For all the '**** em' crowd. You do realise that these people likely have kids or other dependents, who will suffer because of this? You also realise that people made mistakes and are admitting to that?
I consider myself left of centre because I care about the plight of others. I still care, even if they vote Tory or Brexit. Because I know how easily fooled most people are, but mostly because I am compassionate and not a total bastard.
The '**** em' crowd really are a wet dream to those people who have taken over the Conservative party, aren't they. Divide and rule was never more true.
They voted to eat shit, it is the will of the people. To 'help' would be 'undemocratic'.
a wife goes back to her abusive husband
do you blame the wife, or the husband?
any energy should be about fighter against the people in charge who got us into this mess. Not the general public.
They voted for all of us to eat shit whether or not we wanted to eat shit.
Therefore, while me and my kids won't enjoy eating our portion of shit, I'll ****ing well enjoy them eating their portion of shit.
But we are such a patronising metropolitan elite on here. We'd only be patronising them more by trying to explain the errors of their ways....
No, it would be unpatriotic and undemocratic to undermine the will of the people by telling them a little thing called 'the truth'.
In any case there will be yummy bowls of 'sovrunty' to eat with lashings of 'two world wars and one world cup' on the side.
🤣
They voted to eat shit
They didn't, though. They voted to make the country better, or so they thought. They were manipulated.
Therefore, while me and my kids won’t enjoy eating our portion of shit, I’ll **** well enjoy them eating their portion of shit.
You lack compassion. That's not going to help any of us out of this mess, is it? Looks like there are arseholes on both sides of this.
Apart from the racists.
And the protest voters.
Etc.
Thank you alcolepone and molgrips... this was all taking on a very depressing tone.
a wife goes back to her abusive husband
do you blame the wife, or the husband?
A bloke buys a nicked stereo off another bloke down the pub. He knows it is nicked but he doesn't care because it is cheap and easy. The other bloke trousers the money then goes off and burgles another house.
Do you blame the bloke selling the obviously dodgy stereo alone or do you apportion some of the blame to the willing participant in crime who knows it is nicked?
Not sure why one straw man is better than the other here, but I would say mine is closer to the mark in any case.
You also realise that people made mistakes and are admitting to that?
Bit like the drink driver who killed someone and is now full of remorse, doesn't change the fact they made a very bad decision which is now impacting them and others.
I'm with the **** em brigade. Ignorant and thoughtless (these are descriptions not insults) people made a stupid choice which is now going to screw them the most. I have little sympathy. As for the Tories wet dream, I doubt it, many of us feel as betrayed by them as the 52%. It'll be a long time before I could even consider voting Tory again and I doubt I'm alone. Hell I voted for Corbyn last time and he's the antitheist of everything I believe as he was a better option.
Meanwhile the 52% who have generally screwed themselves will waddle back to Labour expecting to be looked after again despite their own collusion in their downfall.
They didn’t, though. They voted to make the country better, or so they thought. They were manipulated.
They didn't, though. They voted to make their own lot better, preferably at the expense of others they disliked (foreigners, leftie liberals etc.)
They lack compassion and will continue to try to improve their lot at the expense of others.
They didn’t, though. They voted to make their own lot better, preferably at the expense of others they disliked (foreigners, leftie liberals etc.)
They lack compassion and will continue to try to improve their lot at the expense of others.
They love socialism, so long as it is for them and no one else, particularly if they are somehow different. You might almost call it Nationalist Socialism. If only there was a catchy shorthand for that.
Not true at all. A lot of people believed that the NHS would be getting more money, for example. This isn't a selfish motive is it?
It seems rather odd that people would be in favour of solidarity and togetherness (i.e. the EU) but displaying such divisive behaviour at the same time.
Basically, you are hating those who don't agree with you based on sweeping generalisations. This makes you no better or even actually worse than a large portion of Brexit voters. I am just as angry about all this as you all are, trust me. But lashing out and acting like a total bastard is not the solution. It feels silly to paraphrase Star Wars but really - don't give in to your anger and hate.
lashing out and acting like a total bastard is not the solution.
I dunno. It worked for the snoutflakes.
Not true at all. A lot of people believed that the NHS would be getting more money, for example. This isn’t a selfish motive is it?
Nope, not at all.
But then they were shown, advised, informed, whatever that this wasn't going to happen and they refused to accept it, in a lot of cases because they refuse to countenance that they were wrong / fooled. It's like the pensioner that is scammed out of his pension but doesn't tell anyone because the idea of admitting the error is worse to them than the loss of the money. Call it stupid pride, but in the end that's the point where I lost patience.
Do I want people to suffer for it. No, I wish no-one had to but I didn't want this, I didn't vote for it, I told anyone that I could that they were making a mistake, and now the pigeons are coming home to roost, why should I feel obliged to step in. You didn't want my help or advice then, why do you want it now?
I'm with molgrips on this, no amount of "**** them they voted for this" is going to help anyone. My dad voted for brexit despite me telling him to ask his grandchildren what they wanted, he passed away in 2018 so no good telling him to chew on a shit sandwich.
But then they were shown, advised, informed, whatever that this wasn’t going to happen and they refused to accept it
Yeah because there is an absolute crisis of trust in politics. That means it's easy to dismiss things you subconsciously don't like the sound of. We all do this, even you and me.
No-one likes to admit they're wrong, even to themselves.
why should I feel obliged to step in
Humanity? Compassion? Do those things matter to you? If you want people to admit, even to themselves, that they were wrong, or maybe change their mind, you have to make it acceptable and easy for them to do so. Your animosity creates a barrier to this - if you act like you despise them for voting Brexit all it will do is strengthen their resolve and their resistance to alternative ideas.
Not true at all. A lot of people believed that the NHS would be getting more money, for example. This isn’t a selfish motive is it?
The ones I know (predominantly my, and my wife's', families) mainly believed the NHS would get more money because we could get rid of all the freeloading foreigners who were stealing healthcare they weren't entitled to - on the grounds that they were foreigners and or non-white.
So yes, still a selfish motive.
This was despite evidence contrary to this that was freely available.
It seems rather odd that people would be in favour of solidarity and togetherness (i.e. the EU) but displaying such divisive behaviour at the same time.
I've traditionally been left leaning and believed in solidarity and togetherness and thought most other people in this country did; I was wrong as it seems 52% don't believe in that at all.
I feel like I was swimming along in a co-ordinated shoal, a few apex predators around the edges, but working together we could look after each other and evade most of them.
Then I looked again and half the shoal have evolved into piranha, except they hadn't. They were always piranha and it was my naivety and wishful thinking that portrayed them otherwise.
They have always just looked after number one and I need to evolve to survive - look after me and my own and let others sink or swim.
I didn't make the rules and, for the time being at least, I'm stuck in this pond.
So you only believe in solidarity when everyone else does too? Don't you see a flaw in that idea? I don't think you really believe in it at all, in that case, if you're prepared to abandon the cause so easily.
Whatever your moral position, the reality is that FEA (**** Em Attitude) is going to make things worse, not better. What do you want to do here? Reinforce the gap between remainers and Brexiters? Gloat? Humiliate them? Entrench division in society? Because that's what FEA is going to do, in fact that's what got us here in the first place. **** foreigners, **** the metropolitan elites etc. So your **** Brexiters attitude is not that different, from a moral perspective and certainly not helping matters from a practical perspective.
You're right. Sorry.
Let's give them an award instead. I suggest the Campaign to Unify the Nation Trophy.
So you only believe in solidarity when everyone else does too? Don’t you see a flaw in that idea? I don’t think you really believe in it at all, in that case, if you’re prepared to abandon the cause so easily.
So you suggest I adopt their ways of thinking to be in solidarity with them?
That's what I'm partially suggesting.
Self interest before anything else.
* foreigners, * the metropolitan elites etc.
I'd rather not show solidarity with that way of thinking though, thank you.
I'm not displaying a **** them attitude, I wish them no ill, but I don't wish myself ill just to benefit them either.
Sometimes you have to step back and let things take their course, i am not going round my extended brexity family telling them i dont give a * i simply no longer point out the shit show or give a * about what happens to them.
Sometimes uou need to cease being the enemy and let the real enemy become obvious... if certain elements of society can not recognise that real enemy and react (vote) accordingly - well there is nothing i can do.
But we are such a patronising metropolitan elite on here
Not all of us, some of us a patronising rural elite.
This makes you no better or even actually worse than a large portion of Brexit voters.
Well that sounds like victim blaming and utter rubbish. You're damn right I'm angry, people who voted for Brexit pretty much all did it for selfish and nasty reasons, Brexit has pretty much no redeeming features. They voted to screw themselves and everybody along with them and you can't even argue it was with the best of intentions because it wasn't.
Am I going to actively avoid paying tax, no I'll continue to pay what I owe but I'm not going to be voting for any tax rises anytime soon to support the people who voted for Brexit or lose a lot of sleep over their corresponding drop in lifestyle. Of course the main irony is the people they voted in to enable the Brexit debacle are the least likely to support them in the long run, even by Tory standards.
You also realise that people made mistakes and are admitting to that?
Yes. But far far too few and far far too late.
A lot of people believed that the NHS would be getting more money, for example. This isn’t a selfish motive is it?
But the elephant in the room is,
Where are they now? Are they writing to their MPs about how they've been duped? Are they on vox pop interviews on TV? Are they (gods forbid) hitting social media expressing their upset, remorse and anger? Or are they pottering round Sainsbury's whining that there's no strawberries and blaming it on covid?
You talk like there's been a seismic change. There hasn't. We still voted the ****ers back in at the last GE. The ignorant are still ignorant despite having had the last five years to learn something ("project fear!!1!"), the racists are still racist, and science still hasen't found a cure for stupid. And everyone else, the vast majority of the country in all likelihood, simply stopped caring five seconds after they walked out of the ballot room.
It's gonna get much, much worse before it gets any better. Mark my words. This country is like a substance addict, it's going to have to hit rock bottom and start digging before it realises that it wants to start sorting its life out while it's still clinging desperately on to one.
Argentina here we come. Although a century later and there still not sorted....
The ones I know (predominantly my, and my wife’s’, families) mainly believed the NHS would get more money because we could get rid of all the freeloading foreigners who were stealing healthcare they weren’t entitled to – on the grounds that they were foreigners and or non-white.
So yes, still a selfish motive.
A million times this.
There was always, ALWAYS the undercurrent of 'foreign freeloaders' when the NHS was brought up in discussion.
I'm not actively wishing anything bad on people, I just don't give a shit if it does.
Early on this summer my son whacked his tennis racket on the ground in anger when we playing, bending it out of shape. He has shown tendencies in the past to be a bad loser and have tantrums when playing sport and he's had numerous warnings. Did I go "there there little cherub, you've damaged your own tennis racket so I'll reward you by instantly buying a new one"?
Did I ****. I told him how stupid, self-defeating and childish his actions were and that he wouldn't be getting a new one until he needed it because of growing out of the old one. He finally got a new tennis racket at Christmas and guess what.... We've played a few times since (but lockdown put paid to that) and he has been mardy at a few points, but he hasn't come close to damaging his new racket. That is because every time he had to play with the old and damaged one he was reminded of his childish tantrum and its consequences.
I see bad Brexit effects on Pro-Brexit as the same thing. If you reward childish behaviour you reinforce it. They need to play with a bent racket for a while. To remind them.
I think I'd have a lot more sympathy if they hadn't spent the last five years being insufferable gloating shits about it. "We won you lost get over it / what part of 'leave' don't you understand" etc etc.
We all lose collectively and I take no joy in that, but the schadenfreude for me would be to see their smug grins wiped from their pineapple-ringed faces. I don't want anyone to be screwed over, but I absolutely want them to come to the realisation of just how much they've ****ed things up. I want them to own it. I want them to eat humble pie. I want them to say sorry.
It'll never happen, of course. It'll still all be our fault, or covid's fault, or project fear, or a price worth paying, or short-term pain, or any other bloody excuse which absolves them of any responsibility.
^^^^
Which basically comes back, succinctly, to two words.
**** 'em.
Well the last couple of pages have been quite eye-opening. Molgrips, Kelvin and alcolepne aside, the rest of you aren't doing much to counter the stereotype of comfortable middle class people whining because their foreign holidays and retirement plans have been made a tad more difficult. Grow up FFS, you sound like the boy who takes his cricket bat home if he doesn't get to go first.
Nevermind
Grow up FFS, you sound like the boy who takes his cricket bat home if he doesn’t get to go first.
That's way too mature, my daughter had more coherent tantrums when she was three.
the rest of you aren’t doing much to counter the stereotype of comfortable middle class people whining because their foreign holidays and retirement plans have been made a tad more difficult.
That's your takeaway from this, really, just really. It's the complete opposite, we knew this was going to happen, we knew these idiots were voting for their own destruction, we knew it would kill opportunities for our kids in Europe. No one on here has mentioned holidays or retirement plans, if there's any stereotyping going on it's you doing it.
Brexit has made this country a much unpleasant place to live, it's made casual and not so casual racism more acceptable again, it's caused massive societal divisions and it will create a whole group of people who are much worse off who will continue to cause problems for the whole of society. Of course the other irony is that a lot of the expats in Spain who didn't see any need to become residents or make an effort to integrate are now finding they have to come a lot more regularly and can't get health care in the country they've done so little to contribute to and have to come back to the UK for it.
Grow up FFS
We have.
We stopped caring.
Deal with it.
They didn’t, though. They voted to make their own lot better, preferably at the expense of others they disliked (foreigners, leftie liberals etc.)They lack compassion and will continue to try to improve their lot at the expense of others.
Some of them were all of the above, but not all of them, though I have run into some who did it to 'own the libs'. These types will have the same problem as the maga brigade in a few years when they realize the government/leader they voted for still aren't 'hurting the right' people enough.
This should all come down to education as discussed earlier, but even with all the goodwill in the World some people have been nurtured to act against their own interests.
Better to just get straight to the point and actually take a leaf out of the right-wing playbook and control the message being sent to these folks.
Sometimes you have to step back and let things take their course
Sometimes uou need to cease being the enemy and let the real enemy become obvious
Giving up and letting the current state of affairs to continue happen means it will become the new normal, don't expect people to come to their senses of their own accord, the message that must be impressed upon them is all important.
Not quite right Daz, we would all like to keep on playing cricket but the guy who threw the bat over the wall into the spooky garden is now blaming us for the fact that no one can play cricket.
Well that sounds like victim blaming and utter rubbish.
You view yourself as a victim? Interesting. That suggest you think it's a deliberate campaign to damage your prospects. It's not - it's just a **** up.
Look. People are not fundamentally bad - on the whole, we're a mix of good and bad tendencies. The problem that we have is that humans draw a circle around themselves - inside the circle is considered 'us', and outside is 'them'. The only difference between the left and the right, the progressive and the conservative is where that line gets drawn. Most of us only hang around with people in a similar group to us in one way or another. Our own socio-economic group, our own regional group, our own nationality etc. So we have an inherent tendency to distrust those outside it. I think this goes back to the tribal origins of our species.
A lot of people draw the line at the border of their country, but sometimes it's their area of the country, it's often their social class. Some people draw the line around the whole of humanity. Many people on here are drawing the line between remainers and Brexiters, which is why we see the FEA and the 'brexiters think this and that'. You are hating each other because you don't understand each other's points of view. That's not to say that all points of view are equally valid - I firmly believe that brexiters are wrong, and that their viewpoint should be challenged - but you do need to understand the reasons for them holding it. Ok so maybe they don't like foreigners - why? Why are they xenophobic? And don't answer 'because they're ****s' - that's not an answer, it's an attack. If you are standing on one side of the line and shouting, then you're no different to those standing on the other side doing the same.
What dictates where we draw our lines? I think a large part of it is knowledge, experience and compassion. A great many Brexiters voted Brexit because they simply had no idea what the EU actually does, or did for us. Because they've been fed bollocks and haven't the experience and education to spot that. If you drive a bus or work in MacDs, how would you ever have an understanding of the benefits of free trade and supra-national government? It wasn't on my school curriculum, even if I had been listening.
Yes, Brexiters are to blame for our inevitable isolation and economic decline. But what are you going to do about that? They ****ed up, even if they don't realise it. So how is being an arsehole to them going to help anything? If you want to see what happens to a country when no-one listens or tries to understand each other, then look at the USA. Erase that line between 'us' and 'them' on your side and theirs. It's the only way anything is going to improve.
Im certainly not middle class living in the same one bedroom council/housing association house that ive had for the previous 25yrs and surviving on disability benefits so am I allowed to say "**** em" for Brexit?, utterly ****ing stupid thick headed wilfully ignorant ****s that rightfully deserve their faces shoved in the pile of shite that is their own making at every opportunity till they admit they were wrong.
Shout it from the rooftops if you like.
I'm not listening. I'm not interested in all the petty 'reasoning' or excuses or trying to wriggle out of responsibility.
Could.Not.Give.A.Toss
The only thing that I would be prepared to listen to would be a genuine 'sorry' and a promise not to vote ever again. When the adults can then elect other adults we might, just might, be able to put this shitshow back on the rails back to respectability.
But we all know it ain't gonna happen so.....
A gallic shrug is all I can muster.
Brexit has made this country a much unpleasant place to live, it’s made casual and not so casual racism more acceptable again
I think you need to watch the news less and stop reading certain newspapers. From where I'm standing very little has changed to make living here more or less pleasant, it's the same as it always was. The racism was always there, you just weren't looking. The only difference in the not too distant past was that it was directed at black and brown people rather than eastern europeans. The question I have is why suddenly everyone's bothered about racism post-brexit when they were content to ignore it before?
"Sometimes uou need to cease being the enemy and let the real enemy become obvious"
That's a good one. Certainly the approach I've taken with my Brexit voting uncle. Gives him the space to admit he was lied to and therefore might have been a little bit wrong. The more I let him do the talking, the more he ends up pointing the finger at the poloticians who lied to him.
There's no gain in telling someone they've been an idiot when they admit it to themselves. Never mind what we think or feel, by getting in their face you're just providing cover for Boris and Co.
If however, they persist in being a dyed in the wool, spiteful Brexidiot then **** 'em of course.
am I allowed to say “* em” for Brexit?, utterly * stupid thick headed wilfully ignorant **** that rightfully deserve their faces shoved in the pile of shite that is their own making at every opportunity till they admit they were wrong.
They won't, if you do that. How can you not get it?
Could.Not.Give.A.Toss
I do give a toss. I want a decent caring compassionate place to live in, and I'm not gonna get it if people are just screaming at each other all the time. That includes both sides of this. I'm really ****ing disappointed now, and not just with brexiters.
Brexit has made this country a much unpleasant place to live, it’s made casual and not so casual racism more acceptable again
This was from a chap at the vaccine clinic at the weekend, "Now that we're out of the EU you (he meant the Dr vaccinating him, who was Spanish, but whatever...) must be pleased not to have to vaccinate all those freeloaders, you can thank all the Brexit voters"
Now, he may have been referring to healthcare tourism, but I'm pretty sure he just meant "not white-British"
I think you need to watch the news less and stop reading certain newspapers. From where I’m standing very little has changed to make living here more or less pleasant,
Maybe you need to get out more, I got called a ***ing paddy in the 80's and for some reason again in late 2016, and a few times since, never in the years between. Wonder what might have happened????