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You’ll be calling me a nazi sympathiser next. Grow up FFS.
I would ask what you'd prefer to be called but no doubt you would say, 'a realist' or 'a very smart person'.
But if Brexit apologist or Lexiter has become an insult, what is the non-triggering term for someone such as yourself who accepts that the vote happened and feels remaining out of the EU is the only viable course for the UK?
Pros: Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Cons: I now know that the majority of my close family are racists.
I can think of two:
1. The Cameron UK government’s EU “reforms” didn’t happen when the UK chose to leave instead. I told remain canvassers at the time that I was sufficiently opposed as an EU citizen to consider voting leave on principle.
2. We can no longer return asylum seekers to the first EU country they entered. The UK now has to face its responsibilities to some degree, though it still hides behind Le Touquet by placing passport control on French soil and forcing refugees into boats.
or that leave shouldn’t have told a pack of lies? And should be treated accordingly
Given that the clever ones are still counting their winnings and laughing at the people they conned, what treatment can be imposed?
Or are we talking about the true believers amongst the politicians? I wouldn't worry about them - they are already rightly ridiculed at every turn - that ridicule is appreciated by those who are able to see it for what it is. Their dwindling followers? What's the point? If someone still thinks Brexit is a good idea they are a lost cause.
But it still is not answering the original question. Which cannot be answered in any tangible way by anything other than there aren't any.
I would ask what you’d prefer to be called but no doubt you would say, ‘a realist’
Well on the subject of EU membership, realist is exactly what I am. What makes more sense, trying to focus on stuff that is possible, or mourning what is already lost and fantasising about stuff that will never happen?
Move on FFS. Stop obsessing about what 'brexit' benefits exist/don't exist and start worrying about what UK benefits are possible.
As a German resident, I got an absolute bargain when I bought a Cotic bike just after the referendum. The GBP had plummeted, Cotic and the German agent didn't touch their prices (I assume just for those frames that were being made in Taiwan and had already been paid at pre referendum price?)
The combination of brexshit and trump which was all sort of around the same time, was very helpful in purging so-called friends from my friend list. And I mean that IRL, not just on the book of farce / ****ter/X etc. The one I skied with many times, who told me I had to change my political opinions was the first to go. Told him to F off, and to make sure he changes his opinions to that of the next government each time they change, and have never spoken to him ever since. Good riddance, He's not the only one permanently removed from my life. There were several other annoying acquaintances that used to cling on like a turd stuck to your butt-beard, and brexshit/trump was the perfect event to wipe them away for good.
Building a closer relationship with the UK is entirely possible, what's getting in the way are the "red lines" shared by Sunak and Starmer, mainly no freedom of movement.
And let's face it, the end of freedom of movement is what's behind most of the cons on this thread.
Edit:
start worrying about what UK benefits are possible.
We really are all ears, Dazh. You are among the most prolific contributors to political threads and have so far come up with nothing.
accepts that the vote happened and feels remaining out of the EU is the only viable course for the UK?
The second part of this sentence doesn't necessarily follow on from the first. Like @dazh, I accept that we have left the EU, and we'd better make the most of however that looks. If offered a vote on another referendum, I would vote to re-join (I voted remain). I think leaving the EU has exposed Tory (and Labour ) lies, and will hold them more accountable in the future, and that can only be a good thing.
Move on FFS. Stop obsessing about what ‘brexit’ benefits exist/don’t exist and start worrying about what UK benefits are possible.
these possible benefits, are they in the room with you now? 😉
if you could list them, that'd be great
I imagine we'll end up with single market membership within the decade, whether we will ever fully rejoin I dont know
because the public are getting very weary of being told the sunlit uplands are just around the corner
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1691408383243329536
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1691048660107137025
I imagine we’ll end up with single market membership within the decade
I think so as well, plus some limited agreements to allow easier travel for at (the very) least tourism.
Well on the subject of EU membership, realist is exactly what I am.
OK. and just so we're clear, are there any differences between a realist and a Brexit apologist? Since, as you say, Brexit has happened and it's time to move on, how is that not accepting and arguing for the UK's continued Brexit status?
Building a closer relationship with the UK is entirely possible, what’s getting in the way are the “red lines” shared by Sunak and Starmer, mainly no freedom of movement.
Careful, that's dangerously close to saying that continuing with Brexit is primarily being driven by xenophobia.
If offered a vote on another referendum, I would vote to re-join (I voted remain).
Sorry, I'm struggling to get my head around the fact some people would vote to re-join but they don't want to be given the opportunity to do so.
If you ask me this whole country has gone to aboslute shit.
The NHS is all but destroyed to the point it feels almost dangerous to rely on it. Social Services also seems to be failing given the number of shocking cases in the news. Forget about even trying to find a dentist! There is almost no policing. Public infrastructure and services all seem to be run down, roads full of potholes, train strikes, parks and public spaces badly have no maintenance. They've filled in all the kids sandpits round here due to lack of money. Energy and water companies underinvest whilst making huge profits and nobody seems to do anything about it. (How many billions do we owe to water companies??) Cost of everything has gone through the roof. There also seem to be just open corruption, especially with all that PPE stuff. It's completely depressing.
It's surely going to be a long long time if this is ever fixed.
The right wing press will blame Labour when they get in and we'll be back to Tory again soon enough.
Most of the media seem to just distract everyone with people in boats, or transphobia or whatever other minority is the target this week.
How difficult is it to move to the EU now?? Seriously thinking of moving abroad.
but they don’t want to be given the opportunity to do so.
How have you inferred that's the case?
If you ask me this whole country has gone to aboslute shit.
This has more to do with the Tories being in power for a decade than leaving the EU.
I'm looking at it from an EU point of view, Brucewee. Freedom of movement was at the heart of negotiations:
The NHS is all but destroyed
It is struggling for sure, but the people working there remain amazing. After a recent dog bite, I took my wife in to our local A&E, she was well looked after and stitched up within 2.5 hours despite us visiting after 11 on a Saturday night.
Whilst I would love to rejoin I dont think its likely for the simple reason we would not be able to rejoin on the same terms as those we had as members when we left. 3 I would imagine would be different are
1. We would loose the rebate we had
2. We would have to join the Euro
3. We would have to join Schengen.
Whilst I would be all for rejoining on those terms it would be interesting to see how polls would look if they were the terms put to the public
If you ask me this whole country has gone to aboslute shit.
You finally recognise the problem. This was happening long before we even thought of leaving the EU. It was happening before the tories entered govt in 2010, and before labout entered govt in 1997. Labour arrested the slide a bit, then Cameron and Osborne turbo-charged it, but it had bugger all to do with being in the EU. At least now people are beginning to realise that.
How have you inferred that’s the case?
Because you can't, on the one hand, be in favour of accepting the vote happened and moving on while, on the other hand, being in favour of going back and revisiting the question of whether the UK should be in the EU or not.
You can't move on and go back at the same time.
Whilst I would be all for rejoining on those terms it would be interesting to see how polls would look if they were the terms put to the public
Joining the Euro would be a ridiculously stupid and self-destructive thing to do. I'd be fine with Schengen, free movement is no problem as long as we have sufficient minimum wage and worker protections. I don't mind paying whatever it costs either, but joining the euro would be economic suicide.
The only brexit benefit seems to be an entirely imaginary “we can now have really great trade deals and all the best laws imaginable now that we have Taken Back Control”.
Without any thought as to how practicable and plausible this scenario is nor how far from the reality of how it’s actually turned out.
Because you can’t, on the one hand, be in favour of accepting the vote happened
The vote has happened, That's a fact. it does not necessarily follow that I support it, or that I am in favour of it. We are where we are. More people voted out than remain, that's democracy it's that simple
on the other hand, being in favour of going back and revisiting the question of whether the UK should be in the EU or not.
It's clear that more and more folks are realising what they've lost, and in my opinion the likelihood is; a slow reversal of the current position back to either another referendum that is laid out with more definition than Call me Dave could devise, or (more likely) a parliamentary vote.
The real benefit of leaving was avoiding EU anti tax avoidance legislation. The problem with that is only a tiny, but influential, proportion of the population benefited from that
There were loads of threads on here pre Brexit where people were singing its praises.
If only we could look at forum history
Every time I see one of those polls about record levels of rejoin sentiment I am still wowed by only one thing. That (depending on how you look at it) somewhere between 2 and 4 of every ten people you might see in the street don't want to rejoin. Given everything that has gone on, that is incredible and depressing.
Anyhow - tangible benefits of Brexit (without changing the entire national and international backdrop), please...
We would have to join the Euro
No we wouldn't. In fact we probably can't. Either way it's not a requirement on joining
We would have to join Schengen.
See above.
We would loose our rebate, that I agree with you on,
I’ve just finished reading “Johnson At Number 10” and it’s been eye opening to say the least.
Brexit was allowed to be all things to all people because, basically, to those who were proposing it, it was seen as a panacea, with none of them particularly interested in defining how, exactly, it would work, because it wasn’t in their interests to do so.
Some of the absolute true believers such as Rees-Mogg are borderline delusional in their thinking. They see it as an existential battle for England, that will start to benefit us in fifty years. Basically they think that they will be seen as their legacy as great English (mostly) men similar to those who ushered in the American Age of Enlightenment.
Grandiose fantasies of (very) mediocre men.
Because you can’t, on the one hand, be in favour of accepting the vote happened and moving on
I presume you're in agreement with US republicans who won't accept that Trump lost the election? Where does this anti-democratic position end? Presumably you have no problem with authoritarian fascism as long as the govt of the day does stuff you agree with?
You can’t move on and go back at the same time.
We have to move on. We'll probably be going back to a closer relationship in future. Both can be true.
I don’t mind paying whatever it costs either, but joining the euro would be economic suicide.
Calm down there. It's unlikely to happen, the chance of the French and Germans at any point in the future being happy to share a currency with us after the mess of the last 15 years, even if "we" wanted that to happen, is so slim as to be ignored... but if somehow it did it wouldn't be "suicide".
But none of this is in the "Brexit benefits" list.
that’s democracy it’s that simple
Yes, and there are many laws around voting to ensure it is fair and the result reflects the decision of an informed electorate. Voting without adhering to these laws is not democracy.
Which brings us back to the advisory referendum...
As an aside, all the Brits I knew in France are still here 6 years on . All but three now have French nationality thus assuring the French economy benefits from their talent. Two of the three are going through the formalities and will no doubt be successful. The reamining one's wife successfully applied for French nationality but he didn't even apply for reasons unknown - but he's very British.
On the other hand the two people I knew working in the UK gave up and returned to France. Both hotel workers on the south coast, one a chef.
Government stats back up these anecdotal observations but I've failed to find numbers for those obtaining nationality as oposed to being on the other side of the Channel with residency.
I agree with Kelvin. Any economic suicide has already happened since Brexit so its hard to see how it could be any worse
Which brings us back to the advisory referendum…
You'll need to get behind me in the long line of folks waiting to give Cameron a shoeing I'm afraid.
All but three now have French nationality thus assuring the French economy benefits from their talent.
Anecdotes... everyone I know from home now living in an EU country has either pushed for citizenship or is working on it. Being a Brit abroad has changed for many people. That's a Brexit benefit perhaps, for them and their chosen homes.
On the other hand the two people I knew working in the UK gave up and returned to France.
To my surprise; most of the European* clinicians (mostly dentists) I recruited, some waaay back in 2015, are nearly all still here, something like 18 out of 20.
*Polish, Spanish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Estonian...from all over.
somewhere between 2 and 4 of every ten people you might see in the street don’t want to rejoin. Given everything that has gone on, that is incredible and depressing.
It's neither incredible or depressing. For reasons I've already explained, the one thing leaving the EU has achieved is exposing the lie that our membership of it was the source of many of the problems we have. Knowing that why would anyone be that bothered about rejoining when there are much bigger fish to fry? Ask those 20-40% of people whether we should rejoin they'd almost certainly tell you we should sort out the NHS first, along with Social Care, Schools, energy prices, lack of affordable housing and many other things which directly affect them. The fact that you prioritise rejoining the EU exposes your (relative) lack of concern for these other things, so it's little wonder that these people don't agree with you.
*Polish, Spanish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Estonian…from all over.
When you see them, thank them.
The fact that you prioritise rejoining the EU exposes your (relative) lack of concern for these other things, so it’s little wonder that these people don’t agree with you.
You can be concerned about all those things and consider closer links to our neighbours as part of the solution to them, rather than something abstract and unconnected from them.
That Irish data is questionnable. A cursory look at average net incomes are UK £596pw and Ireland £602. Many businesses are 'based' in Ireland for tax reasons and benefits do not accrue to locals. There are downsides like paying to visit the GP etc which get overlooked.
If a majority in the UK wish to rejoin, why isn't Starmer getting in front of that crowd?
It would perhaps be interesting having a roll call thread for STW members who have obtained nationality of an EU country they are resident of or have family links to. 10-20 I'd guess.
I can only think of one EU national living in the UK under withdrawal agreement terms on STW and he's a Brexiteer who hadn't appplied for UK nationality the last time asked and has since been evasive.
Edit: Starmer can afford a golden passport, he doesn't feeel concerned, and he's too rich to care about anyone else IMO 🙁
If a majority in the UK wish to rejoin, why isn’t Starmer getting in front of that crowd?
Because it depends where that crowd live doesn't it? I'd wager that the most pro-remain/re-join areas are nearly all large metropolitan areas, and traditionally labour voting whereas most of seats Labour need to win are in "no-longer voting Labour" or "never voted Labour" leave areas.
Rejoining isn’t a viable option. The EU wouldn’t want us back at the moment, and there are far more urgent problems to solve.
The EU might not want the UK back as a full member but has repeatedly offered a Norway type deal.
I can only think of one EU national living in the UK under withdrawal agreement terms on STW and he’s a Brexiteer who hadn’t appplied for UK nationality the last time asked and has since been evasive.
I know a few EU nationals living and working in the UK and their lives haven't changed. The fear of what leaving the EU would result in and the reality are very different. Almost like project fear was exactly that.
The EU might not want the UK back as a full member but has repeatedly offered a Norway type deal
Have they?