I'm going for plan B... get the Tories out... put pressure on Labour to implement reforms to elect the upper house on a purely list based PR, and the commons on a system of PR that keeps the link to local constituencies. I even joined the buggers to vote for those policies when the chance comes up. After decades of agreeing with all the "Labservatives" messaging of Labour and Tory governments being much the same... the last 12 years have been a hard lesson in finding out otherwise.
Where as permanent Tory rule will deliver us PR and prevent them getting another majority?
Because voting UKIP resulted in permanent Labour rule?
Well, no.
I’ll be voting SNP.
But let me get this right…?
You’re going to use your vote in manner which will mean you are going to spend the majority of your remaining years living under a Tory government with an absolute majority despite only receiving 30% of the popular vote.
Have I got that right?
+1 and me too.
Because voting UKIP resulted in permanent Labour rule?
I don’t understand that comment Bruce.
___________
I'd probably vote SNP as well by the way, if I lived in Scotland.
I'd vote for Caroline Lucas if I was in her seat.
And I'd vote LibDem in a Tory/LibDem marginal.
Back to Brexit now...?
I don’t understand that comment Bruce.
If you vote Labour you are voting to continue with the current system.
If the current system continues you are going to spend the majority of your remaining days living under a Tory absolute majority that was elected on 30% of the popular vote.
What's not to understand?
What’s not to understand?
Not voting Labour, in my constituency, ALSO will result in the current system continuing, but with a worse government that cares much less about people.
What's not to understand?
I'm another +1 for obviously being too thick to understand.
There will be an election in a years time give or take.
There will be no electoral reform before then, it'll be FPTP as always.
It's a two horse race overall, consisting of a series of small races but each is FPTP. Like it or not that is the fact, because of the population / # seats in England vs NI/S/W and the likely alliances and non-alliances (DUP = Tory, SNP =/= Labour) and so the result in England will dictate the result overall.
I get what you say that Labour have not expressed a desire to change the system, the Tories certainly won't. I also get that if the system doesn't change then we remain mainly in binary flip flopping
So it's a binary choice of L vs C coloured in some places by the need to tactical vote to make sure the other horse loses. And the C horse MUST lose, another 5 years or continual government is unconscionable (another 5 years in 10 years time is painful too I grant, but the unbroken bit is the issue)
Either way, the time to really push for electoral reform is after the next election, unless you have a master plan that I can't spot for how that shifts seismically in the relatively short time left. And I get 'be the change you want to see' or that if everyone went with their heart then we might end up with PR by proxy. But, everyone won't do that and while we can rail and wail about how unfair that is, there is one game with one clear set of rules for the next year.
The house is on fire, but we can't rebuild it until the fire is out.
There will be no electoral reform before then, it’ll be FPTP as always.
This is going to be true of every election from now until the end of time unless something changes. If you vote Labour IT WILL NEVER CHANGE. That is something that is going to always be true.
I don’t understand that comment Bruce.
Now that you've edited so I know this is the bit:
Because voting UKIP resulted in permanent Labour rule?
It forced the Tories to shift ever rightward to try to regain their votes (and by extension forced Labour to shift ever rightward).
Eventually David Cameron had a bright idea that would solve the problem of people switching to UKIP forever.
UKIP and UKIP voters won because they decided, 'I don't care if Labour gets in because of it, I'm going to vote for something that will actually change things.'
And it worked.
The house is on fire, but we can’t rebuild it until the fire is out.
The 'fire' is the FPTP election system. It's the root of every other problem.
If you vote Labour IT WILL NEVER CHANGE.
If I vote LD it will also never change.
I'd be better off voting Labour then campaigning for Labour to change the system. A quick Google suggests that a majority of Labour supporters are now in favour of reform, which suggests it's only a matter of time before it comes back on the agenda. It's certainly discussed a lot. The more it gets discussed the more chance we will have of change.
Results from my constituency in 2019:
Anna McMorrin Labour
26,064 49.5% -0.6%
Mo Ali Conservative
19,082 36.2% -5.9%
Rhys Taylor Liberal Democrat
3,580 6.8% 3.5%
Steffan Webb Plaid Cymru
1,606 3.0% -0.3%
Chris Butler The Brexit Party
1,311 2.5% 2.5%
Michael Cope Green Party
820 1.6% 1.6%
If I vote LD it will also never change.
I agree, but only because, like I said earlier, the Lib Dems are for getting jobs in government and against not getting jobs in government.
Apart from that you don't really know what you're voting for with them.
Well you certainly know what you're getting with the SNP which is a continuing marginalisation in Westminster because they don't vote on England issues. Laudable though the sentiment may be, all the time they do that the other parties don't need them - they're weakening their bargaining power opting out and basically serving up labours policies north of the border with an 'aim for independence' bit tacked on. They've been at the controls how long now? They're contributing to labour losses.
labour and lib dems should do a one election electoral pact and stand down in 50 seats each in favour of the other, Stand on a platform of proper constitutional reform via a constitutional convention, closer links to europe and steady as she goes bit leftish economically. Soon as possible new election under a proper modern electoral system.
Should have done it years ago.
Well you certainly know what you’re getting with the SNP which is a continuing marginalisation in Westminster because they don’t vote on England issues. Laudable though the sentiment may be, all the time they do that the other parties don’t need them – they’re weakening their bargaining power opting out and basically serving up labours policies north of the border with an ‘aim for independence’ bit tacked on. They’ve been at the controls how long now? They’re contributing to labour losses.
We are used to it now. Scottish votes are irrelevant at Westminster. Thanks for spotting the major argument for independence.
SNP will not support a tory government - thats a red line. SNP policy is well to the left of labour
Well I said I'd update Bruce as to Labour priorities at an upcoming election, so here goes:
The priority for any labour government will basically be regional devolution. Moving decision-making power from London and Westminster and to the regions so that the people on the ground in any area will make their own decisions. Including Education and Health. Actual proper stuff, not just token gestures. So an end to areas going cap-in-hand to Westminster as in the frankly humiliating recent round of 'levelling up' funding, which as Lisa Nandy observed, pitched everyone against each other and left most people with nothing.
This is in recognition of the Brexit vote largely being a kick against centralised bureaucracy (if only it had been the right one - the one in Westminster, not Brussels)
So its the polar opposite of the Tory's who want to increasingly centralise everything in London and hoard power where it presently is, in the South East.
I don't expect it'll make the remotest difference to the way you vote, but I said I'd keep you posted, so there you go. I don't think it fits your 'they're all the same' narrative, but I expect you'll disagree with me
I don’t think it fits your ‘they’re all the same’ narrative, but I expect you’ll disagree with me
It's not my narrative. What I said was, if you want to be able to argue against the 'they're all the same' narrative Starmer needs to stop abandoning pledges.
What you say sounds fine. How do we know Starmer isn't going to abandon it like he abandoned all the other good stuff?
Also... for the voting reform fans... the Tories legislated for an end to PR, SV/STV in local and regional elections in England in future, in the same bill as voter ID... Labour say they will repeal that bill. Big fan of FPTP? Then help the Tories stay in power.
Some info on the Mayoral election changes that come out of that...
Labour say they will repeal that bill
For now.
What you say sounds fine. How do we know Starmer isn’t going to abandon it like he abandoned all the other good stuff?
While I'd disagree with your analysis there, obviously, Starmer hasn't actually written an electoral manifesto. These will all be manifesto commitments.
Whether you believe them or not is entirely up to you. Thats democracy 😀
While I’d disagree with your analysis there, obviously, Starmer hasn’t actually written an electoral manifesto. These will all be manifesto commitments.
Ah, ok. So he'll be legally bound to stick to manifesto commitments as opposed to his leadership election commitments which were merely placeholders for the legally binding manifesto commitments?
We are used to it now. Scottish votes are irrelevant at Westminster. Thanks for spotting the major argument for independence
Circular argument. It suits the SNP to have a tory government. All the better to rail against.
The priority for any labour government will basically be regional devolution.
Finger on the pulse stuff there. I can see that really dominating political debate for, oooooh, milliseconds.
They should really push the boat out and promise a cones hotline too.
Local elections. National element of campaign focussing on devolving power. You might well find it dull though… bring on Boris driving a JCB through a wall of pretend bricks.
The creation of the Welsh assembly and Scottish parliament have been positive steps. Delivered by… anyway, England’s turn… perhaps if this has been addressed earlier, we wouldn’t have had Brexit.
I’m aware the revolutionaries in the common room probably have their minds on bigger things
I’m aware the revolutionaries in the common room probably have their minds on bigger things
Yep, Scottish Independence.
The house is on fire, but we can’t rebuild it until the fire is out.
So much this. Do whatever you can in the area you live in under the system that we currently have.
Division on this fact is the only thing the Tories have.
So much this. Do whatever you can in the area you live in under the system that we currently have.
Division on this fact is the only thing the Tories have.
Just to push this metaphor to it's absolute limit, yes, the Tory party is the fire and it has to be tackled. The Labour party is the fire extinguisher.
However, the current electoral system is the gas mains that is fueling the fire. It is the thing that means we have and will continue to spend the majority of our lives living under a Tory government with an absolute majority that was elected with roughly 30% of the popular vote.
If you use the fire extinguisher, it might temporarily make the fire a bit smaller but as soon as that fire extinguisher runs out you will be left with a fire that is worse than what it was before.
Voting Labour will not turn off the gas mains.
I ****ing hate metaphors.
Getting back to Brexit, Kemi Badenoch has just been on radio 4 singing the praises of signing trade agreements with large trading blocks. These ones (CPTPP) being on the other side of the world
Yet obviously she is still dead against signing trade agreements with the large trading block on our doorstep
The cognitive dissonance really is off the chart. Its actually positively unhinged!
A few good digs at civil servants for using real numbers and not believing enough as well.
Getting back to Brexit, Kemi Badenoch has just been on radio 4 singing the praises of signing trade agreements with large trading blocks. These ones (CPTPP) being on the other side of the world
Aye, did I miss the referendum before we joined CPTPP?
This new deal is to grow the economy by 0.08%.
What another Brexit win.
I, for one, welcome our new corporate overlords and the secret courts that will decide which government policies will be allowed to go ahead and which won't.
Give back control! We didn't actually want it in the first place!
Give back control! We didn’t actually want it in the first place!
People are beginning to come around to the idea...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-parliament-trust-eu-poll-b2310692.html
Yep, being accepted into the CPTPP is laughable;
0.08% - I can't wait to enjoy the benefits!
Ever the shrinking violet, Mad Lizzie has this morning taken the credit for that for that 0.08% uptake in the economy. She's neglected to work out how many decades it would take for that to add up to the billions that her and Kamikwarsi spaffed in an afternoon
https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1641711302933397510?s=20
The whole thing with CPTPP is that it's a wrecking move - they know full well there's no benefit and a lot of the clauses would be unpopular with the public, but they're also expecting to lose the next election so wont have to deal with the fallout, and it makes it harder for us to rejoin the EU.
and it makes it harder for us to rejoin the EU.
I think if it comes to re-joining the EU or staying in the CPTPP that's not going to be a long decision making process is it? I think of all the things to criticize that's probably the least impactful.
Mleh, it's obviously not a good enough reason to leave the EU, but there's no reason not to do this sort of thing now we're out.
We’d just do what other accession countries do… slowly withdraw from less important treaties as we move closer to all the other countries of Europe… like giving up your paper round for the new immeasurably better paid full time job with perks and pension. It does slow down any return a bit… but we’re talking an extra few months or a year on top of the decades it’ll take us anyway.
This is what we can achieve when we unleash the benefits of Brexit.
Usual counter factual bullshit from the current clown show. Don't forget, 80% of trade was to be covered by free trade agreements at the end of 2022.
Kemi Badenoch has just been on radio 4 singing the praises of signing trade agreements with large trading blocks
War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.
Ironic really remembering how jambalaya used to bang on about polish(?) pig farmers
I almost fell for that one, sufficiently advanced parody is indistinguishable from actual tories
It now looks like the tories have realised just how stupid it is to ditchall EU laws and are going to try to quietly drop it or delay untill after the next election
