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Well what a giant waste of time and money that was/is. I can’t believe they had the cheek to claim they’ve delivered everything they promised during the referendum campaign – that £350m a week extra for the NHS still coming is it?
I wouldnt ask if I were you; it's the easiest one in the world to give a politicians answer to... "we have increased spending more than any government in the last x years, we have hired x number new nurses and sacked x number middle managers, opened x number new hospitals etc" and the public will believe every word of it. They can say they've spent a billion extra a year if they want and it can go unchallenged because that is how soundbite politics, right wing media and parliamentary privilege that allows MPs to lie to the public unchallenged works.
£350M for the NHS, I believe it's still coming. It just goes directly to Tory chums under the guise of PPE procurement contracts.
it can go unchallenged because that is how soundbite politics, right wing media and parliamentary privilege that allows MPs to lie to the public unchallenged works.
Then we - me, you, everyone who genuinely cares enough - need to start challenging it.
Easy fix, for a reasonable wage I'll head into London once a week and smack them round the head with that fancy stick they use to open parliament. A few weeks of that and the proper POS will either leave or start being decent human beings
Based on what I've read so far, there's not a single aspect of the deal that's better than what we had before.
Well ****ing done Brexiteers 🙁
better than what we had before
That ship sailed long ago.
We had a better deal than everyone else before.
Looks like if you want to take advantage of Erasmus, send your kids to Queens or somewhere else in NI.
Apart from something to do with fish, do we actually gain anything from this deal?
Then we – me, you, everyone who genuinely cares enough – need to start challenging it.
Oh I agree, I'm not sure how though. Maybe we need to play them at their own game.
Easy fix, for a reasonable wage I’ll head into London once a week and smack them round the head with that fancy stick they use to open parliament. A few weeks of that and the proper POS will either leave or start being decent human beings
Can we at least take turns?
We’ve agreed to follow EU trade and business rules and standards.. have given up our role in setting those rules... we can stop EU types coming here to work.... they can stop UK types going there to work... some deal on fish.... we’ve given up EHIC and Erasmus and services access to EU markets... but we got duty free allowances and blue passports
I think that’s it. What did I miss?
There's shit loads of new paperwork to import and export things.
We had a better deal than everyone else before.
Yes
We had a better deal than everyone else before.
Yes
And now we have a worse deal.
Yay.
Absolutely gutted that we have withdrawn from Erasmus. It gave me one of the best years of my life in Spain and now future languages graduates will be lumbered with some half baked replacement that the Government will claim as world beating. ****ers.
The government won't have been wanting to foster a cohort of people who see themselves as European or otherwise have a personal affection and appreciation of Europe. In time, such people will work to bring the UK closer to Europe.
I don't know what subjects are popular in Erasmus, but knowing this gov and "the programme will incorporate opportunities which reflect the government’s promise to level up the country" I doubt there will be much room for languages and arts.
I give up.
I don’t know what subjects are popular in Erasmus
I did electrical engineering at Strathclyde and Erasmus at Pavia near Milan. We had quite a few doing it.
I’m assuming it’ll take until January 4th to get the Rejoin campaign properly up and running.
Erasmus "replacement" predictably is no such thing- the entire point of Erasmus, literally the reason it works, is that it's widespread and simple and reciprocal. It doesn't make transfers possible, there's loads of ways to study abroad- it makes them easy. And that's massive, because any student can do a study abroad but most don't because it's so stressful- even the idea is stressful, but then finding places etc is work, without Erasmus.
So, anything that tries to fill that hole, but isn't as universal and simple, is a failure before it's even started, it misses the core benefit. That includes being an Erasmus Partner- my old place used to have a constant flow of kids to Switzerland every year, you know how many they've had since 2014 when Switzerland got kicked out of full Erasmus? Not one.
And what we're talking about now, "Turing", isn't even as good as what the Swiss have- the reason we're not going to be an Erasmus partner is that we've refused to spend the few million quid they do every year in order to still get access. Our way is third best,it's not even the Swiss's attempt to reduce the damage. It'll reduce our kids' opportunities and it'll lose all of the benefits of having european kids studying here. And if they deliver on the promises- you never know, it might happen- it'll cost more than being an Erasmus Partner would have, but apparently it's better to pour money down the drain than share it to the EU in partnership
And, ya know, everyone who's been involved in this from the word go-from everyone that said losing Erasmus would be a tragedy, to everyone that's claimed we can copy it, to the Prime Minster who said less than a year ago that there was no threat to our membership at all- has known all this.
Very sad to lose Erasmus, how unfair to those kids who weren't old enough to vote that now have fewer opportunities (not the only thing that'll impact them of course)
If rejoining in the future is ever an option, it'll be an easy vote winner for Labour to capture the student vote
Erasmus (also known as Orgasmus)aka taxpayer paid holiday.
baboonz
Erasmus (also known as Orgasmus)aka taxpayer paid holiday.
Not when I did it in 1990. Must have changed by the time you did it (I am assuming you have first hand knowledge).
Boris Johnson is hailing as a victory ‘his’ deal which looks to be exactly the same as Theresa Mays deal, the one that he resigned over and voted against two years ago, saying it would be a disaster for the UK?
I’m not missing anything here am I?
May couldn’t really carry it off as well as Boris thou 🙂
Apart from something to do with fish, do we actually gain anything from this deal?
I’ll give you my opinion as a relative political Neanderthal; We’ve gained independence as a sovereign country from Europe, can start to look forward to not being a go to and free foreign welfare state yet we have a pretty decent set of trade tariffs or not for our business.
Being in Sales the statements made yesterday are true - no one ever gets what they want in a negotiation. Now is about discovering what’s been given away -Erasmus, fish and what else... in those negotiations.
Of course, there are systematic changes to make to get all that up and running, not withstanding likely a few internal and external arguments along the way. Perhaps use the lauded Canada analogy; it’s bloody nice place to go with a country of decent people but you cannot go there and take the piss.
No one will ever be happy with this, as they weren’t when we went in (it took decades for some people to see EU membership as a good thing) yet some of those people now own villas on the Costa’s. We’ll get by, we’ll adapt, and we’ll trade. Just differently, like lots of other independent countries. I think the Divorce analogy is a good one; it’s not the end of the world just two places doing things differently together yet having a little more freedom at home, and there’s always an initial period of disruption followed by negotiations along the way.
Erasmus (also known as Orgasmus)aka taxpayer paid holiday.
Erasmus and Erasmus+ are educational and cultural exchanges. It's a programme designed to strengthen European relations, expand horizons and raise education attainment.
It is not, as many are reporting, merely a university programme.
There are summer camps, school exchanges, teacher exchanges and professional learning groups, academic exchanges, academic co-operation and youth work co-operation.
This then is why it's been culled - our Brexiteer's don't want us to be European or strengthen relations. They're ideologically opposed to it.
I've personally taken part in 5 over 25 years and manage staff leading three at the moment, we had hoped for two more in the spring.
I've benefitted from learning about outdoor learning across Europe, co-designed climate emergency studies at secondary school, co-developed long term Early Years outdoor programmes, designed better school grounds and had well over 500 UK teachers learn from colleagues across Europe through exchanges, collaboration or one-off events.
Yes, we got to travel. I've been to Italy, Sweden, Estonia, Slovakia, Germany and France. I've worked alongside colleagues from those countries and Denmark, Spain, Malta, Greece, Poland, Portugal and Spain. I've eaten Pizza in Florence, swum in an Estonian big, stood on a dormant volcano in Slovakia and fished in Sweden. I took teachers from across Europe up our Scottish winter hills and to London to showcase the UK. I learned about communities and culture across Europe. I've made lifelong friends through it - and seen cultures and places in Europe I had no idea existed. Yes, Erasmus paid for all of this.
Imo, Remain campaign should have sent half the UK on an Erasmus+ and we would have had overwhelming support to remain.
Turing won't be a patch on it...
I know I said I wouldn't but...
baboonz
Erasmus (also known as Orgasmus)aka taxpayer paid holiday.
igm
Not when I did it in 1990. Must have changed by the time you did it (I am assuming you have first hand knowledge).
That put-down will keep me chuckling all through today and tomorrow. 🤣
Thanks igm, but thank you so much more baboonz for teeing yourself up. The gifts that keep on giving.
And I think we all know the answer to the first hand experience question...🤣
We’ve gained independence as a sovereign country from Europe, can start to look forward to not being a go to and free foreign welfare state
Latest figures I can find
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-facts/how-many-eu-migrants-claim-benefits-in-the-uk/
About 0.17% of the UK population are EU migrants claiming benefits. Hardly the horror show the tabloid rags would lead you to believe
You need to also add non EU migrants claiming benefits for the full picture. I wasn’t claiming it was a massive disaster, but at least now the practise will hopefully be oriented to the genuinely needy rather than an open border free for all.
We’ll get by, we’ll adapt
Whatever we do to 'adapt' we will definitely have to pay a load of people tomoush paper around, paper that has zero economic benefit. Sonour productivity, already low, will be permanently below what it otherwise would be.
at least now the practise will hopefully be oriented to the genuinely needy rather than an open border free for all.
Lol, you what? Tories helping the genuinely needy? What ****ing planet are you on?
And anyway, if an EU person has no job, aren't they genuinely needy? Or don't their problems count cos they were born somewhere else?
Or are you suggesting that people came here just to get benefits with no intention of working?
So migrants aren't 'genuinely needy'?. Season of goodwill right enough.
You need to also add non EU migrants claiming benefits for the full picture
What is the title of your ‘picture?’*
*And how does/did it relate to EU membership?
Even on Christmas Day, never underestimate STW’s ability to have an argument.
Enjoy, ttfn.
yet some of those people now own villas on the Costa’s.
My guess is some of those without substantial independent wealth might be forced to return.
Like the worst Christmas presents, the lustre will have worn off by new year and we will be looking for the receipt.
Was. It. Really. Worth. It?
That put-down will keep me chuckling all through today and tomorrow. 🤣
Good on ya and merry Xmas.
Not when I did it in 1990. Must have changed by the time you did it (I am assuming you have first hand knowledge).
Lol I wasn’t even born then. I actually grew up in a Spanish town that was the target of a lot of Erasmus students and it’s students also went abroad. I never participated in Erasmus myself.
it is not, as many are reporting, merely a university programme.
I didn’t know this. Thanks for the lengthy explanation.
On another note, is the UK also out of the research collaboration programme (horizon 2020 and so on?)
So - professional registrations... Can I, or can I not, practice in the EU?
Doesn't seem very clear.
Even on Christmas Day, never underestimate STW’s ability to have an argument.
Enjoy, ttfn.
Here’s a hat for you and anyone who dared respond to your biglong Xmas Day post. 🥳
Non eu migrants are not entitled to benefits until they have been here and paying taxes for a qualifying period. Brexit makes no difference to this group
yet some of those people now own villas on the Costa’s.
My guess is some of those without substantial independent wealth might be forced to return.
They will no longer be able to live there or any EU country for more than 90 days and cannot return within a 6 month period, unless they have residency.
There are three ways to gain residency. 1, Be born or have a parent born in a EU country (some countries account for grandparents) 2. Have a job or prove you can support yourself in said country 3. Become naturalised (If we are talking about Spain, the spanish don't accept dual nationality so you'd have to give up your british citizenship)
I know of a dozen families having to return to the UK because they don't any of those things. Most ran gite businesses and this year their income has been decimated.
Quite a fair/harsh summary by BBC here
BBC News - What Boris Johnson's mistake tells us about our future
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55442982
Was. It. Really. Worth. It?
Anyone who honestly cares what the answer to that is, already knows what it is.
open border free for all
We haven’t had such a thing for over a hundred years now. Gaining things we never lost, and losing things we never realised we had… Brexit is just the fulfilment of the wishes of the ignorant by self serving con men and women. Mrry Chrrstmssss!
I know of a dozen families having to return to the UK
They should have been richer. Living where you want, learning where you want, doing what you want… these are, from the end of the month, once again the preserve of the elite, who persuaded us to give up such opportunities for ourselves. Hpppyy Nwww Yrrr!
The thinnest of thin deals - dressed up and presented as a big win.
Should start seeing some intelligent analyses of the contents over the next few days.
There's an article by David Gauke in the Guardian Opinion online which I can't link to but is well worth reading.
I wonder whether Teresa May will say anything as this deal is demonstrably worse than the one which she tabled.
I can't wait to 'prosper mightily'; thanks johnson - for nothing.
Ouch. When the BBC are being anti-Brexit of anti-BoJo then the deal must be pretty bad...
Seems to me even if it’s a good deal, the EU sell us goods, and we sell them services, and this deal only covers goods.
Meanwhile, we are about to impose an immigration policy (voted for by the poorest) that essentially means we can bring in affluent to rich immigrants, but lie paid poor folks jobs will be done by indigenous UK types. The poor voting against social mobility and for remaining poor.
I see social unrest.
Merry Christmas.
PS BoJo’s cronies will “prosper mightily” - guaranteed
So – professional registrations… Can I, or can I not, practice in the EU?
From the guardian:
Professional qualifications
There will be no more automatic recognition for doctors, nurses, architects, dentists, pharmacists, vets, engineers. They will now have to seek recognition in the member state they wish to practise in.
Even on Christmas Day, never underestimate STW’s ability to have an argument.
So, you come on here spouting bollocks but then "oh please don't call me out on it, it's Christmas"
I support goodwill to all 365 days a year.
The thinnest of thin deals – dressed up and presented as a big win.
Should start seeing some intelligent analyses of the contents over the next few days.
Yep, just enough to not have the wheels fall completely off and to be able to tick the checkbox Brexit done and quickly move it from front stage to a background task that trundles along for many more years.
And a Merry Brexitmas to you all 🙂
spouting bollocks
Or, my opinion. Maybe your opinion is bollocks to me, what happened to put you in a bad mood, someone piss on your sprouts?
“oh please don’t call me out on it, it’s Christmas”
Very much your assumption molgrips, I didn't post that as you well know.
Or, my opinion. Maybe your opinion is bollocks to me, what happened to put you in a bad mood, someone piss on your sprouts?
What happened is someone told me not to say anything they didn't like because it's Christmas 😉
But I'm not in a bad mood. But I'll always challenge.
Looks like the fish industry isn't happy with it. Don't think they realised they were being used as a pointless pawn in a gam of chess.
Very interesting to see what holes appear, especially as the EU are already examining the details while our lot gorge themselves on Xmas food for a few days in self-congratulations.
Has to be ratified by both sets of parliaments yet
someone piss on your sprouts?
That'll only improve the taste.
I see social unrest.
I see the imbeciles who voted for Brexit reaping what they sow.
It's surely what was expected, if anything it's sounding slightly better than expected. A free trade deal covering pretty much all UK/EU origin goods without quotas (for now) in exchange for some concessions over fishing and rule taking and some tweaks around the edges for things like car batteries to flex the UK origin a bit further.
I can't see any problems ratifying it, seems like they spent 4 1/2 years going round in circles
On another note, is the UK also out of the research collaboration programme (horizon 2020 and so on?)
Re erasmus, we've had students come & go (cancer research lab) and they've always been outstanding
A real loss to UK science to be excluded
The anti-expert nature of brexit was always going to see UK science & engineering be a secondary consideration
Likewise Horizon 2020 replacement
The door is open for us to take part but we will have to pay in as associate members and can see that being a casualty of our jingoistic MPs & press, they'll need a new target to attack.
Interestingly we are staying in Euratom, which is overseen by dreaded ECJ
Likewise Horizon 2020 replacement
The door is open for us to take part but we will have to pay in as associate members and can see that being a casualty of our jingoistic MPs & press, they’ll need a new target to attack.
Interestingly we are staying in Euratom, which is overseen by dreaded ECJ
Thanks. I suspect they will continue to participate once this is sorted, it’s not just universities who participate in those projects (as you probably know), its big companies and smes. Whilst the Erasmus touches on the immigration topic, I can’t think of any barrier (other than money) that would prevent uk from rejoining this programme.
An insightful talk from Prof Dorling (Uni of Oxford)
Brexit and the End of the British Empire
Well, we can "celebrate" the deal just not being as bad as no deal and that's about it. The only trade deal in history to make trading more difficult. There is no victory in this. The loss of rights and opportunities is utterly depressing and will only be felt more as the years go on.
This is just the start anyway, the government will constantly need to be at war with someone or something. That focus will be partly diverted to our own people now.
Those on benefits (even if working), the disabled, unions, the Scottish (I'm definitely not joking here)..... Anything to unify and coalesce a hatred... Someone to blame for the economic and social turmoil to come.
We are diminished and will live to see the end of the United Kingdom.
...more importantly, how will this Brexit deal affect the prices for an EU citizens wanting to satisfy his Nitto fetish via Planet X? 🤭 I've had some trouble understanding this. All they speak of is fish.
can’t think of any barrier (other than money) that would prevent uk from rejoining this programme
Brexit & the brexiteers has proved that there's not really any logical proposition that can't be rejected on the basis of jingoism & exceptionalism
, how will this Brexit deal affect the prices for an EU citizens wanting to satisfy his Nitto fetish via Planet X?
Roughly 5% more for parts, 15% probably if you're buying a whole bike, and you'll likely have to do the work of paying vat/duty yourself.
All they speak of is fish.
Fish will be the UK currency. Currently 1 fish buys a euro.
I actually grew up in a Spanish town that was the target of a lot of Erasmus students
I find the use of the word 'target' interesting.
Is there an unconscious bias against 'outsiders' in the thinking here?
Whatever, Johnson's deal is a damaging crock of shit that just about stops this country imploding by the end of January.
Basically, what is going to happen next is a slow, piece by piece rejoining of the EU with two certainties.
Firstly, the end point is nowhere near as good a 'deal' as we had before.
Secondly, it will be as slow as possible to keep the gammony loons from actually starting a civil war.
Context is everything, though. So how long we continue to unnecessarily **** ourselves over is very much open for debate.
What a total ****ing stupid waste of time and energy.
Bollocks to Brexit.
The anti-expert nature of brexit
Leavers don't like intellect.
Roughly 5% more for parts, 15% probably if you’re buying a whole bike, and you’ll likely have to do the work of paying vat/duty yourself.
I might be able to live with this. Still better than paying thrice the price + shipping and taxes from Rivendell.
Fish will be the UK currency. Currently 1 fish buys a euro.
I will pay in Swedish fish and we can have our own trade deal.
I actually grew up in a Spanish town that was the target of a lot of Erasmus students
I did Erasmus. 3 months in Bilbao as part of my Fine Art degree. Best days of my life and indirectly transformed my life.
Fine Art degree
Three words guaranteed to inflame a rabid Brexiteer!
The BBC is currently doing a summary of key points in the agreement as they go through it.
Interesting reading but don't expect much good news. Services seems to have just been "forgotten" about for instance.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55252388
Am happy (ish) being in UK export manufacturing - no deal would have killed us dead. Still worse than we were.
Without Erasmus I would have never met mrs asbrooks.
Long before that I spent a year in Florence with a previous girlfriend who was studying modern languages and art history. I learnt enough Italian to find myself a job. It opened my eyes to the all sorts of possibilities. It's a sad that our kids will not be able to do the same.
From another BBC article.
On electric cars, an annexe reveals a late compromise.
The EU had sought to offer tariff-free access only to those British cars that are made mostly with European parts. That will now be phased in over six years, but is less generous than the UK ask.
This should be just about enough for Japanese owners of massive UK plants Nissan and Toyota's current production, but raises questions about future rounds of investment.
Looks like you are ok if you work in a car plant... for a few years at least. Nissan etc must be weighing up where they invest in the future. I wouldn't place any money on them still being here in another decade?
Interesting reading but don’t expect much good news. Services seems to have just been “forgotten” about for instance.
German media been raising this point, from the EUs end looks like a big win
Tariff free deal on goods where EU have £93bn surplus, but nothing for services where we have a £23bn surplus
Serious dejavu with the withdrawal agreement
The telegraph & Brexit press stuffed with articles selling Johnson's win
6months from now they'll be wailing that the EU didnt negotiate in good faith, and we'd very much like to renege on the deal we've just signed.....
One of the key problems with the USA is that most* of the people there don't travel and they don't have any understanding of the outside world, even if they follow the news. It's just something they don't really 'get'. The way to fix this is to get people travelling. But of course two weeks on holiday isn't enough, you need to spent time somewhere to understand it, and for most of us we can't afford to immerse ourselves in a culture without working. So we studied and worked in other countries. It's am amazing thing to do. But we've been basically stopped from doing it by people who never did it and never understood why we need to. So yeah Erasmus is useless to people like this.
* not all, obviously
Secondly, it will be as slow as possible to keep the gammony loons from actually starting a civil war.
It’ll be slow, partly because there is a mountain to climb…
I am now remarkably glad that Migrationsverket has sent me a piece of paper that tells people I can’t be deported until a decision has been made about my status. I hope that I get residency and that, come April, I can apply for and get citizenship here.
Frankly, the shitshow I keep seeing in the U.K. keeps reminding me I made the right choice coming here.
Well, we can “celebrate” the deal just not being as bad as no deal and that’s about it. The only trade deal in history to make trading more difficult. There is no victory in this. The loss of rights and opportunities is utterly depressing and will only be felt more as the years go on.
Oh I dunno. Brexit gives me hope.
Hope that other countries (mainly small/medium ones) will learn from our mistake. If even just one other country changes it’s course from delusional arrogant hubristic exceptionalism and learns to treat neighbours as friends and not foes. I’ll take that as a positive.
Hope that other countries (mainly small/medium ones) will learn from our mistake. If even just one other country changes it’s course from delusional arrogant hubristic exceptionalism and learns to treat neighbours as friends and not foes. I’ll take that as a positive.
+1
From another BBC article.
On electric cars, an annexe reveals a late compromise.
The EU had sought to offer tariff-free access only to those British cars that are made mostly with European parts. That will now be phased in over six years, but is less generous than the UK ask.
This should be just about enough for Japanese owners of massive UK plants Nissan and Toyota’s current production, but raises questions about future rounds of investment.
Looks like you are ok if you work in a car plant… for a few years at least. Nissan etc must be weighing up where they invest in the future. I wouldn’t place any money on them still being here in another decade?
But according to several of the most prolific doom-mongers on here UK car plants are already dead in the water with or without a deal? Does this news mean all those 'idiots' who voted leave in Sunderland actually called it right and have got exactly what they wanted?
Leavers don’t like intellect.
Is it any wonder with attitudes like your yours? I'm sure it gives you great comfort to think of yourself as intellectually superior to how you picture the typical leave voter. Perhaps your new year's resolution should be to get over yourself.
But according to several of the most prolific doom-mongers on here UK car plants are already dead in the water with or without a deal? Does this news mean all those ‘idiots’ who voted leave in Sunderland actually called it right and have got exactly what they wanted?
Based solely on what you quoted, I'd say no.