The media is failing here, it needs to pin them to their earlier lies and make it clear that they will not be allowed to rephrase or reinterpret them to cover their dismal failures.
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1336327841223385097
We'll get through it, but only in the same way you'd get through your house burning down. A lot of time, money and effort to try and get yourself back to the position you were before the fire. Meanwhile the person with the matches is telling you to be positive at least you'll get that new kitchen you wanted.
People who say we should just put up with shit are nearly as bad as the people who force the shit on us in the first place.
Over centuries we’ve worked out a form of democracy that protects us against the wilder swings of public opinion and here we are advocating that mob-rule is the only way to make decisions now.
But as Hunt has correctly identified, a temporary 2% margin 4 years ago doesn’t give anyone any mandate to make tough decisions. And that swings both ways now, once we’re out (and international pariahs for being dicks) we won’t get back in with 52% support for rejoining.
We have to make the best of this very small window to limit the damage. We could still end up staying in SM and CU if the leadership actually listened to the public opinion now.
And I repeat: No one voted for this.
And I repeat: No one voted for this.
I suggest you go read some comments on some newspaper sites. I think you'll find a lot of people voted for this and are still all for no deal.
They voted for no deal. We’re not going to get no deal as there is no such thing. Whatever we end up with will not have been voted for by anyone.
Here’s a mad idea… how about it not being, for a change?
Interesting comment given your opposition to any politician or commentator who actually wants to change things.
Has anybody noticed that the EU is kinda proposing extending the TP informally anyway
It was always going to happen for reasons I've already stated. There is too much money at stake on both sides to allow the disruption of trade to happen. At the end of the day January will come with a deal or without, and the nutters will get to say that the roof didn't fall in. All bollocks of course but the facts don't really matter, it's what they're able to sell to the voters. If remainers are waiting for supply chains to collapse to prove their point they'll be very disappointed.
But up until recently no deal wasn't going to happen and wasn't an option how can they have voted for it four years ago?
We’re not going to get no deal as there is no such thing
The common understanding of "no deal" is that no trade and security agreement is signed by the UK and EU to replace the privileges of EU membership. That's a thing and looks like happening as of 31/12.
Matthew Parris has written a piece in the Times this morning pointing out that this whole project is being driven by two men, Johnson and Gove, who never believed in any of this in the first place. They only did it to further their careers in what they thought would be a heroic plucky failure.
Apparently, there are literally only a couple of cabinet ministers who don't think this will be a complete disaster too. Rishi Sunak is *ing himself as he knows the hit the economy is about to take.
But so completely has the mainstream Tory party been infected with the UKIP mindset that none of them dare speak up. On doing the numbers there are now over 100 Tory MPs (including the new hardliners Boris himself recruited for the last intake for his own short-term interests) who will vote down ANY deal Johnson brings back
So this is why he's now saying that no deal is inevitable. It's because it is. Even with labours support, he knows he can't get anything through parliament as the Brexit ultras that he courted will vote it down
What a *ing way to run a country
Here’s a mad idea… how about it not being, for a change?
Those presently at the top of the pile probably haven’t had this much proportional wealth since the Victorian era, and that appears to be what they want to take us back too.
Oh the irony. Last person who stood on that platform got shot down by...
*checks notes*
...yup you. And still does just about every day. I thought all that talk about fair societys was just immature naive sixth form common room social bollocks? Or is the penny finally dropping now that your own comfortable existence is under threat and not just a few ignorant racist flat roofed pub inhabitants?
Nice of you to finally get on board, shame it took this long to actually get here.
There was no deal to be voted for four years ago unless I missed something. There was no proposed deal othe rthan "cake and eat it". So people voted for an imaginary deal i.e. no deal. I've had to point out to real life people that that they just voted "out" and that was it; they didn't vote for a deal, they voted "out" in the absence of a deal.
Here’s a mad idea… how about it not being, for a change?
Interesting comment given your opposition to any politician or commentator who actually wants to change things.
Mate, there's a world of difference between what you see as 'changing things' and what sane people do 😛
Oh christ! The sixth formers all here to derail another thread
Do you think we might possibly keep this one on topic instead of another spirit-crushingly tedious Jeremy Corbyn/socialist thwap-fest?
For everyone's benefit FFS!
Over centuries we’ve worked out a form of democracy that protects us against the wilder swings of public opinion and here we are advocating that mob-rule is the only way to make decisions now.
What a load of bollocks. We've never worked out anything to do with democracy. The only thing that has happened throughout history is that the rich and powerful have successfully held on to control of economy and the legislature to protect their interests. Every now and again they come under pressure and are forced to listen to the rabble, and brexit is one of those moments. The problem is not extremes of public opinion, it's that the public aren't listened to and don't have any real power.
Glad I can still have my regular portion of lobster, I was very worried that might be a casualty of a No Deal.
By coincidence (or not) lobster is readily available (to tourists at least) in Cuba, another isolated island nation. But they have sunshine. And music. And rum.
It’s largely because of people’s apathy that we’re in this ridiculous situation in the first place.
I'm not apathetic, or as the otherjonv might hint at elitist either. Maybe it's because I'm a born worrier I've been / am a paranoid stress-head and have spent years now trying to calm it down for my own health I'm dealing with it better - at least as I post today - that's all. Maybe its about applying how I learned to deal with my Sales role, by not focussing on the big number just taking the correct small steps to get an end maybe, and hey guess what, sometimes I lose deals and have to change my focus/effort.
I've had times, stressing in the Coronavirus thread nearly bring myself to tears in March thinking we are all doomed, and here, but I know living my life with a raging head, high blood pressure and cortisol levels is no good for me or my family. No, I don't want to leave Europe, no, I don't want to even more worse of than the single and reduced income family we already are, yes I'd love a Balearic holiday in August that I can afford, but I can do no more about those things than you now, or at voting time. Be angry by all means, but please don't drive yourself into a worsened health condition by the actions of some cock in Westminster.
Perhaps you could see it as an "ignorance is bliss" attitude, whereas in reality I'm focussing on my immediate world with one eye on some educated reading here and elsewhere filtering out the "what ifs" and "maybes" as well as Daily Mail wind ups for my own good.
When Brexit is unfortunately done, life may not be as we want it for some time, but there are plenty of other independent countries in this world that manage perfectly well. We will too, eventually.
Matthew Parris, writing in a Times article with a headline ‘We’re heading for a true believers’ Brexit’ said: “If you feel the EU has been holding Britain back then no-deal makes sense. But most of the cabinet know that isn’t true
“They don’t believe in it. The tragedy and the ignominy of this cabinet is they don’t even believe in it themselves. They don’t believe in the painless Brexit or the sunlit future they’ve promised to deliver.
“There is something infinitely depressing in the picture of a British cabinet avoiding the eyes of history even as they make it. Shame on the whole damn lot.
Can there be a sadder disgrace than for those in power to pursue a project they know will damage the nation they lead?
waiting for supply chains to collapse
Um… not sure what you make/sell, but attempts by (checks notes) everyone to get stocks of parts and supplies in before the end of year deadline has already collapsed supply chains.
Every now and again they come under pressure and are forced to listen to the rabble
Brexit isn’t a cause of “the rabble”… the public were asked to vote on EU membership because of a battle between two groups of immensely rich capitalists, with differing interests economically and politically to each other. We were asked to take sides (or sit it out and face the consequences). It wasn’t an uprising by the British voters, it was a game played out by public school boys with international backers, at our expense.
I gave up paying attention along time ago, but my interest was peaked when I read we are looking to take over the high seas once more in a hat tip to 1805.
So can someone bring me up to speed, why are we prepared to jeopardise every single aspect of the uk economy simply to protect our fishing waters? Does the uk fishing industry honestly contribute that much to our economy
Or is this entirely a (very misguided) point of principle?
As has been said, not really been paying attention to how this shit show has panned out so there is probably far more to it than this, but thought id check...
I’m not apathetic, or as the otherjonv might hint at elitist either. Maybe it’s because I’m a born worrier I’ve been / am a paranoid stress-head and have spent years now trying to calm it down for my own health I’m dealing with it better – at least as I post today – that’s all.
Very much this. You can't live your life worrying or being unduly angry about stuff you can't control. I learnt this lesson a long time ago after digging myself a very deep and angry hole about the state of the world, in particular about climate change and other related stuff. It didn't achieve much other than making me very depressed and anxious. Now I just look on with bewilderment and some amusement at the stupid and contradictory things we humans do, and brexit is a classic example of that.
Mmmm...military patrols of the seas to chase unarmed fishing boats away...what will that do to the export market for what the UK fishermen actually catch...where will it go, what tariffs will apply....I think someone mentioned that it may be good for increasing stocks in the short-term as the biggest market will have gone.
Can there be a sadder disgrace than for those in power to pursue a project they know will damage the nation they lead?
A good point. We don't have a leadership with the wherewithal or balls to stand up and say "**** the vote, its very bad for the country we are not doing it"
But then 52% of the British public - or likely more - would be moaning about dictatorships.
You know that "why get angry" thing?
Poll tax, Thatcher.
Seemed to work back then. Just a matter of.... timing.
So can someone bring me up to speed, why are we prepared to jeopardise every single aspect of the uk economy simply to protect our fishing waters? Does the uk fishing industry honestly contribute that much to our economy
No one really cares about the fish. It turns out though when we looked at the hand we'd been dealt after deciding to leave our cards included a recipe for Victoria Sponge, a christmas card, used, and one about fish. It's literally the only bargaining chip we have other than pretending we won't buy european stuff anymore.
I really don't get why we want to protect our waters.. We have already ascertained that as a population we don't even like the fish that are caught in it.
I don't think that i have never been so worried in my life, and I've had 50 odd years of one so far. I was a teenager in the 80's and was quite politically active, looking back to that time I never felt as so helpless as I do now.
I work as a sales engineer for a company that has a niche product selling to the rail industry all over the world. There are two other companies that manufacture a similar product to us. Margins on our products are so tight that we barely make 3% on the on the projects, it's all about turnover levels that keeps us in business. Our competitors are Europe based and both have a much lager share of the market.
We have a sister company in India which was originally set up to service the Asian market, but has increasingly been making product for the European market. Initially because capacity issues. During the last two years we have costed everything out of India. The UK cannot compete and I fear after 1st Jan the UK operation will be slowly wound down as more will be made in India. Any no deal tarif will be the last nail..
I might be lucky as I can do my job remotely. I was banking on this as I was hoping to relocate to France with my Wife after the kids have flown the nest in a year or two. After 1st Jan my rights as a european citizen are stripped and the longest I will be able remain in France is 90 days in a 6 month period.
My wife came to the UK 32 years ago, she feels let down. She was let down by my family who voted for this, we hardly speak to my family now. She wants to leave and return to France.
Our anxiety levels are through the roof we are both so angry with it all. Our hopes and dreams are in tatters..
In tatters because a bunch of lies that was sold on a catchy phrase... Reminds me of a Simpsons episode..
So can someone bring me up to speed, why are we prepared to jeopardise every single aspect of the uk economy simply to protect our fishing waters? Does the uk fishing industry honestly contribute that much to our economy
I think the actual figure is 0.01% of the British economy. And that's in a tariff free world where we export to the EU
The Tory party is hell bent on a No Deal Brexit and needs a reason to justify collapsing the talks. Fish is something that, while completely economically irrelevant, gets the gammons whipped up into a frenzy, and gets the French all hot under the coller too. Its the one area that guarantees a handy ruck which you can then blame for everything else.
It has also had the added bonus of Johnson being able to deploy some gunboats for a bit of macho military posturing. And its worked a treat. The gammons are literally delirious with joy. A no-deal Brexit and the Royal Navy patrolling the channel. It's like they've died and gone to heaven
I don’t think that i have never been so worried in my life, and I’ve had 50 odd years of one so far.
You missed the TV ads about how the Royal Observer Corps were going to monitor nuclear explosions when the Russians bombed us. And the weekly testing of the air raid sirens.
And I repeat: No one voted for this.
I suggest you go read some comments on some newspaper sites. I think you’ll find a lot of people voted for this and are still all for no deal.
I'd suggest that many of those who voted 'Leave' back in 2016 did so for a variety of reasons, many prompted by a general feelings of frustration, disenfranchisement and socio-economic FOMO that could probably be traced back to at least the Credit crunch a decade or so earlier, but probably much further back in time...
A lack of foresight and/or historical perspective made a slim majority of people do a rash thing, but what got us to this point is a pervasive and growing culture of never admitting a mistake or acknowledging a lack of understanding...
Those people commenting on click bait articles/FB/YT really didn't vote for this, if anything they were sold the opposite. But the only thing worse than crashing out with no deal, wrecking our economy and international relationships and deepening the divides between "have's and have-not's" is still admitting that you made a mistake and were taken in by a lie...
We're perhaps seeing a similar power-grabbing grift in the process of collapse on the other side of the Atlantic. That might encourage people to think the same could happen over here soon. But I think the sheer stubbornness of those who've been indoctrinated, coupled with aligned media coaching of the necessary doublethink is going to help Bozza and chums nudge no deal over the line...
Our competitors are Europe based and both have a much lager share of the market.
Worry not, after brexit we'll be able to slash wages and worker protections and undercut our EU competitors, and if that doesn't work we can go back to the good old days of protectionist govt subsidies propping up industry, and filling the pockets of monopolist corporate bosses with newly printed money.
The fishing thing is great, particularly as it employs fewer (predominantly EU migrants) than Arcadia and Debenhams. Oh the irony, risking economic ruin for the sake of keeping some migrants employed to catch and process a product we don’t want to eat.
It has also had the added bonus of Johnson being able to deploy some gunboats for a bit of macho military posturing. And its worked a treat. The gammons are literally delirious with joy. A no-deal Brexit and the Royal Navy patrolling the channel. It’s like they’ve died and gone to heaven
The Daily Express "quoted" some admiral or other (or possibly made up a quote) saying how the Navy didn't want to open fire on French fishermen but wouldn't hesitate to protect our fish.
I know this because a Leave-voting friend commented on the article on FB so it found its way into my feed. The comments on there were as you say ^^, fwapping themselves senseless over the thought of good old Blighty mounting a Dunkirk style operation.
🤦
@kryton, @dazh.....
I wish I could be more like you, but right now I can't. I'm not accusing anyone of being better or elitist, just reflecting there are some very worried and indeed angry people right now, and telling us how we shouldn't be because we have no control is 100% correct, and 0% helpful right now. I need to burn some rage off, internalising it is not helpful.
https://www.sagu.edu/thoughthub/the-psychology-of-venting
Those people commenting on click bait articles/FB/YT really didn’t vote for this
They voted to stop EU freedom of movement to stop immigration, they've got that.
They voted to take back control and they are getting that, "no deal" is the inevitable consequence of refusing to be a law taker.
They voted to get back fishing rights, they are getting that.
38% of those polled in November still said Brexit was/is the right decision.
Those 50 odd STWers who said they'd vote out, only two have posted to say they've changed their minds. The rest just don't post and I have no reason to believe they've changed their minds.
I wish I could be more like you, but right now I can’t. I’m not accusing anyone of being better or elitist, just reflecting there are some very worried and indeed angry people right now, and telling us how we shouldn’t be because we have no control is 100% correct, and 0% helpful right now. I need to burn some rage off, internalising it is not helpful.
@theotherjonv - appreciated. We are all different, and as you know from my history I've raged at the tiniest things on here, I'm just lucky I'm in the headspace I am today. On any other day it could be different, just you and binners and others take care of yourselves and your family's.
@kryton, @dazh…..
I wish I could be more like you, but right now I can’t.
Same here. Since Covid hit in March, the service industry I (used to) work in has been in suspended animation. In reality, most of it probably doesn't exist anymore. I've only managed to survive because I've (luckily) changed the nature of my job completely. Do I think that it's sustainable? No. There are many, many industries in the same perilous state, teetering on the abyss.
What these industries need is some form of support. What they're going to get instead is the polar opposite. They're going to get a (completely self-inflicted) full-blown economic crisis which will have the effect of the final bullet administered to the back of the head.
I fully expect to see 5-6 million unemployed by next summer. It's going to be total chaos.
If you like Edukator.
But my point was that it's useless ascribing malevolent intent to Leave supporters four years in the past, they were generally spouting quite different rhetoric at the time, banging on about easy deals money for the NHS and "taking back control" as a sort of abstract concept rather than a practical reality. Most didn't really think they'd win. I just don't think the majority had processed the downsides into likely outcomes at all...
Four years on, they're well drilled by the DM and can paraphrase Gove like nobody's business and, yeah sure this was the plan all along and they're fine with it. But deep down we all know they didn't process the obvious consequences and narcissistic tendencies mean they can't admit that...
Just for balance, I'm hoping for an initial no deal tbh, it's the only option that allows everyone a bit of win.
Time for real change👍
Anyone see the story that the government might have underestimated the number of hk nationals that are likely to come here in the next few years.
the brexies are going to blow when they find out there might be 600k Chinese people turning up
I think it is awesome
Just for balance, I’m hoping for an initial no deal tbh, it’s the only option that allows everyone a bit of win.
Care to specify how anyone other than hedge fund managers and currency speculators 'win' from Brexit?
Cookeaa, surely the responsibility goes to the know-it-alls not the know-nothings?
I wonder if we can organise a reciprocal exchange and send the most right wing brexit supporters back over to HK.
surely the responsibility goes to the know-it-alls not the know-nothings
Only if the know it alls didn't inform the shit for brains....
The first "out" post on the original Brexit thread over four years ago:
just5minutes
Free MemberI’ll vote for “out”.
Europe is in the midst of the worst crisis for 70 years and its leaders have clearly still not recognised the need for change.
Having to rely on leaders of countries that are smaller than the population of London for permission to effectively manage migration to our own country is ridiculous, as is the failure of policy makers in Europe to deal decisively with the economic malaise that many countries still find themselves in.
Switzerland has more reciprocal free trade agreements than the EU, and a majority of Britain’s trade is outside the EU now. Europe must reform and reform quickly but sees no need to. It’s better to be on the outside and focus on maintain trading than inside a movement which is clearly focussed on increasing fiscal, monetary and political union as a goal in its own right.
Two issues are overhyped:
1. Britons still have to show passports when travelling to Europe – “free movement” is not there for us anyway.
2. The german and french economies will still need to sell cars etc. to us. It’s as much in their interests for trade to be maintained as it is for ours – and countries already outside the EU have little difficulty trading with it.
Posted 4 years ago
Paraphrosed: anti-immigration, take back control, we trade more with the rest of the world and other countries trade with Europe anyhow, we don't need freedom of movement because we don't have it now, they need to sell us cars.
I and others spent a few minutes a day on this forum demostrating the falsehoods posted by Jamba, Chewkw and co. but only two of the original leavers changed their minds. The rest are presumably still happy with their decision as are 38% of those polled in November.
