My ire is directed at everyone who said ‘Right, that’s it. 50%+1 is enough to burn everything to the ground and work it out later and if you disagree you hate democracy’
Don't be under the mistaken belief that was an original concept, 50% +1 was the criteria in 2014 when I was told I was being ridiculous for suggesting such a result would be contentious at best and grounds for rioting at worst.
As one of my French colleagues said, “if this was happening in my country, we’d be out on the streets rioting”. Maybe they had the right idea with la revolution.
There is only one leave voter that I know for whom I say fair enough and can respect his choice. He is a lifelong supporter of Scottish independence, not a loudmouthed noisy one, but a thoughtful and very decent chap. He voted leave as he believed it would increase the likelihood of Scottish independence. He doesn’t dislike the EU at all, and thinks an independent Scotland will rejoin.
Give us some dates.
On here, in the last month or so, I can think of at least 4 examples.
Examples of “back in the day”, when people helped each other more? It’s nonsense. People today help each other as much as ever, we just ALSO have (but are steadily dismantling) complex systems that offer additional support, and aren’t limited to small groups (families, neighbourhoods, forums, whatever). Individuals have always supported each other… but help between neighbourhoods, regions, nations, continents… that needs organisations, rules, systems, staffing to work. Remove those shared support systems, and we can not replace that with acts of individual smaller scale offers of support, like we did “back in the day”, because we never stopped doing that… losing those bigger shared methods of cooperation and support is a lose lose situation.
teesoo
Full MemberAs one of my French colleagues said, “if this was happening in my country, we’d be out on the streets rioting”.
Honestly, that's a huge part of our problem. I mean, look at the last year. WE have a government that's absolutely failed at its job. Not just on brexit, most obviously on covid which they've been disastrous at. The absolute worst thing they might face, is getting voted out of office in 4 years. O noes! But even then, there's a good chance they won't. There are no meaningful consequences at all, for them at least, though there are consequences for 63000 dead people, consequences for the millions of people that'll be unemployed, consequences for small businesses and people on benefits and everyone except for the people that did it. And of course, we should blame other individuals, never the government- traditionally everything is the fault of the Other- the foreigner, the EU, the communist- but this last few years has proved you don't even need an Other, people can be convinced to blame other people who're exactly the same as them and are doing pretty much the same as them.
And in the meantime... Any sort of civil disobedience is Wanton Criminality and to be crushed, any protest that behaves exactly as they're told is completely ignorable and probably all just students and the unemployed, the law's been changed to allow police to commit crimes with trivial cause to allow more agent provocateur and dodgy intrusion into public politics, you need a stronger mandate to strike than you do to become prime minister... And voting, like I mentioned up the page, leaves a party with 41% of the vote acting as if they have a true crushing majority and opposition parties with 41% of the vote left as spectators.
It is imo a bigger problem than brexit, or covid, because it's the hardware that all those things run on.
On here, in the last month or so, I can think of at least 4 examples.
(Aside from the fact that you were talking about your grandparents 'back in the day' so this is a non-sequitur,)
No you can't.
I mean, maybe you can, but if you're trying to prove a point with zero evidence or references to back up that point then it requires equally no evidence to dismiss out of hand as nonsense.
The majority of my work colleagues are red top/Mail readers and voted leave - this is despite being in automotive supply chain manufacturing in Lancashire with European raw materials and mainly for export. A few of them are bleating that it isn't now what they voted for. Really????!!!!!
At least being in engineering I'll be the last one out after unbolting everything and shipping it to Europe.
Monbiot describing Brexit as the ‘beach-head’ in ‘capitalism’s civil war’
... but capturing a country like the UK, without the need for a military coup? That’s a much bigger prize.
Another Marina Hyde bullseye.
I remember an interview with the guy that first coined the name/phrase "Brexit" in a paper he wrote a few years before the referendum.
He said that he saw Brexit as a fight for the counties soul effectively, between a Welfare State and a free market economy.
I think he was/is spot on. We are going to witness the dismantling of the NHS and midi social care and all the safe guards "we" have taken for granted since the end of the second World war. Austerity was a perfect training ground to prep for it too...
I find it chilling and I honestly feel alien on my own country. Something I've never felt in my entire life.
Three pages in a day to catch up on, you have all been busy. And a refreshingly perceptive bunch you all are. Keep up the good work, the polls are tipping in your favour:
Of the 50 or so STWers who said they'd vote out there have been a couple of converts and the rest don't come anywhere near this thread, or anywhere near the chat forum for the most part.
You just need someone to lead a revolution now. Starmer won't, any volunteers here ?
(Aside from the fact that you were talking about your grandparents ‘back in the day’ so this is a non-sequitu
I was asked for dates. Those were the most recent dates that came to mind. The others would be meaningless to anyone who wasn't there because they would not be 'evidence' if you don't accept that it happened without you witnessing it.
But since you are telling me I can't you've won the argument. Congrats. I guess the fact that I actually can doesn't count as evidence. Guess you never took logic, since proving the absence of sometime is impossible
Do you genuinely believe we as good at taking care of each other as we were? Given the threads on here about neighbours? Most people would struggle to name their neighbours, never mind know when they need food, clothes, a sympathetic ear. We've left that to social services. Most people don't even pick up their own litter, never mind anyone elses.
If what comes out of this is that we depend less on government and more on our community and each other, it won't be nearly as crap as it otherwise would.
We’ve left that to social services.
I think you need to reach out to your neighbours. One of mine needed social care, not just the kindness of the immediate community, in recent years, but that’s dementia for you. Unfortunately she died recently, and 3 vehicles of trained staff arrived to try and help her in her dying hours… anyway, go and talk to your neighbours (at a safe distance). Having functional shared care and support systems has never, and will never, replace looking after each other… and removing them will not result in the return of some mythical time when we were more caring and supportive to those around us. Of course, if you can’t see this ongoing community kindness and help that goes on all the time… and always has… ask yourself if it’s just because that’s how you lead your own life.
On our street the kids play out together and the parents make each other cups of tea and coffee to chat while they do.
Not so much over the last 8 months of course.
But I was still lending tools to the guy 2 doors down last week and he had another offer from the other end of the street but it wasn’t quite the right tool.
Folk can and do still interact and look after each other.
Oh and just for a laugh, that’s not a born and bred, working class, salt of the earth type street I’m describing. This is a very middle class street where folk are from a variety of countries never mind counties.
And yes it’s a lovely place to live.
I'm not sure if anyone else is having the same issues but anything we order from outside UK has gone from a couple of days delivery time to weeks.
Our research institute is effectively shut down now, a lot of essential reagents from Switzerland & Germany are simply impossible to get.
With the pressures of Covid on research & funding already this is the last thing we need.
think you need to reach out to your neighbours.
I think would need to know about my relationship with my neighbours before you advice me on that. I know all of them btw.
One of mine needed social care, not just the kindness of the immediate community, in recent years, but that’s dementia for y
I had a relative who suffered from that for years. Her famiky took care of her to her last
Having functional shared care and support systems has never, and will never, replace looking after each other… and removing them will not result in the return of some mythical time when we were more caring and supportive to those around us.
Never said it would. Although you are wrong about that. The research has been done for you if you care to look.
you can’t see this ongoing community kindness and help that goes on all the time… and always has… ask yourself if it’s just because that’s how you lead your own life.
My community is great thanks, because we all contribute.
Again the research has been done on this and it disagrees with everything you say. It's all out there if you care to look. For various reasons we have come to rely on formal organisations be they govt or charity, because families and communities don't do the things they used to, for all sorts of reasons.
If you want 'evidence' go read the research.
If anything good comes out of this it will be that we do more for each other, unfortunately because we have to.
It’s all out there if you care to look.
So… what are the dates you want us to look to compare now to? Let’s start with that.
When was this rosey time when we all looked out for each other more?
(Even though in your own experience it seems we are doing pretty well now).
If anything good comes out of this it will be that we do more for each other, unfortunately because we have to.
I'm really not sure that being dependent on your neighbours because brexit has caused state funded social care to collapse, really counts as a win
I’m really not sure that being dependent on your neighbours because brexit has caused state funded social care to collapse, really counts as a win
File that alongside
He voted leave as he believed it would increase the likelihood of Scottish independence.
I mean, he wasn't wrong but there's something decidedly machiavellian about throwing 61 million people under the bus just to advance your cause. Great if we go Indy and rejoin. Not so great for everyone else or those Scots caught as collateral damage.
I was asked for dates. Those were the most recent dates that came to mind.
You were remeniscing about some glorious past, you were asked "when?" and you replied "four days ago." This makes no sense.
The others would be meaningless to anyone who wasn’t there because they would not be ‘evidence’ if you don’t accept that it happened without you witnessing it.
Well, no, you just need to put some meat on your point beyond "it all used to be better."
I guess the fact that I actually can doesn’t count as evidence.
Of course it counts. Off you go, fill your boots. You've got a captive audience.
Guess you never took logic, since proving the absence of sometime is impossible
No-one is asking you to prove the absence of anything, what are you on about?
Do you genuinely believe we as good at taking care of each other as we were?
Do you genuinely believe we are worse at taking care of each other than we were?
Given the threads on here about neighbours? Most people would struggle to name their neighbours
Oh, I think I might know this one. Is it because they're brown?
I can name my neighbours on both sides and I moved in here a fortnight ago.
I can name everyone on my street and a few more on the periphery for bonus points.
If you want ‘evidence’ go read the research.
Ah “do your own research”
You just need someone to lead a revolution now. Starmer won’t, any volunteers here ?
Too late, it has to happen to prove the stupidity of itself. Only then can the corrosive hubris be pushed back with any permanency.
While I'm no brexiteer I am feeling a bit better about life today. uncertainty is the killer. Being fairly certain that life just got a little harder actually feels better than yesterday where it was on a knife edge. I appreciate its not 100% set yet but we'll see.
No deal is of course only temporary. We'll want a deal soon enough and so will the EU when the fishermen start burning down french government buildings, so we just need to get through this period of nonsense for a while. Successive governments have (because you know they're sovrin' n all) made terrible decisions over and over again. History will just remember this group as especially bad at, well, everything.
Life is just a game of getting from birth to death as least badly as possible as I see it, the game just got a little tougher for a few years, but you'll all make it through I'm sure, so don't let it get you down too much!
While that’s all very admirable and philosophical, we need to bear in mind one critical thing
We are inflicting this on ourselves
For absolutely no good reason that I can see.
More importantly, it’s the poorest and most vulnerable in society, those who can least afford it, who are about to be hit hardest. They’re going to be the ones made to pay the price for some nebulous bullshit about sovereignty.
All while those driving this lunacy will be insulated from any of its effects by their privilege and wealth. A lot of them will ‘prosper mightily’ from investment positions already cynically taken
And that makes me really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really ****ing angry!!
And that makes me really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really ****ing angry!!
And does that help?
But binners it’s always - in general - been that way since the dawn of time. You have those at the top, and those at the bottom. In the middle you have those trying to go from the bottom to the top, and sometimes yet rarely the other way around.
Unwanted Employees get fired, bosses get higher status and more money, those I the middle work hard to keep the status quo with more work or higher targets to achieve. Being at Work is my analogy for Brexit - someone else make a decision which furthers their cause but makes life more difficult or catastrophic for someone else. I take Ben Pinnicks view in the main these days, life’s there to crack on with, get through each day the best you can. Living in a constant world of self induced anger and stress will do nothing but depress and harm you.
Put that energy into improving what you have not fighting against the (tide) things you can’t change individually. When voting day comes we’ll have our time.
You gov survey just asked me if I'd support an extension to the transition period or not and also who would i hold responsible if no deal was made government or eu?
Is the government getting twitchy and considering extending but checking public opinion 1st?
All through this pandemic there have been you gov questions asked about do you support a lockdown, masks, should uni students be kept at uni etc just before the government decides something new.
Anyone else do these surveys? I started about a year ago as i was sick of reading about survey results saying this or that about Brexit and wanted my opinion heard.
The navy is readying four ships - gunboat diplomacy springs to mind. It just seems to get more bizarre by the minute.
I’m not sure if anyone else is having the same issues but anything we order from outside UK has gone from a couple of days delivery time to weeks.
@kimbers that may be covid related, nowhere near as many passenger flights flying, up to 80% of these flights hold space is sold for cargo.
The navy is readying four ships
And the target audience is lapping it up...
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Has anybody noticed that the EU is kinda proposing extending the TP informally anyway - through a series smaller targeted initiatives e.g. letting UK truck drivers in without the permits for another six months, and something Mr Whittingdale said at a conference on Monday about the data adequacy assessment;
“To avoid a cliff edge, negotiators in London and Brussels are working on an interim solution. One option on the table is to temporarily wrap data flows up into the wider trade deal — for a period no longer than six months — to allow more time to make the adequacy assessment, according to one official close to the talks.”
They really are running rings around the UK Gov team - they can put in place small targeted measures to ease the impact of no trade deal arrangements on 1 January in their own territory. These are just two I have seen spoken about publically - I haven't got around to reading the EU mitigation plan yet (nest week)
Meanwhile UK customs are considering a beta test of a new customs IT system, less than two weeks before xmas.
But binners it’s always – in general – been that way since the dawn of time.
Here's a mad idea... how about it not being, for a change?
Those presently at the top of the pile probably haven't had this much proportional wealth since the Victorian era, and that appears to be what they want to take us back too.
life’s there to crack on with, get through each day the best you can.
The period since the start of lockdown has marked the greatest period of change (and creativity) in my whole life.
Living in a constant world of self-induced anger and stress will do nothing but depress and harm you
I'm sorry but as I look on this heist by an elite that will impoverish us all, literally and metaphorically, then I can't be anything but angry and depressed. Not least because it is all so easily avoidable and utterly and needlessly destructive
It's largely because of people's apathy that we're in this ridiculous situation in the first place.
@myti the yougov polls have nothing to do with Govt, they're just opinion pollsters who sell stats for newspaper headlines etc.
To the barricades Binners!
100% Binners.
They know they can do whatever they want, and apart from the odd awkward PMQT or protest outside parliament, in a few days it'll be a shrug of the shoulders.
Mustn't grumble.
Living in a constant world of self-induced anger and stress will do nothing but depress and harm you
Is it only me that sees responses like this and find them vaguely condescending. In the same way that you wouldn't look at someone who's broken a leg and tell them to turn their pain receptors down so it doesn't hurt as much, this isn't a 'rational' choice to be angry, but it's an entirely normal and expected one. It's like a bereavement, a major wronging, where anger is perfectly normal. Unlike a beareavement - every week there a chance to mitigate the loss (even reverse it) but we keep doubling down over and over again. My broken leg isn't feeling any better because every week someone kicks it again.
So great if you're wired in a way that enables you to 'deal with it' better than others. I know my anger won't do any good but right now I can't just dial it down and you telling me to makes me angrier still....because it could be dialled down if only those in charge weren't such a bunch of self serving ****ing ****s that they don't give a shit about the impact on the rest of us (even those that wanted it)
So I appreciate the advice and know it's well intentioned, but I'm ****ing livid right now and I'm going to stay livid for a while yet. And I'll fight anyone that tells me I can't be or shouldn't be 😉
100% theotherjonv, exactly how I feel, I'm also fuming at bigoted idiots that voted for this and then voted for Boris, I can tell you now were not all in this together, you can reap what you sowed because the coming shitstorm is going to hit many of the low paid Brexiteers the hardest (although of course it will still be someone else's fault and that makes me angrier still).
Is it only me that sees responses like this and find them vaguely condescending.
Absolutely not just you - it's a denial of your right to your feelings and thoughts.
@kimbers that may be covid related, nowhere near as many passenger flights flying, up to 80% of these flights hold space is sold for cargo.
Quite Possibly
Things have been slower but we've been back in work since September & it just seems to have all ground to a halt in the last 2 weeks
I'll bet the navy are chuffed to bits with their new role.
They're being made to look ridiculous and if they do actually have to do any policing they will end up being the poster boys for a preposterous little shitass country threatening fishermen with heavy weaponry. It is going to look brilliant in the world media.
This is where lies, bullshit, bluster, bluff and pumped up petty nationalism gets you...
For me it's the fact that we've gone from best deal ever to no deal and dreadful consequences and people are acting as if this is what they wanted all along.
It’s all right everyone! The German car makers have turned up!
https://twitter.com/ukvolkswagen/status/1336276412752343040?s=21
Oh!
