That is certainly the direction of travel. However, the question is the ‘how?’
I doubt it will be ‘frictionless’ (another classic glib bit of Brexiteer bullshit).
Ironically NI is in the opposite position in Scotland, where there has been a fairly consistent majority in favour of indy for a while, but no mechanism to get to determine their future themselves as Westminster has that power.
Meanwhile in NI polls are opposed to leaving the UK, but there is a political mechanism to achieve it and Johnsons Brexit deal has managed to move NI away from rUK and closer to EU & Ireland. And so far it's just been a small shift, they move further away in July when NIP is implemented in full, and then when brexiteers get their wish to diverge further from EU regs, the people of NI will be pushed away even more.
Brexit by its very nature (especially the Johnson deal) has already started the reunification process, simply by putting NI in a customs union with Ireland & removed it from rUKs
Brexiteers & daz can deny this all they like but its already happened
And if anyone doesn't believe me point to where NI is on this diagram
Their kids will gain opportunities in the EU, but they will lose opportunities in the UK.
Hardly, Ireland and Uk have reciprocal common movement arrangements already (CTA) moving between the two is fairly seamless
I prefer ‘appeaser’ to ‘apologist’.
Neither an appeaser or apologist, just someone who has accepted it and moved on. I've got zero interest in viewing every single thing that happens in the UK through the lens of remain/leave because it's irrelevant, and I really don't understand the obsession with trying to say 'we told you so'. It's a waste of time and energy, and there are now more important things to be worrying about than something that's gone and won't be returning.
It also does a disservice to issues like peace in NI. It's one thing that contributes to the problem, but not all of it, or even a major driver. How does saying 'well if we'd stayed in the EU it would all be ok now' (which is incorrect in any case) solve anything? It doesn't, it just deflects from the real issues and obstructs the solutions.
It’s one thing that contributes to the problem, but not all of it, or even a major driver.
Why isn't it a major driver!?
The DUP say it is,
https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/belfast-riots-north-belfast-dup-20340506
the PSNI say it is,
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55827679
even the NI secretary says it is...
https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2021-04-08/executive-to-meet-after-night-of-violence-in-beflast
the Loylasist Cominties Council said there had been a “spectacular collective failure” to understand their anger over Brexit and other issues, and the border protocol must be renegotiated. Critics of the departure deal’s Northern Ireland protocol say a border is in effect in the Irish Sea, leaving unionists feeling betrayed.
“We have repeatedly urged HM Government, political leaders and Institutions to take seriously our warnings of the dangerous consequences of imposing this hard border on us and the need for earnest dialogue to resolve matters. We reiterate that message now,” the LCC said.
The arrangements between Northern Ireland and GB are being changed without the consent of the people of Northern Ireland. This goes against what they were promised in the GFA, and against what the UK PM personally promised them. Pretending that is not a major driver of the current tensions, when all involved say otherwise… is, well…
Of course there were ways to minimise the changes to arrangements, and avoid the fresh destabilisation, and still leave the EU. So you can argue that Brexit, and the vote to Leave the EU, need not have led to increased tensions, and also that we could try now to move Ireland and GB closer together again to facilitate NI being closer to both, rather than having to make the Hobson’s choice of where to put new borders… or we can hold our hands up and pretend that whatever will be will be, and would have happened anyway, even when those involved say otherwise. There is no inevitability to all this, key Conservatives have chosen the current path in order to gain control of their party and the reigns of power.
It’s one thing that contributes to the problem, but not all of it, or even a major driver.
Doubling down on your utter cluelessness.
Ireland has benefited massively from EU membership - there's a nice summary here - https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/about-us/impact-of-EU-membership-on-Ireland_en
A couple of interesting extract from that page:
Single Market access helps create jobs as Irish exporters can sell more easily and cheaply into lucrative global markets like Canada, Japan, South Korea and Singapore thanks to international EU trade agreements.
Ireland will receive significant funding from a €5.37 billion Brexit Adjustment Reserve created to support regions and sectors worst affected by Brexit.
There was a time when it was clearly in the inhabitants of NI's interest to stay in the UK - outside of Dublin, Ireland was a pretty poor country, and the influence of the Catholic Church was fairly malign. But the economy has improved, and the power of the church has waned, so a united Ireland is rather more attractive than it was. Obviously, as many have pointed out, there is a lot more to this than economics. But like Brexiters, hardline loyalists tend to be older, and will have less influence as they die off. It's unlikely to be a smooth path to unification, but it will probably happen.
I’ve got zero interest in viewing every single thing that happens in the UK through the lens of remain/leave because it’s irrelevant,
Classic.
Nothing bad is ever the fault of Brexit according to daz.
It really is that simple. Once you know and understand this, the 'angle' in every single one of his posts is the same.
Apparently we must never mention Brexit in a negative sense for fear of offending the people who voted for it without understanding what 'it' is.
Nothing to see here. Move on. Etc.
Apparently we must never mention Brexit in a negative sense for fear of offending the people who voted for it without understanding what ‘it’ is.
That's really not it at all.
onewheelgood
Full MemberIreland has benefited massively from EU membership
Sure, but, so has the UK and yet, and yet...
When northern ireland leaves the UK it won't be about whether or not they'll benefit from EU membership.
That’s really not it at all.
What is it, then?
As the original resident STW 'Brexit Apologist' what is your insight?
Apparently we must never mention Brexit in a negative sense for fear of offending the people who voted for it without understanding what ‘it’ is.
I didn’t get that. Calling strawman (again)
I haven’t followed/read this thread fully but if I were to try and steelman dazh’s argument (latterly) it would look something like:
1. I am saying that Brexit is done so what’s the point in remainers remoaning?
2. I am saying that regular contributors here are ‘ecstatic’ about the failure or perceived failure of Brexit and don’t really care about the people/economy/the country/the future. I am saying that they instead care only about their spiteful pleasure/petty moaning/point-scoring.
3. I am saying that most every piece of bad news is seized upon by these same people who then attempt to make blame it entirely on Brexit*
4. I am saying that Brexit isn’t the cause of problems. I am saying that Nationalism is the problem, of which Brexit is merely a symptom
5. I prefer to focus on Brexit ‘positives’ from my perspective (for example, I take pleasure in knowing that the meat-farming/animal export/fishing industries are likely taking a hit)
END.
*(2,3) I take as dazh strawmanning or employing gross hyberbole/projection (delete as applicable).
(5) I have a suspicion that this approach leaves dazh vulnerable to projection. ie ‘I feel that a group of STW remainers here focus on Brexit ‘negatives’ because from their perspective they take pleasure in knowing/feeling that it’s going badly’
And if anyone doesn’t believe me point to where NI is on this diagram
Hmm, I was going to say in the EU 'box', but then we're not in the EEA, so is it the EU Customs Union or, which feels more likely - needs it's own 'sub-set' (that I can't actually describe)?
I disagree with 4.
Daz will always bang on about it being caused by a sense of 'despair' amongst the (for want of better terminology) 'disenfranchised white working class' and that voting Leave was a gigantic '**** you' to the 'system'. And, so long as Johnson can keep perpetuating the preposterous lie that he is 'sticking it to the elite' then the people above will keep voting for him. But we are not allowed to call this 'stupidity' - even though it clearly is. Daz doesn't bring nationalism into it that much from what I can see. Nationalism is just an insurance policy for Johnson and his cronies.
Daz's idea is that you should not point out people's mistakes because that makes them more resentful towards the 'elites' they are supposedly trying to 'stick it to'. And that they will retreat into the comforting blanket of nationalism if you try.
My opinion is that you never give populists/extremists an inch on their lies. Because if you appease extremism it just wants more. Johnson's tenure has been marked by flying of controversial and/or ludicrous policies in an attempt to gauge how willingvto be deceived the population is. He has been surprised by the results. If he is not checked it will carry on.
99% of people who voted for Leave will suffer some kind of loss as a result. I want to tie it to Brexit wherever possible. The handwringers go on about 'education' as if it is telling kids in school that 'if it is too good to be true it probably is' and that is enough. I say the 'education' here is the school of hard knocks 'we' have created for ourselves. Unfortunately a lot of these people need to see the consequences of their actions in their own lives, pockets etc. And I want the reason (Brexit, brexit, brexit) ramming down their throats until they realise.
Maybe then they will wake up and start to help make good their error.
@dazh I hope that mine was a respectful and respectable effort to steelman your argument? Would be pleased to get your feedback/corrections on 1-5 if you get the opportunity.
I’m convinced that everyone’s opinion here is interesting, but only if those opinions/motives are correctly understood. Misrepresentation is, in my mind, an unnecessary evil*
*Some politicians/grifters/sociopaths out there may disagree, as (often serial) misrepresentation of their opponents has been shown to further their cause/reap them ‘rewards’ in some form or other.
And so far it’s just been a small shift, they move further away in July when NIP is implemented in full,
That'll make marching season more flammable than usual.
Misrepresentation is, in my mind, an unnecessary evil*
Not if you are dealing with, in effect, brainwashing via social media and mainstream media. You say it in your second paragraph.
*Some politicians/grifters out there may disagree, as (often serial) misrepresentation has been shown to further their cause/reap rewards.
Cummings cynically realised this. It isn't about the truth, it is about as short a message as you can manage and repeating it over and over again.
It needs ramming down people's throats, over and over again.
Cummings cynically realised this. It isn’t about the truth, it is about as short a message as you can manage and repeating it over and over again.
Evidence of the above is key. Along with a useful and respected platform. Otherwise you may find yourself using as short a message as you can manage and
ramming down people’s throats, over and over again.
Evidence of the above is key.
I still can't work out how to post pictures in this forum, so perhaps you might do the honours?
It is a big red bus and it has lies written down the side of it...😉
It is a big red bus and it has lies written down the side of it…
It didn’t:
Hmm, I was going to say in the EU ‘box’, but then we’re not in the EEA, so is it the EU Customs Union or, which feels more likely – needs it’s own ‘sub-set’ (that I can’t actually describe)?
Actually it's a bit weird, there's a sort of schengen, with a cta between Ireland £
& rUK, so that's 2 mini boxes
And NI is still mostly in the CU & in the SM for goods
The difference with the rUK is that it has fully left the CU and has a almost entirely left SM (sort of in a little but via Johnsons very weak deal)
In July NI moves almost further in to CU & thus further from rUK
Is UK Gov plan still to abandon NIP?
Either way July will be interesting*, especially in light of how the Holyrood elections go & what might hagen after.
*Interesting politically, on the ground in NI it may be explosive
1. I am saying that Brexit is done so what’s the point in remainers remoaning?
Well it isn't done at all, as this has shown, there's no deal for finance either, the deal hasn't even been ratified by EU Parliament yet, we've probably got a decade of negotiations to go
2. I am saying that regular contributors here are ‘ecstatic’ about the failure or perceived failure of Brexit and don’t really care about the people/economy/the country/the future. I am saying that they instead care only about their spiteful pleasure/petty moaning/point-scoring.
The mess created by brexiteers isn't going to be ignored, just to spare the feelings of those that voted for it.
3. I am saying that most every piece of bad news is seized upon by these same people who then attempt to make blame it entirely on Brexit*
There's an element of that, but brexit has managed to effect almost every aspect of our economy and government, it will be a factor for syne time
4. I am saying that Brexit isn’t the cause of problems. I am saying that Nationalism is the problem, of which Brexit is merely a symptom
Brexit is both the cause and the symptom, there's a feedback loop, Johnsons Brexit majority stokes nationalism in the devolved nations and gives the right of the tory carte blanche to remould the country as they see fit
5. I prefer to focus on Brexit ‘positives’ from my perspective (for example, I take pleasure in knowing that the meat-farming/animal export/fishing industries are likely taking a hit)
Taking pleasure from livelihoods collapsing?
That’ll make marching season more flammable than usual.
This might be an appropriate soundtrack, in an ironic, retro way
3. I am saying that most every piece of bad news is seized upon by these same people who then attempt to make blame it entirely on Brexit*
Blimey there's way too much obsession with what I think on this thread. I guess that's the price for not conforrming. Anyway this is the key one w.r.t NI. The NI problem has been raging for centuries, with the differences between loyalists and republicans historically entrenched in almost every aspect of NI politics and culture. And yet suddenly it's all to do with brexit? I don't doubt that it has destabilised the situation, it clearly has, but the way some remainers have jumped on the issue because it suits their agenda is pretty shocking. I think a lot of people, especially English remainers should keep their noses out of it, because it's got f*** all to do with them.
As for the other issues p7, what it boils down to is that continually beating yourselves up about how terrible everything is is a total waste of time. By all means point out the problems, but do so in a way where the solution is not 'we should never have left' or 'we should rejoin', because that's pointless. It's a bit like when your football team loses a big match, like a cup final or relegation decider. You sit in the pub after pissed off and raking over the missed opportunities and dodgy refereeing decisions with your mates in an attempt to make sense of it, and then the next day you get up and go to work and forget about it. Well what I see here and elsewhere are people from the losing side sat in the pub 4 years later still going on about it to each other, reinforcing all those opinions in some vain hope that it didn't actually happen. It's not healthy, and it certainly won't solve anything.
think a lot of people, especially English remainers should keep their noses out of it, because it’s got f*** all to do with them.
Yes we absolutely mustn't comment on NI, because erm...... its not part of the UK??
Taking pleasure from livelihoods collapsing?
We've been over this before. I'm not going to mourn the collapse of the fishing industry, because it's one of the most destructive, enviromentally damaging industries in the world today. I'd rather that happened by people not eating fish, but if brexit helps then that's fine by me. It's bad for people who work in the industry, but then the end of WWII was bad for people working in the ethnic cleansing industry. Some things can't be defended because they provide jobs, and the fishing industry is one of them IMO.
I think a lot of people, especially English remainers should keep their noses out of it, because it’s got f*** all to do with them.
Why especially 'English Remainers'?
Also - how do you know 'English Remainers' don't have friends, family etc in NI?
You're endless quest for mitigation that excuses Leavers what they have done makes you adopt some pretty daft stance when you step back.
But you are the consomethinge Brexit Apologist and have been all along, so I'm not expecting any change now.
Why especially ‘English Remainers’?
The problems in NI are hugely complex and extremely sensitive. It took years of secret negotiations to get to the GFA, and probably still requires a lot of unseen work to maintain that stability. Do you think a load of hand wringing english remainers adopting it as the cause celebre is going to help or hinder that process? Here's an idea, if you're so confident in your view why don't you go to Belfast and stand by the barricades with an EU flag and see what happens? I think we can all imagine the results.
And yet suddenly it’s all to do with brexit?
The people who're keen to stoke division in NI will use anything and everything. Brexit is pretty much a gift-wrapped excuse to highlight perceived or real differences. As people have mentioned, one of the outcomes of the GFA was to create a very finely balanced status quo. Brexit has given some folk all the excuse they need to unbalance it.
So in that respect, Brexit is both the casus belli for the present unrest, and merely the latest tool to be used by people who see violence as the way to get what they want.
Here’s an idea, if you’re so confident in your view why don’t you go to Belfast and stand by the barricades with an EU flag and see what happens?
I'll do that if you stand the other side with a union jack 🙂
On a serious note, as someone who spent a lot of time in NI, during and after the troubles, and who's been far too close for comfort to two IRA bombs, I'd rather that the GFA wasn't binned for the sake of an idealogical project that I think is a load of old bollocks.
What I'd like is for the UK government to respect what is at stake here and take it seriously. It can't or won't do this at the moment, and we all know why. Because if it did it would have to acknowledge that Brexit was always going to deliver this, so they try and pretend it isn't happening while NI slides backwards into conflict, their hands tied by their own bullshit, separatist ideology.
They are literally crossing their fingers and hoping it will just go away. It won't. Its going to get a lot worse as we head towards the marching season and I fully expect that Westminster will sit impotently and watch it (literally) explode
If you don’t read Daz’s posts, it’s actually quite difficult to find anyone saying the violence in NI “is all about Brexit”
Can find plenty suggesting Brexit is acting as a catalyst however
Maybe I missed something further back
I guess that’s the price for not conforrming.
That made me laugh. Don’t point out the ongoing work required just to try and mitigate the damage caused by this Vote Leave government… be all non-conformist and defend them.
Dazh will now be back at school full time so I guess the thread will quieten down.
It’s bad for people who work in the industry, but then the end of WWII was bad for people working in the ethnic cleansing industry
😳
Bit early on a Monday to be resorting to Godwin
That made me laugh. Don’t point out the ongoing work required just to try and mitigate the damage caused by this Vote Leave government… be all non-conformist and defend them.
Funny isn't it?
The positions people can easily be backed into when they are defending the indefensible.🙈
The death of the UK fishing industry won’t result in less fishing, only in less fishing that provides a tax revenue for UKG. The slack will be taken up by EU boats who, whilst they’ll have to pay UKG for the privilege, probably won’t generate as much revenue for UKG as if UK boats, generating UK jobs, were doing it.
Here’s an idea, if you’re so confident in your view why don’t you go to Belfast and stand by the barricades with an EU flag and see what happens?
Hold your horses. You've got to get yourself over to Grimsby and compare the crew of a fishing boat to einstatzgruppen. Shall we see what happens there? Or will your much vaunted "Common Man's Obi Wan Kenobi" skills prevail?
Stay tuned - next time on "The World According to Daz":
Five similarities between dairy farming and the Khmer Rouge...
🤪
Here’s an idea, if you’re so confident in your view why don’t you go to Belfast and stand by the barricades with an EU flag and see what happens?
Why don’t you tell again what your opponent’s views are view is? You’re on a roll...
Blimey there’s way too much obsession with what I think on this thread. I guess that’s the price for not conforrming.
Self-flattery will get you there. Also strawmanning* and being called on it.
obsession
*Try ‘scrutiny’.
The sad thing is that I actually agree with a number of your thoughts about the ultimate material usefulness of remainers blowing off steam on a ‘Brexit’ thread
Where we part ways is where you repeatedly show so little respect to the others by mangling their words and inserting motives to then attack with similar rhetoric to the type you inserted. It may help or harm your discussion by doing so but it definitely doesn’t come over as entirely honest.
It’s bad for people who work in the industry, but then the end of WWII was bad for people working in the ethnic cleansing industry
Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and people in Rwanda might have different views on that. Actually, now I think about it, the Uighur muslims might also take issue with your insinuation too. And some ethnic groups in the former Yugoslav republic.
Where we part ways is where you repeatedly show so little respect to the others by mangling their words and inserting motives to then attack with similar rhetoric to the type you inserted. It may help or harm your discussion by doing so but it definitely doesn’t come over as entirely honest.
Such as a few weeks ago when I posted a comment about Daz 'defending the poor, misguided, teeth-baring racists'*.
*May not be word for word because I can't be arsed to check.
Now it would have been obvious that my use of the word 'poor' in that post was sarcastic (lowest form of wit, but a form of wit nonetheless). However daz deliberately clipped it when quoting me and presented it thus:
defending the poor
Which he then launched into a monologue about defending 'the poor' from exploitation, sense of disenfranchisement, blah-blah-blah. All the now familiar slobber.
This willingness to selectively quote and play games now just has me interpreting daz as a wind-up merchant who likes the idea of the masses 'sticking it to the elite*' a bit too much and has become a Brexit Sympathiser to a certain extent. You might say 'Quisling'.
*The elite in this sense not being the old elite (aristocrats, old money) or even the new elite (brexit gravy train passengers) but usually the people one rung 'above'. Nicely visible and ready made for a bit of envy.
I don't think Dazh is a Brexit sympathiser. I think he's looking at the wider societal picture, and I agree with him. I'm still utterly horrified by it, but it's only one part of the country and the society in which we live.
And yet suddenly it’s all to do with brexit?
The problems aren't to do with Brexit; but the potential imminent demise of the steps taken to ease them is entirely to do with Brexit.
The problems aren’t to do with Brexit; but the potential imminent demise of the steps taken to ease them is entirely to do with Brexit.
Very well put molgrips.
I might quibble about the "potential" bit... but as the UK, Irish and EU politicians could choose to implement a new relationship that would better mitigate the damage, it would be churlish to do so. In theory the demise can be reversed/avoided even though the UK is no longer an EU member... but there absolutely isn't the will to do so (I'd argue predominately on the UK government side, but others might say that's just a matter of perspective).
you repeatedly show so little respect to the others by mangling their words and inserting motives to then attack with similar rhetoric to the type you inserted.
This is an internet forum no? Where else can you be called a nazi appeaser/sympathiser for saying we should maybe listen to what millions of brexit voters are telling us? I don't take anything anyone says on here seriously, let alone take offence, neither should anyone else. 😏
I think he’s looking at the wider societal picture,
Indeed. I have a general view that political and economic trends work on much larger cycles than elections and other short term stuff. It's generational really. What affected our grandparents and parents is different to what affects us, and same for our kids. Brexit is just another generational shift, maybe a precursor to a larger transformation in capitalism and geo-politics driven by much larger forces than trade policy. The pandemic has proved that it's not the be all and end all, and climate change will make it look utterly trivial. If we can't cope with brexit, then we're in for a massive shock in the next 30-50 years.
don’t take anything anyone says on here seriously, let alone take offence, neither should anyone else
See what you did just there, again?
I didn’t say you were being offensive. Nor that you were offending people. I said that you come over as dishonest (ie arguing in bad faith by misrepresenting people). So instead of addressing my question/observation you simply pseudo-responded by setting up a strawman with ‘offended’ written in it.
That could be straight out of the Piers Morgan playbook.
Piers- You only pretend to like vegan sausage rolls because they are woke and trendy, hahah be honest they taste disgusting!
Vegan: well I actually think they taste pretty good, and I think you are straw-manning both me and ‘vegans’ I never said...
Piers:- (interrupting) No need to get offended!!!!, we’re all grown up here. Well some of us are hahahah. But just be honest.
Vegan - I’m not ‘offended’, I was pointing out that you seem to be arguing in bad faith
Piers - It’s just a TV show , no-one gets offended, your type call me a Nazi all of the time
Vegan - But I didn’...
Piers - Look, I know you lot like the fluffy wuffy animals, and we all do, I just think you’re taking it a bit far that’s all..
Vegan - 😶
Piers - (smugwinface)
Whether by design or default, I can’t tell, and I haven’t spent much time following this thread. And I don’t know if you actually know that you’re doing it. But it works the same either way.
