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So, was it a one-way deal? I mean, they didn't kick us out, so can we get back in?
I'll start the campaign, got nothing better to do.
I thought that was a myth – we were still under the EU regs at the time.
We were,it was, there's an interview of the person behind the rollout that actually explains this.
It has hastened a united Ireland.
I’m not going to die in a ditch over this, but I’m pretty sure that had we still been in the EU, politically we would have had to join the the European procurement/rollout of vaccines irrespective of any opt out that existed in law. People seem to have forgotten that the EU didn’t exactly cover itself with glory over this issue & quite a few countries were actively considering going it alone. (But didn’t because politics) It is a myth that leaving the EU was the only legal way we could have gone it alone on vaccines, but I think in reality it wouldn’t have happened if we were still in Europe.
Wasn’t there a clause in the EU rules stating that in cases of emergency, such as a global pandemic, that individual governments could fast track things such as a vaccine rollout, so in theory it would have been the same even if we were still in the EU?
Benefit counter is back down to 0.
We have well and truly ****ed the country up for decades to come. But hey… Blue Passports!
Where are they printed BTW?
but I’m pretty sure that had we still been in the EU, politically we would have had to join the the European procurement/rollout of vaccines irrespective of any opt out that existed in law.
Counter factually, it may have been the case that had we still been in the EU then our influence in this area may have changed the EU roll out as a whole. We'll never know, and it's somewhat irrelevant to the overall argument, as the Venn diagram of those supporting leave and being anti-vax has a pretty large overlap.
Why didn’t someone think of this 10 years ago?
I do miss pubs, though.
Last time I visited the UK the ones I used to go to had been closed and some even bulldozed. I don't drink anymore so cafe culture and nobody being bothered if I order a hot chocolate or a beer means I still socialise beyond sport.
I've just checked, around 30% fewer pubs since I left the UK and about half the kind of small pubs I used to go to have closed.
On the vaccines front the view from Europe was that the UK was selfishly trying to monopolise vaccine supply and do the dirty on Europe which was producing the very RNA vaccines that enabled Britian to role out first having cut short the validation process.
Edit: one bonus is that on STW Brexit resulted in a hell of a clear out. A small number of Brexiteers still post with an elevated average age but many have left "chat" for good. Maybe Mark can produce some stats, I had a look through the original Brexit thread a while back and was struck by how many remain pseudos are still here and how many leave I haven't seen for along time. Those that have gone were often ****ing irritating in other resects too, three that are still here still are but the others I've forgiven. 😉
People do know that there are EU countries that opted out of different stages of the vaccine rollouts, yes? Being uncooperative and using opt-outs and special clauses within the EU is a thing... "politically" friendly or not... we were one of the prime examples of that for decades.
reeksyFull Member
Why didn’t someone think of this 10 years ago?
I don’t actually believe that this thread would have been the same if it had been suggested 10 years ago. I think it is interesting to re-read the first few pages of the Brexit thread. Enthusiasm for the EU was pretty limited with an awful lot of folks who subsequently became ardent remainers being ambivalent at best about the institution. I’m as anti-Brexit as the next person on here, but it doesn’t hide the fact that the EU is far from perfect & it was much easier back then to identify the problems than the benefits, especially because nobody really believed we’d be stupid enough to vote leave.
kelvinFull Member
People do know that there are EU countries that opted out of different stages of the vaccine rollouts, yes?
Didn’t know that. Which ones and at what stage? Did any of them rollout vaccines faster than we did?
lots of benefits but I guess none of them are for Britain
EU parliament operating more efficiently without Farage and other British MEPs obstructing proceedings
as mentioned above, less immigrants (Gammon in Spain)
also, as mentioned above it has stopped all other talk re leaving the EU. I think there were two bluffs,
a) Cameron didn’t really expect the public to vote to leave, saw the referendum as a way to get the anti EU camp to finally give it a rest.
b) don’t think the British gov really thought the EU would let them leave. Thought the EU would come cap in hand begging them to stay offering some huge reduction in the amount Britain paid annually.
obviously both bluffs back fired massively
main con (for Ireland) is difficulty trading with Britain which would have been main trading partner
folks who subsequently became ardent remainers being ambivalent at best about the institution.
But they clearly stated they'd vote remain.
especially because nobody really believed we’d be stupid enough to vote leave.
I applied for French nationality at the time of the Iraq war because
1/ a strong affinity for where I live and where my son was born. An affinity with the values
2/Blair invaded Iraq despite Dominique de Villepin's prophetic speech at the UN
3/ Blair was talking about a referendum on a treaty and I supected the British public would vote against anything European, I felt uncomfortable living in a place I wasn't a national of.
Before the referendum we tranfered most of our UK assets to Europe, I really believed.
I hoped for a remain vote (I didn't have a vote because I hadn't been Uk resident for 30 years), I was deeply saddened by the leave vote (and a tad annoyed, stupidity always annoys me) but in my heart of hearts I was expecting it.
Increased profits through the reintroduction of EU roaming charges.
The richest in the world per capita
Infrastructure is still very poor and undeveloped though, with a good few 'social issue' especially in Dublin. It's a long way from being the Switzerland of the north that it wants to be.
Ok
especially because nobody ( except edukator) really believed we’d be stupid enough to vote leave.😉
I think that photo of Boris the morning after the result tells it all
main con (for Ireland)
I would argue Ireland is the biggest benefciary of Brexit. It now has the highest per capita GDP in the world, all it needs to do is sort out its internal politics so that all the Irish benefit.
Edit; crossed posts with you, Caher. I agree, you can make similar comparisons with Norway or Luxemburg. The wealth is there and there's the potential for the Irish state to more fairly redistribute it, it's up to them.
Switzerland has its own issues, half a million Swiss live elsewhere in Europe with many being frontaliers. Poor Swiss can't afford to live in Switzerland. I used to work for a Swiss company, one of the management, a Swiss working in France, knew he'd never be rich enough to return to Switzerland.
I thought that @crosshair was being ironic but re-reading his post I'm not so sure.
@crosshair are you really (still) supporting Brexit? If so please enlighten us as to why? I don't often get the chance to get the view from the other side so it'd be great to hear your views.
Switzerland has its own issues
I Know, i lived there for 5 years and was glad to leave in the end but i'll live abroad again just not somewhere so up tight.
Just in my industry , aviation. European licensed pilots are allowed to fly for uk airlines. Uk licensed pilots can’t fly for European ones. All signed off and agreed by UK gov/CAA. Thanks a lot 😣
Not only has my retirement dream of sailing the med for 2 years been made nigh impossible, but travel/education/work opportunities overseas for my children have disappeared too.
I used to be a proud Brit, now I’m an embarrassed one. I’d move in a heartbeat if I still could.
Schadenfreude as all the racist pensioners with homes in Spain have discovered all too late that “send them back where they came from” also applies to them.
Just for balance (we are obliged to give balanced coverage these days aren't we?) my non-racist remainer pensioner sister and brother in law who live in Spain are as pissed off as most (if not more) as they can now only spend half the year there.
Did any of them rollout vaccines faster than we did?
Depends on the question.
- Did any start their rollouts before we did?
NO
- Did any achieve high levels of vaccine coverage before we did?
YES
Most of the reluctance to participate, especially in later stages, were to do with costs not time though, IIRC. I don't think any gained time advantages in the way that we claim to have done, if anything they lagged behind by not participating.
Brexit benefits – lets start a list
...keeps STW in business - the page clicks generated must be bleedin' huge!!
If Labour get in and we re-engage with the EU then STW is going down! 🙂
The potential future benefits are pretty obvious for anyone with an open mind but I doubt anyone on this thread is ready to consider them. Admittedly this requires a different government which is willing to break the consensus on austerity based economics but the potential benefits are real and massively transformative.
PS. Today it has been announced that basic wage growth is at a record high. Now I'm not saying it's down to not being in the EU, but it's a question that needs answering. It's probably a factor, but how much of a factor is debatable.
Edit: Another real one is that there is now a growing realisation in this country that our problems are not to do with the EU but down to our own government who act in the interests of a small elite at the expense of the rest of the country. It was always too easy for the tories (and some labour people) to blame EU membership for low wages, lack of investment, inability of the govt to support industry/the economy etc. Now it's pretty obvious to anyone who cares to look that all these things are a result of our own government and the policies it implements, and from that there is the potential for change. You can't solve a problem until you identify what it is.
I got flashed by a speed camera on my drive through France and never so much as received a letter which google suggests is a result of brexit, so a small personal win there to offset against the ruined retirement plans, and general hassle of travelling in Europe now
1/ Brexit has given a huge amount of new material to comedians.
2/ You would hope that people will now think more if offered a public vote.*
3/ Once we hit rock bottom our new masters will make sure everything improves.
* Available soon 'Remember Brexit' badges
😆 🤣
The potential future benefits are pretty obvious for anyone with an open mind but I doubt anyone on this thread is ready to consider them.
Go on... we're all ears...
Today it has been announced that basic wage growth is at a record high.
And real terms wages are doing what exactly...?
High inflation outpacing wage growth
While wages are currently growing at a relatively fast pace, high inflation is currently cancelling this growth out, leading to the negative growth in real terms throughout 2022 and early 2023. Although it is likely that UK inflation peaked in October 2022, at 11.1 percent it has yet to fall below double figures as of March 2023. Forecasts from the Spring 2023 budget predict that the annual UK inflation will average out at 6.1 percent in 2023, before falling to 0.9 percent in 2024. Falling wages is just one of the aspects of the current Cost of Living Crisis, which has led to the steepest fall in living standards in a generation
https://www.statista.com/statistics/933075/wage-growth-in-the-uk/
The potential future benefits are pretty obvious
potential doing a lot of work there, the reality is that any benefits we have seen have been offset by the costs incurred, how many years will it take to reverse the damage of brexit before we can even think about net benefits
Today it has been announced that basic wage growth is at a record high. Now I’m not saying it’s down to not being in the EU
seeing as its still a pay cut and brexit has certainly helped increase inflation and as ever its the poorest thats hit the hardest
I've played this game with my gammony racist uncle a few times and even he can't come up with any credible benefit. He thought he had me on Blue Passports but I pointed out that A: the colour has no bearing on its status as a legal document and B: we were able to choose the colour anyway when we were in the EU, we only changed to burgundy so as to signify out new status as an inclusive nation. The fact that the new ones are made abroad made his brain implode and he went off on a massive incoherent rant for a few minutes 🤣
The only (and this is really clutching at straws here) benefit I can come up with is that we can revert back to the old style number plates we had pre-2000 with wider letters. This is only a benefit to me as it means I can get a pair of legal new ones made up for my Mini rather than having to get some 'show plates' made up, which I have done and they're sat on my parents kitchen roof to age them a bit so they don't look too new. It's never going to happen though as it makes no difference to anyone and I don't think the older plates will work for a lot of reg numbers with any country identification marks as they would have to be longer and not fit on lots of people's German Panzerwagons (SUV's).
Counter that against the cost Brexit had cost me in £ that I can calculate (bought a Canyon after they hiked the prices, the parts I couldn't buy from Germany and the nosedive in the pound) that is easily over £2k and I'd rather have what we had before and run 'new' plates on my classic toy.
It is then maintained by making life even harder for those outside this privilege group, and once you’re in it you’ll do ANYTHING not to drop out. Go live & work in the USA for a while, this is our destination – just don’t be poor (or unlucky)…
Ah, that's me properly ****ed then ☹️
PS. Today it has been announced that basic wage growth is at a record high. Now I’m not saying it’s down to not being in the EU, but it’s a question that needs answering. It’s probably a factor, but how much of a factor is debatable.
But when you take into account inflation we are markedly poorer. The wage growth is fuelled by inflationary pressures, not a good thing at all.
I get a lot of pleasure from those who after 7 years are still crying "WAHH everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist."
Perhaps the remain side should have made a stronger case at the time?
None.
There should be a separate queue for the people who voted for Brexit at the borders.
I feel sorry for the school leavers who can’t spend a summer/winter working on a campsite, bar, ski resort etc.
The only potential “advantage” maybe that Scottish people who see how badly the divorce from the EU has gone may reconsider how they vote in terms of independence.
Please someone convince me that Brexit has been a good idea? My wife works in the NHS, the extra £350 million a week seems to be missing!
Perhaps the remain side should have made a stronger case at the time?
or that leave shouldn’t have told a pack of lies? And should be treated accordingly
Still waiting for a Brexiteer to list a tangible benefit. Could be a long wait................................................
potential doing a lot of work there
Hence my last point. The benefits of brexit are almost all dependent on what government we have and what policies they are prepared to implement. Now that we are out of the EU we can do a lot of stuff that we couldn't do before, but it needs a govt with the will to do it, and that motivation will only materialise if the voters understand that it's our govt that needs to do these things rather than someone else. At the very least different things are possible now when before they weren't.
Well i suppose there could be a reversion back to imperial measurements. £ and shillings, groats.
dazhFull Member
The potential future benefits are pretty obvious for anyone with an open mind
Go on then, we're all ears, it's all in the thread title. You voted remain, Dazh, you said you would, and even if you got some stick for being a Brexit apologist and Lexiter after the vote you knew what was best for Britain back in 2016.
Beyond becoming even more of a financial rogue state and the social/environmental dumping possibilities I really can't see any obvious advantages however open my mind.
High wage rises might just have something to do with runaway inflation, I doubt they are record rises given the inflation driven (and driving) rises in the 70s and 80s.
Leaving the EU as a benefit of voting to leave the EU is; in of itself an article of faith to some folks, it just is. It doesn’t need explanation or inspection.
Agree. If you hate the EU for whatever reason then leaving the EU is enough. Don't look into the ill effects of leaving and just carry on regardless in your own little "I left the EU so I am happy about it" world.
But when you take into account inflation we are markedly poorer. The wage growth is fuelled by inflationary pressures, not a good thing at all.
Totally.
The UK is in quite a dangerous spiral when it comes to the value of the £ out there in the real world. Obviously there are inflationary pressures everywhere - availability of basics will go down due to population growth, shocks like Ukraine, raw materials being held by rogue states etc.
But actively choosing to be a PITA to deal with for our neighbours and allies seems doubly stupid given the backdrop.
"The EU has inflation too".
Er OK, but we are exposed to the same external pressures - probably to a greater extent AND we have opted to add friction to trade with our nearest neighbours.
But this doesn't really answer the OPs request. Shutting the thread with a last comment of "sorry, couldn't think of any" with a link to a blank Word document would be the ideal, I think.
One of the big benefits that Moggy et al forgot to share was the current immigration problem and loosing the ability to return migrants to the EU.
Brexit apologist and Lexiter
You'll be calling me a nazi sympathiser next. Grow up FFS.
what was best for Britain back in 2016.
What was best in 2016 is very different to what is best today. No doubt everyone on here thinks rejoining the EU would automatically solve our problems, but the fact that we still have many of those problems after leaving shows that rejoining would make very little difference, whilst at the same time cutting off the opportunity to change things.
For reference I personally would prefer to still be a part of the EU.
However, atop a hill in rural France in June the speed limit was exceeded by me and a camera in a rock flashed at me. Apparently driver details can no longer be shared. I repent my sins and ask for your forgiveness. This is my one and only * benefit* so far, others may well say I should have been punished.