five and lots of disaffected fellow prisoners to convert to the cause. (Although I’d have thought extreme homophobia in a women’s prison wouldn’t go down too well, there’s nothing else to do FFS!)
I notice that whenever I point out an inaccuracy in one of your posts you then have to make an adjustment or correction.
For the third time,
Does your link account for the possibility of a charge as a juvenile?
Does your link say she will be convicted and receive the maximum 10 year sentence?
Does your link say she is guaranteed release after 5 years?
Does your link say she will radicalise fellow inmates?
Does your link say she is homophobic?
Does your link say that she will become a lesbian through boredom?
You know the answer to the above, so perhaps you should navigate it rather than me.
As others note atgray,including today’s press; she is almost certain to be charged. Apologies for pointing this out while you are trying to win your wee personal battle with oob.
Outofbreath, I think it’s probably agreed by all that she’ll get charged with something, [snip] But that’s all by the by,
Yeah, I only brought up the Terrorism Act Stuff to concede the point that there's something she could be charged with after I'd suggested there might not be. Then I got sucked down a massive Terrorism Act rabbit hole. I agree it's all by the by.
My question is, what would you do with her, if she hands herself in at a British consulate?
She's British, she's our problem morally [1] and legally [2], so we'll have to take her back. [5] The only argument is whether this is good news or not. I think not, [3] the fewer people in the UK who prefer a society who throw gay people off buildings to a liberal Western Democracy the better AFAIC.[4]
So that's everything I think about this topic in one post.
[1] Not fair to dump our problem on Syria or anywhere else.
[2] We can't legally make her stateless and no other country will take her.
[3] I don't buy the idea that she's a victim of Isis. She went to join the perpetrators and she was one of the least brainwashed people in Isis. Most Isis members from the local area will have had far more brainwashing and many of them will have been coerced to join Isis. In contrast she had the internet and the Western Media to research Isis from every point of view and she concluded after a far more balanced set of evidence that they were for her. Children forced to fight with Isis didn't have that luxury, nor did women forced to be concubines for them.
[4] PS: walking into the Consulate? Is that how this is going to go down? The anti-Isis forces have made it clear that they have more Ex-Isis folk than they can handle (they fear a massive breakout). So will they really wait for her to walk to a Consulate (with a baby on the way it could be months or even years) or will Syria be deporting every foreign Isis volunteer as soon as they can? I'd have thought that latter.
[5] I guess we *might* be lucky and this family might choose to go to the Netherlands, or even luckier and the Syrians might prosecute her locally and imprison her long term there - she'll have been living in buildings that her side have vacated by murdering or displacing innocent families so there's perhaps a minuscule chance that Syria have some evidence she was part of that and will be willing to take action on it. But yes, the 99.999999% likelihood is that the UK will end up taking this family, and that *is* our responsibility due to the Mother's nationality.
"In fact she’s probably half-way here."
Read all about her journey in the Sunday Times?
I've decided she should come back , especially if she can shed some light on who it was in her school or community that persuaded and assisted 4 schoolgirls to join up. Which imo is the elephant in the room.
She may well have some information on John Cantile that'd prove useful.
A lot of reports painted her and foreign joinee's of Isis as the ultra hardline religious enforcers/police, so if she made it back I'd really want to make sure she would be charged in full for any of the horrific stuff she might have been involved with. She absolutely must not be able to get away with it or continue to inflict those believes on others.
My other concern is that our government and judicial system at the moment doesnt appear to be competent enough to deal with this sort of thing, and our services aren't funded enough for the outcomes.
From my objective point of view it is very simple.
She comes back because she is a UK citizen
She get's questioned and then tried for any crimes she has actually committed
If found guilty of any crimes she may have committed then serve what is is given
The end
She’s British, she’s our problem morally [1] and legally [2], so we’ll have to take her back. [5] The only argument is whether this is good news or not. I think not, [3] the fewer people in the UK who prefer a society who throw gay people off buildings to a liberal Western Democracy the better AFAIC.[4]
Nobody is saying this is good news. This certainly isn't a good news story, and everyone is keen to have as few ISIS sympathisers as possible.
Importantly you say that morally we should take her back. This means that based on our values this is the correct and right thing to do. End of. That is all that I and others expect.
I am finding it hard to stamp down on any sympathy I have for her. She was 15 ! Brainwashing via the internet can be very powerful, plus the "mass hysteria" affect of having the three of them conspiring with each other. Kind of like a live version of Heathers, with less fashionable clothing.
Then straight away three babies, two of whom died of things that were totally avoidable.
All before 19.
Somebody from channel 5 needs to send a reality TV camera crew to the refugee camp immediately to film her experience trying to get back into the UK. They could gather up a bunch of ISIS brides, put them on a coach and they all get to vote a person off each day, until the last three reach the British Consultate in Turkey. I would watch that.
And lastly - has anybody set up a crowdfunding page yet to get Northwind a Handjob ?
This way Madam, if you care to step onto this plane chartered by Cardiff City FC
Not my joke of belief ... but still funny.