Pro-Brexit opinion:
Theres no Brevidence because it hasn’t happened yet, it’s still all specualation
Biased STW ‘echo-chamber’ opinion:
Brexit has happened. The transition period now has an unmovable end date.
Oh my head.
I thought it was the UK government?
Sorry Malvern, but as far as I was aware negotiations (possibly limited as they are) where still ongoing? Therefore nothing has actually happened yet?
As for the NHS being sold off, when I go for my CT scans its with a private company through the NHS, So my question is, has privitisation not already happened and why is it such a bad thing? Tax payers do actually pay for the NHS.
Therefore nothing has actually happened yet?
So, on that basis, if you go and stand in the middle of the road and a car is heading straight for you at 70mph, then that's all fine because technically nothing has actually happened yet?
We havent agreed which lane we are standing in and which lane the car is travelling in
I'm yet to see one benefit of Brexit so far, and I have seen no information out there that says once we are truly free from the EU these will be the list of benefits & they outweigh the list of negatives because of X, Y, Z.
Say for example there is a benefit - a real benefit that will affect people in a positive way; not just words like sovereignty, taking back control, making our own decisions, no more unelected bureaucrats etc. That/those benefits have to outweigh all of the bad things Brexit has done, to make them worthwhile.
I have taken much more interest in politics over the last 5 years or so but still consider myself pretty naive to the workings of political systems, motives, integration with the EU etc. There is a lot to learn.
But, from my layman point of view we seem to have lost (and please correct me if I am wrong because I probably am in some aspects):
- ERASMUS
- E111 health card
- Pet passports
- Simple foreign holidays (as in, no need to worry about visas, passports being valid for 6 months+ etc)
- Driving in Europe - will we need an international driving permit?
- Galileo
- access to Europol; no confirmation as of yet that I have seen we will still have access to Europol data & resources
Plus
- it seems likely we will need to pay more for things if we order from Europe because of import duty/tariffs
- customs paperwork seems to be going up massively (weren't we supposed to be getting rid of unnecessary red tape?) for most businesses
- the cost of customs officials to administer all of this on an on-going basis has been estimated at £1.5bn (for an estimate of 50,000 people to administer all the required paperwork).
If someone could argue that yes, we do lose those things but we gain so many other things & quantify in real terms what they are I would perhaps change my viewpoint. But, I have not seen any 'good' things yet.
We haven't agreed which lane we are standing in and which lane the car is traveling in
Oh yes we have. We're both very much in the same lane, and the UK is the rabbit in the headlights to the EU's juggernaut.
Much as they keep trying to rebrand it with all their 'Australian Style Deal' bollocks, everyone knows that that means No Deal.
And even the most hardcore Brexiteer always assured us that no deal definitely wouldn't be happening, because that would be financially catastrophic for the UK.
We havent agreed which lane we are standing in and which lane the car is travelling in
Right. Stop and think for a second about what you just wrote there.
Binners' example was for you to go stand in the middle of the M6 and your immediate response is "which lane?" rather than getting the **** over to the hard shoulder and diving behind the Armco tout suite.
As brexit analogies go, it's one of the better ones I've seen recently.
What does the armco signify?
The good news for me, the UK gets to remove one level of governance from the council < devolved < westminister < EU system.
Hmm. I some sympathy for that position, I was never in favour of devolution, but if it's here, really the English should also have their own parliament.
Unfortunately what we're heading for will make the breakup of the UK much more likely, and I suspect Dougie, a United Ireland much more likely too. So it rather looks like you at least won't be getting rid of the EU any time soon. Sorry about that.
sovereignty, taking back control, making our own decisions, no more unelected bureaucrats
Some would say these are benefits
No more unelected bureaucrats… when do we get that one?
And again, decisions made jointly at the EU level will still effect us all, and if you’re in Northern Island you especially, but we no longer have representation or a role there in the council of ministers, the courts, the parliament… etc.
I’m yet to see one benefit of Brexit so far
We get our sovereignty back that we never lost and they don't know what the word means anyway but it sounds important.
It would be undemocratic not to, if we redefine democracy as pandering to a tiny majority and attempting to silence anyone who disagrees.
Brussels won't be telling us what to do any more, neatly overlooking the fact that UK MEPs made up fully one tenth of the European Parliament and in a very real sense we told them what to do.
We don't want unelected bureaucrats, so we'll presumably be sacking the civil service next year too.
We get control of our borders that we already had control of.
We can reduce red tape by doing loads of admin work ourselves that we previously palmed off onto central resources so we didn't have to.
We can, obviously, strike better trade deals with the trading clout of a country of one rather than that of 28. It's well documented that Dave's Mini-Mart gets superior prices at the distributor than Tesco which is why everyone does their monthly shop there.
We get our 'iconic' blue passports back that we could have changed at any time, replacing the burgundy that we chose with the blue that was imposed on us by the League of Nations.
Let's give more money to the NHS! We're not actually going to, but let's!
One I heard just today, there's a housing crisis. Because, erm, the EU mandates that we can't build houses?
Something about fish that no-one gave two shits about until it came to light as a potentially handy argument. MOAR HERRING!
Have I missed anything?
As for the NHS being sold off, when I go for my CT scans its with a private company through the NHS, So my question is, has privitisation not already happened and why is it such a bad thing? Tax payers do actually pay for the NHS.
That’s a great question but certainly needs a thread of it’s own. Maybe (and I mean this kindly) have a step out of your own ‘echo-chamber‘/look at some differing/wider evidence, then begin a thread about the subject? I’d be happy to contribute as the matter has and continues to have an enormous and now inescapable effect on my life and that of my family and I care that it doesn’t happen to others/improves rather than gets worse. Recommend to give this a watch:
sovereignty, taking back control, making our own decisions, no more unelected bureaucrats
Some would say these are benefits
Not sure if serious. But let’s do these one at a time.
So where are all these trade deals that the world was supposed to be queueing up to sign?
We've got five months, oh yeah, it was all bollocks wasn't it.
No more unelected bureaucrats…
Hi...
Some would say these are benefits
Yes, we know these people as 'morons'
Unfortunately what we’re heading for will make the breakup of the UK much more likely, and I suspect Dougie, a United Ireland much more likely too. So it rather looks like you at least won’t be getting rid of the EU any time soon. Sorry about that
I dont see a UI in my lifetime, I cant see it happening without a devolved government in the north anyway. I do agree N.I will most likely remain under EU regs after the 5 year period.
I do agree N.I will most likely remain under EU regs after the 5 year period.
Yet another thing to add to the list of things we were solemnly promised by the Brexiteers would absolutely, definitely not be happening
I believe Boris's exact words were "no British Prime Minister would ever agree to do such a thing"
About five minutes before he did indeed agree to do such a thing
dougiedogg
Member
sovereignty, taking back control, making our own decisions, no more unelected bureaucratsSome would say these are benefits
But they aren't because:
We always had sovereignty: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-white-paper-uk-parliament-remian-sovereign-eu-membership-referendum-campaign-brussels-article-a7559556.html
Taking back control of what? What control did we not have, that we will now have? Real examples of situations where we had no control, but now we do that will actually benefit us? I can't recall seeing one?
Making our own decisions....again, see above. What decisions could we not make that we could now make independently? And how would we do them differently now? Real examples of real decisions and how we would do them differently now?
Unelected bureaucrats....this has always been a nonsense throwaway tagline to get the gammons frothing. We have always had elected officials as our representatives in the EU:
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/european-elections/european_elections/the_voting_system.html
What does the armco signify?
Are you asking what Armco is, or it's relevance in the analogy?
Some would say these are benefits
Some would indeed. But they'd either have to not have paid any attention to any discussions in the last four years where we've explained over and over and over why everything you've just listed is a nonsense, or be an abject moron.
---
Because I've had this argument time and again.
"I want brexit because [reason]."
"But [reason] doesn't exist / is a lie / won't be fixed by brexit / we can have anyway / etc."
... at this point you can do one of two things.
1/ A wise man goes "oh, I didn't know that, thanks" and revises their opinion in light of new information. (A particularly wise man will first fact-check this new information, but we all knew that, right?)
2/ An idiot doubles down. The flow chart here then splits into three. In order of likelihood: they don't engage and change the subject; they get angry and abusive; or they go silent and disappear (often to resurface days later with the same discredited argument).
MOAR HERRING!
Have I missed anything?
Yes you missed out the word ‘RED-’
Unelected bureaucrats….this has always been a nonsense throwaway tagline to get the gammons frothing. We have always had elected officials as our representatives in the EU:
Just to add to this, the "unelected bureaucrats" this slur refers to are the EU equivalent of Parliament's Civil Service, only working for 28 27 countries rather than just one. There are ~33,000 "unelected bureaucrats" in the EU Commission; by way of comparison, the UK alone employs over 400,000.
Now, about that red tape...
Also, you may say that this place is an anti-Brexit echo chamber, but equally so are the areas of the web that are pro-brexit, there is a motorbike forum that I pretty much no longer post on, as the pro-brexit ramblings/send them home/I'm not racist but "darkies" rhetoric makes me reconsider whether I even want to be in the virtual company of those kinds of people.
Just to add to this, the “unelected bureaucrats” this slur refers to are the EU equivalent of Parliament’s Civil Service, only working for 28 27 countries rather than just one. There are ~33,000 “unelected bureaucrats” in the EU Commission; by way of comparison, the UK alone employs over 400,000.
we had to hire 20,000 just after the brexit vote alone
we need an extra 50,000 !!!!!!!! extra just to fill out all the customs declarations!
https://www.ft.com/content/3c1ae9bd-97e0-4131-b7e6-b4d0d5b8f4ff
Ah, here. Read this.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseupr/2019/02/19/is-the-european-union-governed-by-unelected-bureaucrats/
TL;DR:
the idea that ‘the EU is governed by unelected bureaucrats” exhibits a very strong misunderstanding of how the EU is governed,
Four years ago this would have been a reasonable, understandable argument. Many things about the EU were poorly understood by the vast majority of the population at the time, myself included. Because, why would you have any reason to know? (Reason #471 why the referendum was a bloody stupid idea, one of the most popular Google searches at the time was "what is the eu?")
Anyone having discussions in public who is still asserting this today, they're doing it because they want to believe it's true. They've had four years to learn something, it's now wilful ignorance.
Pah you lot and your facts 🙂
Must admit though I'm pretty sure i've never heard an answer to the old "well what will you be able to do after brexit that the EU is currently preventing you from doing now".
Ironically dougiedogg is just as echoey, it's just that the echoes are from right at the start of brexit.
I do agree N.I will most likely remain under EU regs after the 5 year period.
We all will to some degree, but yes, you even more so that side of the sea. Now, how do we help set those regs now that we’ve fully surrendered control over them in exchange for… er… um… er…
sobriety
Also, you may say that this place is an anti-Brexit echo chamber, but equally so are the areas of the web that are pro-brexit, there is a motorbike forum that I pretty much no longer post on, as the pro-brexit ramblings/send them home/I’m not racist but “darkies” rhetoric makes me reconsider whether I even want to be in the virtual company of those kinds of people.
lol it wasn't the HUBB was it?
Ah, here. Read this.
Unfortunately that article has a number of shortcomings, rather neatly illustrated by the result of the most recent European Elections where the "elected" head of commission was overlooked because they didn't like the cut of his jib and so they appointed Von der Leyen instead.
Anyway this thread is full of bullshit. An example of which being the whole sale of the NHS Brexit amendment which was just a PR stunt by the SNP and Greens. The Trade Bill is purely a technical bill to manage the rollover of some existent deals and multilateral agreements. They love it because it makes its way onto TheyWorkforYou site and suckers the idiots, who want to believe anything negative. Then we get the disaster capitalists, paymaster crap routinely discussed as a reasonable hypothesis. It really is very funny.
An example of which being the whole sale of the NHS Brexit amendment which was just a PR stunt by the SNP and Greens.
Do you mean clause 4 proposed by a Conservative MP? (See back two pages in this thread).
The Trade Bill is purely a technical bill to manage the rollover of some existent deals and multilateral agreements.
No, it isn’t. Try again.
Shame the selling of the NHS and the lowering of food standards are prerequisites for a us trade deal. Read what the Americans have written on it
Brexit has already cost billions
It really is very funny.
You have a very strange sense of humour.
Anyway this thread is full of bullshit
Which bits specifically, other than the bit you've already been shown to have got wrong?
The fact that the hedge funds which backed Johnson and Leave are making billions out of no deal, and the flood of dark money from Russia into Tory coffers has nothing to do with anything, right?
Do you mean the clause proposed by a Conservative MP?
If I had I meant that amendement I wouldn't have described as I did would I?
No, it isn’t. Try again.
It is, you can read it here.
Unfortunately that article has a number of shortcomings, rather neatly illustrated by the result of the most recent European Elections where the “elected” head of commission was overlooked because they didn’t like the cut of his jib and so they appointed Von der Leyen instead.
... rather neatly illustrating the answer to the continual accusation over the last half a decade that it's "undemocratic" because there's "only one name on the ballot." The Council (heads of state of 27/8 countries) puts forward their agreed candidate, the Parliament (democratically elected MEPs) vote on the nominee, and if the answer is "no" they go back and nominate someone else.
You can't have it both ways, complaining that there's only one candidate and then complaining when you find out there isn't. These two things are mutually exclusive, pick one.
It is
Does it apply to new deals and arrangements?
When does it expire?
Is not just for “the rollover of some existent deals and multilateral agreements“, and attempts to limit it to such were blocked (including amendments that passed before the election, and have now been removed).
Does it apply to new deals and arrangements?
Nope see Clause 2(3)
Also,
Anyone in the UK complaining about the nomination of the EU President being undemocratic either needs to take a good look at how we got our own Prime Minister or is a monumental hypocrite.
EU president - voted for by the heads of state of 28 countries and 750 MEPs democratically elected by their respective countries.
Boris - voted for by <200,000 Tory party members whose only qualification is that they've paid £25 for the right to do so.
Nope see Clause 2(3)
I'm not re-reading it... but my recollection is that it covers any deal or arrangement with any third party that has a deal or arrangement with the EU... so no new countries... but the deal or arrangement can take any form... it isn't just for a "rollover" on current terms... it includes new deals and arrangements... hence calls for those that differ (and aren't a "rollover") to be published and voted on.
Cougar, I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Spitzenkandidat process.
@mefty - can you please explain this...
Unfortunately that article has a number of shortcomings, rather neatly illustrated by the result of the most recent European Elections where the “elected” head of commission was overlooked because they didn’t like the cut of his jib and so they appointed Von der Leyen instead.
From Wikipedia...
On 2 July 2019, von der Leyen was proposed by the European Council as their candidate for the office of President of the European Commission.[2][3] She was elected President by the European Parliament on 16 July, with 383 to 327 votes.[4] She will be the first woman to hold the office[106] and the first German since the Commission's first president, Walter Hallstein.
Cougar, I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Spitzenkandidat process.
Which bit is wrong?
In any case, even if I've got the process slightly out the point stands, no? You can't complain that there's only one candidate and then complain when there's another one.
PrinceJohn, I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Spitzenkandidat process.
What do you lot think about the US election and its impact on Brexit? I'm hoping a Biden win will make a no-deal less palatable, given we've well and truly pissed off Beijing?
Little to no difference. You need to stop thinking about the damage to business of No Deal being something that this government want to avoid. They don’t. What happens in the USA has no bearing on that.
