well firstly he would not be an englishman - he would be an anglo-indian 🙂
Everyone living here Matt - thats clear. What is not so clear is what about the diaspora
Dougie’s Brevidential groupthink ESP:
We dont want Brexit but we will happily see the UK split up.
Really? Two can play at that game:
I wanted to leave the EU so badly that it didn’t matter to me that it would risk destabilising and breaking up our sovereign country. I’ll now project these feelings onto
those who chose to remainrandom mountain bikers. In fact I’ll paint them as positively gleeful
(PS My guessing correctly doesn’t automatically grant you the same success)
But getting back to the actual Brevidence. What have you got?
Everyone living here Matt – thats clear. What is not so clear is what about the diaspora
You and I both - hey, I'm even on the GlobalScot network and three sons who put 'Scottish - white' on forms these days 😎
It seems more a South of the border thing to try to differentiate more. I've family and friends who don't seem to get the inclusivity and extent of 'Scottish'.
Born in Glasgow so would be fine from that point of view, kids born in England but two Scottish parents so should be okay. Yeah guess it would be in Scotland's interest to allow it and Johnson would no doubt be a bawbag and make sure anyone living in England suffers as much as possible.
Scotsman article may well be true (and objectively it probably is) BUT all SNP will have to do is run a similar campaign to Leave EU.
You'd just need to throw in a few re-runs of Braveheart and job done.
Any Scottish independence campaign (like Brexit) would just need to appeal to the heart not the head.
However I don't even think Dom/Boris is stupid enough to put an independence referendum on table so suspect it is a moot point...
We dont want Brexit but we will happily see the UK split up.
Personally, I don’t want the UK to split up… one of the many reasons I voted against Brexit. If I lived on your side of the sea, the choice would have been even simpler. How anyone in Northern Ireland could vote for Brexit is far more baffling to me than someone living in Yorkshire doing so… I have no idea what you expect to gain from it over there, especially if you value your ties to the rest of the UK.
We dont want Brexit but we will happily see the UK split up.
Not equivalent. Leaving a club vs leaving an abusive partner.
I am English living in Scotland and I was against independence previously but it's really unfair for Scotland to be dragged into this shitshow in a bin fire.
How anyone in Northern Ireland could vote for Brexit is far more baffling to me than someone living in Yorkshire doing so… I have no idea what you expect to gain from it over there, especially if you value your ties to the rest of the UK.
It's difficult to find any logic with the whole issue of Brexit, but if you were to find any it most certainly won't be in the bizarre, sectarian world of Northern Irish politics.
The very fact that the DUP were blind to the fact that they were ultimately to be thrown under the bus being a prime example. Everyone else saw that one coming a mile off. Boris correctly sussed out that if you paint a Union Jack on something, the DUP will vote for it
How anyone in Northern Ireland could vote for Brexit is far more baffling to me than someone living in Yorkshire doing so
Always trying to be more British than the British.
Going to bite DUP et al on the arse now.
I'm sure the irony is totally lost on them that they've done more to bring about a united Ireland than sinn féin and the IRA ever managed
Scotsman article may well be true (and objectively it probably is) BUT all SNP will have to do is run a similar campaign to Leave EU.
a brexiter saying that scotland shouldnt leave because it would harm their economy is surely the height of irony?
Brexit will cost the UK more than all its payments to the EU over the past 47 years put together.
Didn't we pass this point sometime last year?
dishonesty has consequences
Except it demonstrably hasn't thus far.
Riddle me this.
If WTO is so great, why do so many nations strive to make deals to get away from it?
The SNP are not the totallity of the independence movement and what we saw last time was a reverse of the brexit referendum with the remain side with all the project fear nonsense and the independence side being mainly factual based.
there are those in the broader independence movement far more radical than the SNP who after all are a leftish social democratic party.
dougie - whats that letter in the scotmans supposed to prove?
any successful independence campaign needs to appeal to the heart AND the head. Again if you were not here last time you really don't understand the depth of the debate. Only around 30% of the population are what I call "ideological" nationalists who would accept independence at any price. 1/3 are unionists of no shifting. its the group in the middle that needs to be convinced. Scotland poor economic performance however cuts both ways - would we grow faster with our own policies designed for scotland? simple things like being able to fund renewables better from borrowing could produce a whole new raft of industry. Is it englands policies that hold us back?
Just the other day i was talking to a card carrying tory who actually has stood as a candidate and who now supports independence. Its become that much a no brainer.
Current polling for Holyrood, would give an 8.5% swing to the SNP, giving them & greens 69 seats vs 60 seats for the non-indy parties
http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/swingometer/scottish-parliament?election=2016s&cSNP=55&cLAB=15&cCON=20&cLD=6&rSNP=50&rCON=18&rLAB=15&rGRN=8&rLD=6&rUKIP=0&rBREX=0#Scotland
If you want to see how unpopular Brexit & Johnson are
look at the westminster voting intention:
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/scotland.html
only 1 seat doesnt go to SNP!
I think what will be crucial will be how Johnson (Cummings/Gove) play the devolved governments in their internal market paper
If Johnson wants to strike new trade deals, he will have to keep devolved government on side or they could scupper it big time as they have devolved powers of food labeling, safety etc
If hes is too heavy handed with his internal market white paper in the autumn Sturgeon will have another stick to beat the government with, Johnson already forced thru the WA without the consent of the devolved governments
there is a thread for this even if the 2 things are inextricably linked
What is said:
Gets some facts on your side, understand the implications and then engage.
vs what is heard:
Kimbers - if the independence alliance ( or whatever its going to be called) takes off it could be a bigger majority. Its intended to farm pro independence second votes because at the moment second votes for SNP get them nothing. I think its a mistake mind you and could be counter productive by removing greens
Sold my house in England and moved back to Scotland a month ago after 33 years. My wife who is English is more pro-Indy than me. Scotland’s economy will get the benefit of my house sale proceeds, pension and accumulated savings. I was talking to a builder today whose getting lots of enquiries from south of the border. Know a few city folks now moving from London to Europe. Expect the Brexit Exodus isn’t insignificant. Well done Boris for improving my quality of life.
Wot kimbers sed.
This direction this thread has taken misses "somebody" telling us the truth is out there or inventing new nicknames for Scottish politicians...Dougie/doggie whatever from the previous page is a poundshop THM.
If Johnson wants to strike new trade deals, he will have to keep devolved government on side or they could scupper it big time as they have devolved powers of food labeling, safety etc
If hes is too heavy handed with his internal market white paper in the autumn Sturgeon will have another stick to beat the government with..............
The whole purpose of the internal market nonsense is to force thru the US trade deal with its lowering of standards and to make it impossible for the devolved parliaments to do anything about it
Can anyone understand what Lawson’s on about?
The facts being that he was wrong on climate change, and also wrong on his chances to scarper to the EU (France in the case of M’Lud) even as he successfully campaigned to effectively deny the rest of us and our children the chance to freely live and work there)...
...does that mean that he’s also probably wrong on a ‘no deal‘ exit?
I fear ‘third time lucky‘. Or maybe he knows something I don’t (yet have suspected from the beginning ie crash out, buyout, selloff and scarper)...?
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1286447600342892544
As someone said
It is remarkable that Nigel Lawson, somewhat rambling and on a very bad internet connection, is the best the #UK side can come up with to debate
@katarinabarley
on the interminable issue of #Brexit negotiations on #Newsnight…
Dougie, who would you recommend I listen to for some good news? Some proper evidence/forecasting/analysis that we are ‘better out’? With some PROPER evidence that doesn’t consist of hand-waving and cheery nothings?
Furthermore - talking of Scotland. Anyone remember 2014?
Upside down world. War is peace. Fish are fowl.
Dougie/doggie whatever from the previous page is a poundshop THM.
Thats a bit unfair. Dougie is neither insulting everyone or making up fairy stories pretending he has an inside line.
Its a real shame THM is no longer here. I think him trying to justify what has happened since he left would be hilarious. Presumably thats why he left - no longer able to make any defense not matter how contorted of the mess that is brexit
Firstly I have no idea what a poundshop THM is but I assume it to be a insult, I don't think I have insulted anyone except for possibly their political ideals. Other insults thrown at me have included, drug dealer, drug user and troll.
Thats a bit unfair. Dougie is neither insulting everyone or making up fairy stories pretending he has an inside line.
I said this place was an echo chamber and I have sought to provide some evidence (superficial according to some) that life after Brexit wont be as bad as some in here have said. I do not deny it may be hard but its a big world out there with plenty of opportunity, I believe sense will prevail and a deal will be made with the EU, others opinions and I emphasise opinions may vary.
I believe the EU is going in the direction of statehood and I believe that this will not be in the best interests of the UK. Whether or not the UK still exists is up for debate but is also speculation, I believe it will exist.
On the issue of why an N.irishman would vote for brexit; I think I have made it quite clear that I believe in the UK as a prosperous country of which I want to remain a part, the vote was taken as a UK wide vote "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" N.Ireland is a part of the UK. 44% of people in N.I who voted, voted to leave along with me. You can make your own assumptions about those people, however I guess that like me they fundamentally believed in their place as part of the UK.
I found this video which if you want to watch it agrees with some of my feelings on brexit, I don't feel that it is too far removed from the current situation, I think its conclusion comes to the crux of the problem.
Can you repost the “evidence” you claim to have brought to the thread please? I must have missed it.
Also how do you correlate voting to leave the EU with wanting to remain in the UK?
THM was a previous poster on here that was pro brexit and made ridiculous claims about what was happening and what would happen. He left when it became clear that we were all laughing at him for his nonsense.
life after Brexit wont be as bad as some in here have said
Probably not. Still waiting to hear what you think will be better for people your side of the Irish Sea because of Brexit. “Not as bad as some people say” is a claim you can make with all validity about absolutely everything and anything. What’s the upside for you? Other than both more and less bureaucracy, and both escaping and keeping to EU regulations… which is all I’ve managed to pick out of your contributions so far (which I thank you for, avoiding this being an echo chamber is to be welcomed).
Some examples of how life in Northern Island is being improved by the path this government is on as regards the EU beyond a circular … “it’s a beneficial thing because I believe it is” … please.
TBF TJ he stated repeatedly that he'd voted remain and was just dealing with what was in front of him. he ( rightly, as it turned out ) stated over and over that attempts to reverse the result were futile and we should all just crack on with life. he did make me think, mainly thinking 'there's some nuggets of sense in here it's just a shame you write in such a way you come across as a condescending cock and swamp the sense with so much drivel', but some of his observations were sound. you always rubbed up against each other, but he's not here to defend himself, as you say, so best left alone IMO.
Dougie, 'it won't be as bad as you think' is ok as far as it goes, but it's such a tremendous act of self harm, to gain what? every single thing we have to accomplish to 'do' brexit costs money, money we wouldn't have to spend if we'd stayed in, and the ongoing costs of lower inward investment will perpetuate that initial act of self harm on millions of the less well off. fundamentally, if the country is less well off, it's those at the bottom who pay.
ironic that the majority of your countrymen will likely get what they voted for, to remain, whereas you'll get the opposite of what you want - leaving the UK and staying in the EU. still, i'm sure they'll make provision for you to move to england if that's what you want.
I'm a big fan of how the ambition for the UK's future is now, "It will be ok. Hardship is good."
Kimbers has already pointed it out, but a deal isn't going to change much in the grand scheme of things. No Deal prep and FTA prep are very similar. Customs declarations will be needed regardless of FTA for example
There are some very unavoidable tradeoffs to not being in the SM and CU that people are going to have to wake up to in the next 5 months. Blind faith and a last minute deal isn't going to spirit away a massive lorry park in your back garden.
Its a real shame THM is no longer here. I think him trying to justify what has happened since he left would be hilarious. Presumably thats why he left – no longer able to make any defense not matter how contorted of the mess that is brexit
I was thinking this the other day. Wonder what happened to all those 'adults' who were just biding their time before striding into the conference room to deliver a magnificently spun BRINO. Halcyon days when there was still the hope of mitigating most of the damage. Now we have a juvenile Churchill fetishist in Number 10 being given orders by a pseudo intellectual maniac with a hard-on for destroying institutions for the hell of it. Grownups my arse.
And eventually Doogie has come out with the Brexiteers last slogan of choice:
"It won't be as bad as you think".
Oh, right, f***ing cheers for that. That makes it all OK. Whatever next, blue passports?
So is being able to trade with the rest of the world on our own terms instead of through the EU not a possible bonus of leaving?
Also the decision has been made to leave it is happening, why is it so wrong to suggest that we get on with it?
I think we could all agree that the main sticking point is uncertainty oabout the ultimate trading direction, which this government needs to make sooner rather than later, it would parliament to mitigate the effects on poorer members of society.
I would also say that if thoughts/opinions/feelings are now suddenly conspiracy or not valid, then there is not a lot of substance to this thread in either direction.
on our own terms
What does that mean? We don’t set terms, we negotiate them (or not).
why is it so wrong to suggest that we get on with it?
We have left the EU. How is this improving your life over there?
So is being able to trade with the rest of the world on our own terms instead of through the EU not a possible bonus of leaving?
Nope. Not as a net importer and a country still living way beyond its means in a global sense. Add in particularly adversarial and insular populist regime elsewhere and I would much prefer to have the clout of being part of a large trading bloc that can have some leverage.
Also the decision has been made to leave it is happening, why is it so wrong to suggest that we get on with it?
Because 'hope'.
I think we could all agree that the main sticking point is uncertainty about the ultimate trading direction, which this government needs to make sooner rather than later, it would parliament to mitigate the effects on poorer members of society.
So mitigating damage is now the goal? Mitigating self-inflicted damage? That's the best we can do?
Stick it on the side of a bus, mate.
So is being able to trade with the rest of the world on our own terms instead of through the EU not a possible bonus of leaving?
A ‘bonus’ is an added sum. Usually a dividend. An extra sum, a reward, etc. Given that Brexit will have soon cost the UK more than all its payments to the EU over the past 47 years put together - over what sort of timescale do we expect to see the reward of your ‘possible bonus’ and in what form would it arrive?
in what form would it arrive?
Sovereignty bonds embossed with an image of Mark Francois riding a bulldog into battle against the Hun ?
The problem for the brexiteers is that the costs sunk into brexit mean it will be a decade at least before it becomes profitable
There's been no evidence presented so far that it ever will be
it would parliament to mitigate the effects on poorer members of society.
What mitigation would that be?
dougiedogg
MemberSo is being able to trade with the rest of the world on our own terms instead of through the EU not a possible bonus of leaving?
It is. It's just, it's a small bonus, which will be cancelled out many times over by the massive damage that comes with that bonus. There's quite a few places where we can make small gains through brexit but that counts for nothing if they're tied to places where we will make large losses. Losing your driving licence isn't good news just because you save on petrol.
Given that Brexit will have soon cost the UK more than all its payments to the EU over the past 47 years put together
Remain must take their portion of the blame for the on going costs of the drawn out process. Indeed remain must take share of the blame for the presence of Bojo as PM.
How on earth do you figure that out?
In the same way as a mugging victim has to take their share of the blame for their injuries for fighting back. If you'd just handed over your wallet and phone both you and the mugger would be better off?
Remain must take their portion of the blame for the on going costs of the drawn out process. Indeed remain must take share of the blame for the presence of Bojo as PM.
Very good dougie - thats exactly the line the boris government wants brexiteers to parrot , i figure you also have to apportion blame to the following,
Brexiteers who did not accept Theresa May's brexit deal
Pro Brexit DUP who blocked Boris' brexit
The £350m nhs bus was a lie but it wasn't enough to change the result....
Yes vote leave illegally overspent but it wasn't enough to change the result....
Yes people voted expecting a deal but it wasn't enough to change the result....
yes Russia may have amplified the lies but it wasn't enough to change the result.....
52% vs 48%, makes you think eh?
