They were not slaves.
Ah yes the age-old slavers mantra of giving their slaves a roof over their head and food in their mouths. I've got no problem with foreign workers, I'm all for open borders in fact (actually I'd rather they were abolished altogether), but they should be paid whatever the going rate is that local workers would be paid. In the Lake DIstrict and other tourist spots we've constructed an economy based on artificially depressed wages which the local labour force are not willing to work for, and that doesn't make for a stable or sustainable economy, as we're now discovering.
Although I should add I don't agree with the blunt instrument of cutting off that cheap supply of labour overnight. It's an interesting experiment, but as with all things the transition needs to be managed, as leaving it to the maket will simply result in collapse.
the blunt instrument of cutting off that
cheapsupply of labour overnight
My point was... these people were not just "labour", they were people with the right to make this their home if they wanted to. Young people looking to a possible new future. Not people shipped in, allowed to stay if their employer says so, and then shipped out. They were people like you and me, not second class citizens with no right to be here beyond the labour they are providing.
So are we adding these tourist business owners to your ever-lengthening list of people who deserve to go bust then, or not?
So far we've the farming industry and the fishing industry who have now bit the dust as a result of your economic genocide. Are we now adding tourism to that too?
We're going to need a lot of land to grow all those soya beans, so it's probably a good thing. And we can all be employed in jobs of honest toil, tending the crops
An artists impression of Skiddaw once Daz's masterplan reaches fruition:
So are we adding these tourist business owners to your ever-lengthening list of people who deserve to go bust then, or not?
well...Yes, obviously, this a market-facing agile Nu-Britain. Lean and hungry for success. Haven't you read the newspapers?
They were people like you and me, not second class citizens with no right to be here beyond the labour they are providing.
That's a pretty rose-tinted view of it. I don't disagree though, but that doesn't answer my point about them being paid properly, because the reality is that the pay and conditions for many of these foreign workers are terrible, and below that which the local work force will accept.
because the reality is that the pay and conditions for many of these foreign workers are terrible, and below that which the local work force will accept.
The point about those tourist businesses is that there is no 'local' workforce, hence having to bring them in. They weren't marched at gunpoint to the Lake District. Keswick isn't a gulag. They made their own way there
below that which the local work force will accept
There is no "local work force". You're just making up a situation that doesn't exist. I presume you've never worked in agriculture or hospitality? They both depend on imported workers for reasons other than "pay and conditions". Oh, a tip if you're looking for a career change.... never, ever pick raspberries... it's hellish work.
as a result of your economic genocide
Not my economic genocide, I voted to stay in. Now we're out though the results are turning out to be pretty interesting for those like me who want to see radical stuctural change in our economy. An economy based on the assumption of a ready supply of cheap labour is a pyramid scheme, plain and simple. I don't know about you, but I'm not mad keen on pyramid schemes as they tend to collapse with catastrophic results. Quite frankly I'm amazed the ultra-capitalists who designed brexit have allowed this to happen, because it will completely undermine their entire world view.
An artists impression of Skiddaw once Daz’s masterplan reaches fruition:
Looks much nicer than it is now. At least there would be something growing and living on it rather than it's current barren post-apocalyptic state.
radical stuctural change in our economy
Well, this absolutely will happen. And it'll all be in the interests of the "worker".. honest.
An economy based on the assumption of a ready supply of
cheaplabour
EU workers earn more, pay more tax, and are more educated.
Oh, a tip if you’re looking for a career change…. never, ever pick raspberries… it’s hellish work
Raspberries? Bliss compared to gooseberries.
God... no [ THE HORROR ].
Hated hop tying more, at least the weather tends to be good when picking soft fruit.
There is no “local work force”.
Only because they've been forced to leave because of inflating property prices fuelled by the tourism industry. You're complaining about a lack of workers in an area where the industry they work in has directly caused that shortage.
They weren’t marched at gunpoint to the Lake District. Keswick isn’t a gulag.
Try visiting the pencil museum on a rainy day.
I know... if we just force all the home owning retired people in these rural areas back to work... it'll all sort itself out.
Quite frankly I’m amazed the ultra-capitalists who designed brexit have allowed this to happen, because it will completely undermine their entire world view.
I didn't think you were quite that economically illiterate dazh.
There isn't a local work force because there aren't any jobs/houses for them so they've almost all moved to cities/abroad. I know because I grew up around there.
The lake district used to be pretty industrialised and much more heavily populated, because there were year round jobs.
There are some jobs you'd "happily" do for a summer or two when you're young, but would do anything to avoid making your job for life... you wouldn't stay in the area to do them no matter what you were paid and even if they weren't seasonal. The idea that young people won't leave the area if fruit picking paid more is bobbins. Tourism is a bit different, and plenty of people do carve out a career in it, but not all of the those people will be "local"... people move for different opportunities and different jobs... it's always been that way, why shouldn't it be?
I know because I grew up around there.
So it's your bloody fault?!
Get back there then! Those beds aren't going to make themselves!! 😉
The idea that young people won’t leave the area if fruit picking paid more is bobbins.
For a start; fruit picking season is what? 8-9 weeks, tops
Young casual immigration of people who come here willingly for the seasons. Well, there were coming willing. They were not slaves. Same goes for hospitality. Importantly, if these people decided they liked it here after a taste of the UK, they could look to come back another year with the idea of either looking for other work in the off season, or a more permanent job (or starting up their own business). They were not slaves.
A large part of the workforce for the farms, hospitality and the chicken factory in Hereford was made up of Eastern Europeans who loved being here. They were regularly putting down roots, making a life for themselves here and sending money back home too. That has all pretty much gone now. It is a stark change to the makeup of the local population and it's definitely not for the better the way it is now.
I used to speak to a lot of these 'immigrants' in my old job and they were on the whole more polite, harder working and generally better people than a lot of the locals. Telling them to basically 'sod off back home' has been a massive mistake that can be seen in the understaffed shops, the rotting food in the fields and the constant advertising of jobs at the chicken factory. It's really sad to see.
Ahh... Sun Valley. Glad I managed to avoid working there.
I used to speak to a lot of these ‘immigrants’ in my old job and they were on the whole more polite, harder working and generally better people than a lot of the locals.
When I moved out of my first rented property after I graduated, the landlady got some builders in to basically tidy the place up a bit. Polish guys, barely spoke any English.
They were the nicest politest group you ever met. Tidy, super hard working, frequently there by 7.30am and working til gone 5. They did a brilliant job.
Along with the shortage of lorry drivers and healthcare staff, the government won't invest / fund training opportunities to 'grow our own' trained staff, instead they'll start making 'temporary' relaxations on immigration rules in those sectors to alleviate the pressure, and then before you know it we'll be back to square one.
Nothing surer Pieface.
Telling them to basically ‘sod off back home’ has been a massive mistake that can be seen in the understaffed shops, the rotting food in the fields and the constant advertising of jobs at the chicken factory. It’s really sad to see.
It's tragic. As well as the truly awful things it says about us as a country (nasty, inhospitable, racist, small-minded, petty), the bottom line is that it is economically unsustainable.
If farmers are watching their crops rot in the fields then they're also watching their profits evaporate. If pubs, shops and hotels in the Lakes and Scotland can't get enough staff to open then its not long before they'll be boarded up.
So now we've got the laughable situation where even that **** at Wetherspoons is asking for the immigrants to be allowed back as he can't run his business without them
What he expected to happen, I've no idea. But a dose of reality is required from government.
Will economic reality actually trump ideology in Brexit Britain?
What do you think?
We're going to see a lot of businesses folding
and then before you know it we’ll be back to square one.
I doubt we'll make it back to square one, that would be awesome, though.
and then before you know it we’ll be back to square one.
Getting back to square one is based on the typically arrogant assumption that people would want to come back here in the first place.
Given the message we've sent out (just **** off!!) and the hoops we now expect people to jump through, simply for the pleasure of becoming a second class citizen, that is by no means a given
we’ll be back to square one.
Yes, but this time with people less invested in their new country and with decidedly shittier conditions.
Looking in from the outside, the UK looks like a pathetic mess.
Not looking forward to visiting friends and family.
Yes, but this time with people less invested in their new country and with decidedly shittier conditions.
Yup, we have employers (some very Brexity and with the ear of government) clamouring to let "workers" back in... but they don't want to let "people" in. Second class workers with no right to make a life here and become just another person living here, like me, or you.
Along with the shortage of lorry drivers and healthcare staff, the government won’t invest / fund training opportunities to ‘grow our own’ trained staff, instead they’ll start making ‘temporary’ relaxations on immigration rules in those sectors to alleviate the pressure, and then before you know it we’ll be back to square one.
For the migrants, it'll be square 1.5, however we'll all be stuck without our freedom of movement and all the other rights. Our kids won't be working seasons in ski resorts or whatever because there's no need - plenty of other EU citizens to do those things. The EU has lost what, 12% of its freely mobile migrant workforce? We've lost 100%.
Of course there is a "local" workforce available in the lakes. Do you really want to claim no unemployment in Carlisle or Workington?
The issue is both low wages and seasonal work.
The answer is a proper minimum wage and for consumers to pay the realistic costs.
Do you really want to claim no unemployment in Carlisle or Workington?
Square pegs, round holes. Not everyone is a good fit for any job.
Do you really want to claim no unemployment in Carlisle or Workington?
Funnily enough TJ, we were discussing this exact point with the owner of the pub we stayed at, who can't get any staff. His reply:
"Try getting from Workington to Ullswater for a 6am start if you don't own a car"
If those hospitality jobs were year round on £20 an hour how long would they be vacant?
It's not just about pay, it's about getting the right staff who are able, willing and suitable for the role. I think it's a bit insulting to people who work in hospitality or agriculture to suggest that any person currently unemployed can step into such a role, do it well, and stick with it.
Not going to happen. Stack up a UK holiday vs. a foreign one, likely with better weather, but for a similar cost. There's demand at the moment but that's not going to last. I grew up in a seaside town before large scale migration of workers was a thing and the place, after the large manufacturing operation there shut down, is completely on its arse. It's totally in the grip of the tourist industry which provides low paid work for 6 months of the year at best and always has done. The view might be nice but it's cold comfort in November when you're skint.
Carlisle has a population of 100k or thereabouts. If 5% of them are unemployed, that's 5k people. It's 50 miles to Ambleside or 1.5 hours on a train. I don't think you can necessarily blame the unemployed of Carlisle for not being in a position to do those jobs - that's a pretty Tory-ish attitude if you don't mind me pointing that out.
And they don't pay £20/hour for a reason. If the staff costs were that high how expensive do you think the prices for those businesses would be? Would you or I be able to use them?
To say there is no local workforce is just wrong. thats the point I was making.
Where did I blame them? I didn't
the problem remains low wages and seasonal work. Not a lack of people.
Of course if wages go up so do prices.
The problem remains low wages and seasonal work. Not a lack of people.
And logistics. Carlisle or Workington is not 'local' to the tourist hotspots where the work is. Especially when there is no public transport
TJ is IDS 😀
Nah - IDS would cut their benefits. I would increase their wages
Not a lack of people.
A missing work force doesn't mean "no people". Take nursing... there can be thousands of unemployed in the area, that doesn't mean any/many of them would be suitable or want to be nurses.
But we're being told that this is whats happening as a result of the labour shortages caused by Brexit. Its part of the Brexit Dividend, apparently.
So you really are IDS because this makes you a Brexiteer too 😛
If those hospitality jobs were year round on £20 an hour how long would they be vacant?
Permanently as it would take the cost of the stay/dinner/experience/whatever over that which customers will pay.
That’s a pretty rose-tinted view of it. I don’t disagree though, but that doesn’t answer my point about them being paid properly, because the reality is that the pay and conditions for many of these foreign workers are terrible, and below that which the local work force will accept.
What is the 'proper' level of pay? How is that determined?
Anyone worked in a kitchen? I have. I couldn't be a chef for £20 an hour for more than a week. Anyone worked in agriculture? I have, there is no role there that I want to do for more than a summer job, for any money. And I would be an awful nurse as well, no matter how much training I was given. Square peg, round holes. Getting the right staff often requires a large geographical catchment area for recruitment, not a fantasy "locals only" approach.
