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They'd let us back tomorrow but it would be without the rebate and we would have to join the monetary union
Bring it on. I couldn't care less how I'm paid or who I work with as long as they do their job.
Bring it on. I couldn’t care less how I’m paid or who I work with as long as they do their job.
The tossers like Rees-Mogg (not heard from that shite in a while, so assume he must be counting his winnings) used 'Vassal State' in a negative way. I would take direct rule from Brussels now and **** most of the Commons off into the river and out to sea with the rest of the effluent.
Let’s stop beating around the bush. Do we reckon this is still valid?
Yes, but the UK needs to be fixed first.
Cut Boris's balls off?
That would actually sort out a few issues in one go when you think about it.
We're not being let back in for 40 years. The best we can hope for is being thrown the odd bone.
We were rejected twice before and once brexshit has stuck its knives into agriculture and filleted the finance sector, there will be such divergence that the uk "economy" will have to take a(nother) massive kicking to align.
From the EU's side, they will give NOTHING to the UK that they can't afford to loose. Once bitten, twice shy.
John le Carré : “a poor island with scarcely a voice that would carry across the water.”
Spain will want Gibraltar, and they'll want to see us really suffer first to discourage the Catalans.
We wont go back for a while
Im sure EU would have as back, but most likely is a Norway deal, because its sellable to UK electorate and the EU
Long way to go yet, Johnson will stumble from crisis to crisis and brexits failure will be blamed on him eventually, because of there's one thing that's become clear, its thar brexit failures are always the fault of someone /thing
On fb I've seen several cut & posts explaining why fuel crisis definitely isn't the fault of brexit & leave voters cling to that desperately
I think the EU would welcome us back, but I think they'd be wary of UK "negotiations" We're in the state we're in because the EU understood full well that Johnson's tactic was to agree a deal to "get Brexit done" with an eye to wriggling out of the more uncomfortable bits later on. Which is why the EU are playing hard. They'd need to be convinced that re-entry would be honest.
I don't think it will happen though. Johnson couldn't give a flying **** about food shortages or fuel panic buying,
stop the flood of ‘winter of discontent’ stories in the news
It would help if they actually started reporting it as it should be a s*** show. But most news outlets wash over the real issue when they daren't mention that b word.
i guess Brexit is done and never to be talked about again?...notcied the BBC have removed the Brexit tab from the News page....its replaced with climate instead...
….its replaced with climate instead…
I approve. Especially with COP26 around the corner. All the tabs have Brexit stories in them anyway... you just have to insert the word into the copy yourself.
Wonder if they'll ever be investigation into the benefactors of Brexit. Farage, Bill Cash, Mogg and the others members of the ERG.
We’re not being let back in for 40 years. The best we can hope for is being thrown the odd bone.
I think we'd be mostly welcomed back in (give it a few years, perhaps) but I think @kimbers has it, it'll be in a Norway style.
We won't be let back in to the big boys decision making club again, we blew that one for a game of Fantasy Empires featuring Mad King Boris Targaryen.
notcied the BBC have removed the Brexit tab from the News page….its replaced with climate instead
Gone since around 19 September according to Twitter. Tim Davie started as Director General on 1 September. Previously, whether it was shown or not seemed to be based on where you are geographically.
UK re-joining EU was discussed extensively on the old thread.
The EU would probably accept an application to re-join but subject to UK accepting...single currency, no rebate, no privileges, no exceptions, nothing more than notional equivalence with Germany and France.
Accept all of this and more - c'mon in, the door is open but your voice won't be heard.
What a complete and utter **** mess.
If you voted for brexit - moron.
If you voted tory - idiot.
If you voted brexit and tory - rot in hell.
There was a piece on World at One yesterday about how Brexit was the cause of the shortages.
The EU would probably accept an application to re-join but subject to UK accepting…single currency, no rebate, no privileges, no exceptions, nothing more than notional equivalence with Germany and France.
They could arrange for the PM of the day to sign the rejoining documents in a railway carriage in northern France. That's the kind of level of national humiliation I could get behind.
The EU probably already has a "take it or leave it" re-entry agreement sat on a computer somewhere in Brussels. They will want no negotiation on it as the people we have to do our side of negotiations are either incompetent or dishonest (or usually both). That might change with a different PM/party in charge but I'm not sure I'd trust Starmer with that responsibility either. If we want to rejoin we need business and the electorate to be demanding it vocally and constantly and the appetite for that fight just isn't there when many businesses and people are spending all their time and energy simply keeping their heads above water financially. The current situation with energy prices is going to push a lot of heads under. If that happens to a large enough extent then maybe, just maybe, there will be a call for a change of PM/government or a rejoining of the single market, customs union and energy strategy.
frankconway
Full MemberUK re-joining EU was discussed extensively on the old thread.
The EU would probably accept an application to re-join but subject to UK accepting…single currency, no rebate, no privileges, no exceptions, nothing more than notional equivalence with Germany and France.
Nobody can be forced to accept the single currency- there's no system to do it at all. Even if there was, it'd be easy just not to meet the criteria. The euro's something you have to jump through hoops just to be allowed to use even if you want to.
You can be forced to commit to joining it, like Sweden did in 1994.
For those thinking that the UK would be welcome back, consider how EU public opinion would view that and the impact on any politicians agreeing to it.
People around me in Euroland feel that Brexit has had very little negative impact on Europe, as many benefitting as have lost out. Relocation of businesses to this side of the channel and repatriating economically active people has compensated a small loss in exports. Removing the British right from the parliament and conseil has allowed the passing of measures that failed to get through while Britain was a member. The feeling is that the successful Covid crisis management, especially the financial measures taken, have happened because the financially conservative countries no longer have a champion. Brits slagged of the handling of the Greek crisis whilst opposing any reasonable solutions, Germany had an ally in imobility. This time the necessary has been done.
Those pesky Brits very vocally buggering off has shifted EU politics in a way many, including me, approuve.
I'm beginning to see the silver lining.
Three flights, one expulsion order, two visa applications and payments later my friend's son is in Manchester but now they've announced all classes will be virtual. I'll spare you their opinions.
For those thinking that the UK would be welcome back, consider how EU public opinion would view that and the impact on any politicians agreeing to it.
It would boost the EU's credibility beyond measure to demonstrate that one of its biggest members quit then came crawling back tail between legs. And of course the re-entrant UK would have far less influence and it'd have to agree to all the commitments it didn't before. It would be a huge and possibly definitive victory. And it also removes the very slim possibility that the UK could eventually become powerful on its own and cause problems for the EU.
Three flights, one expulsion order, two visa applications and payments later my friend’s son is in Manchester but now they’ve announced all classes will be virtual. I’ll spare you their opinions.
Why did he apply? I'm not sure I would have.
For a lot of subjects, Manchester is very good. World class. Not everyone wants to go to their nearest University. Widening horizons should go hand in hand with study... although we're doing our best to stop people doing so, aren't we.
Why did he apply? I’m not sure I would have
For the reasons Kelvin outlines, but mainly because he signed up as part of a sandwich course before the terms of the Brexit deal were known. It was all signed and paid for. I can't see the cooperation continuing on the same scale beyond the current year group, other alliances will be formed given the lousy experiences of students on UK placements over the last year. Years of cooperation and building relationships beneficial to both sides down the pan.
For a lot of subjects, Manchester is very good. World class. Not everyone wants to go to their nearest University. Widening horizons should go hand in hand with study… although we’re doing our best to stop people doing so, aren’t we.
I meant why not go to some other EU university. Must've been a lot easier. But Ed answered.
You can be forced to commit to joining it, like Sweden did in 1994.
Did we? We still use the öSwedish Krona here and, as I understand it, have no plans to change that. I thought we'd had a referendum and decided not to change to the Euro a while back too.
Do we even meet the democracy requirements to join the EU? Less than half our parliamentarians are elected.
Did we
Yup, but there's a catch, Sweden would have to do at least two years in the ERM first and that isn't obligatory, so euro memebership can't be obligatory unless Sweeden volunteers to join the ERM.
the pound is starting to show the markets are not happy with the situation and the BofE downbeat forecast. A run on the pound should make Johnsons day.
willard
Full MemberDid we? We still use the öSwedish Krona here and, as I understand it, have no plans to change that. I thought we’d had a referendum and decided not to change to the Euro a while back too.
Yup. Denmark negotiated an opt-out but Sweden committed to join the euro. And then just swerved the issue by not meeting the convergence criteria so they were never allowed to join, therefore their commitment became irrelevant. They could have easily met the convergence criteria if they'd ever wanted to but it suits them not to. "Yes we committed to do it but you won't let us"
And as you say they've since had a referendum and voted against joining it. Which doesn't undo their treaty commitment to joining even though it contradicts it, but that doesn't matter because it was already irrelevant.
In the case of Sweden, they just declined to join ERM2. You have to be in ERM2 for 2 years before you can adopt the euro. They could have achieved the same by not meeting any other convergence criteria but ERM2 was simple and also a nice clear political statement.
This came up a lot in the Scottish indy ref, it was a recurring blatant lie that "scotland would have to join the euro". Irony of course was that if Scotland had wanted to, we probably wouldn't have been allowed, and all of the No campaigners would have been shouting that from the rooftops instead.
For those thinking that the UK would be welcome back, consider how EU public opinion would view that and the impact on any politicians agreeing to it.
I can't see many EU states going for it unless it involved a delicious dollop of extra humiliation, perhaps The Queen having to make a Games of Thrones style walk of shame through the centre of Strasbourg.
I had a brexit bonus today. I work for a car company in Belgium and was offered two different 12month overseas assignments; UK and USA. The UK would be nice as I could see friends and family more often, plus working on good projects. USA would just be a nice challenge. For both, I would have expanded my experiences and also got an effective pay rise.
But, due to no longer being an EU citizen, I can't leave Belgium for longer than 6 months without the risk of losing my right to live and work in Belgium (withdrawal agreement) or compromising a future citizenship application. Meaning I can't take up one of these opportunities. But, my Italian colleague can. He can go to USA/UK and come back to Belgium, or Italy, or wherever else he likes.
Sorry to hear that.
Couldn't you do the assignment then come back to Belgium for a couple of weeks' holiday? In some things like this you only need to spend a few days back in that country to reset the clock.
In other news, I see we are going to allow gene edited crops (as opposed to GM) to be grown in the UK on a much easier basis than they are in the EU. This is possibly a good thing?
I see the latest to join Tim Whatsisname from Wetherspoons in the 'oh just **** off, this is what you campaigned for' club is the Brexiteer boss of Next who've just issued a statement asking the government to relax immigration rules so they can get enough staff in to fulfil their Christmas orders.
Simon Wolfson. A very clever, yet very insecure little man.
Many years ago I worked at Next - apparently the thing that caused him to almost explode with rage was Katie Price (or Jordan or whatever) telling him to "**** off, Harry Potter" at some do or other.
Wonderful!
Another Brexit win.👍
We might just manage to really help the EU recover from Covid economic losses as we start to import practically every ******* thing we need. 👏
Except people of course.
I think the problem with rejoining, and the damage we've done generally, is this:
We have for many years enjoyed status beyond our station. Two world wars and one world cup, British Empire, they need us, etc. The fact of the matter is, we're a has-been little island languishing up a rainy cul-de-sac. The bulk of what "made Britain great" is all quietly *ing off to pastures new, whilst the ones like Garage who promised us they'd * off still haven't.
We used to be respected, admired, and were for a long time. Look at London 2012, it was a triumph.
Now the EU and indeed most of the world just thinks we're roasters. We've destroyed the goodwill that we've built up over decades. If we were to rejoin it would take a slice of humble pie that would make Mary Berry blush, and we just aren't capable of humility. We're better than them.
^^Valid points there unfortunately.
On another note, the BBC are being a little daring given their current predicament.
Interesting timing too with the conference soon to begin!
"Who funds the Tories and why."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58721596
Couldn’t you do the assignment then come back to Belgium for a couple of weeks’ holiday? In some things like this you only need to spend a few days back in that country to reset the clock.
It’s a risk thou if you do that, if there was anything that prevented you from coming back,like closure of the borders or no planes you’d be at the mercy of the Belgium bureaucrats.
Unlikely but not impossible.
I have exactly the same issue, live in an eu country but not an eu citizen. Brexit removed the freedom of movement from people who voted with their feet.
Hmm nearly a year in,
where’s the Freeport’s and Singapore on Thames then.
Did I miss something, only benefits I’ve heard of are blue passports ,no tampon tax,allowing use of imperial measures.
(I’m not jumping on the relaxing of gm field trials.)
I’d hate to downplay the benefits as I’ve missed anything but that’s nearly a year, I thought I’d have seen something tangible.
I’d hate to downplay the benefits as I’ve missed anything but that’s nearly a year, I thought I’d have seen something tangible.
We won didn't we. What more do you need?
Just about to listen to this (I don’t get up early enough to hear the BBC shining a light on what’s happening in the UK and why on air, daytime broadcasting seems, er, reluctant to pull back the veil):
02/10/21 - Farming Today This Week: The Food Supply Chain Crisis
Moar Brexit winning AWEZOMNESS. For India.
Government hands Brexit helpline contract – to company in India
Look at London 2012
An event that I thought was an excellent marker on our road of progress.
Turns out it was the high water mark of the temporary illusion.
Where we have gone as a country since London 2012 is tragic.
Brexit has laid bare the true position, character and abilty of this small island.
What it has achieved is the opposite of what people voted for.
Problem is no one likes admitting they made a mistake.
We will not recover from this as the position we had before brexit was smoke and mirrors- there is simply no place to recover too.
We have done this to ourselves and Europe has no interest in our future.
I think the problem with rejoining, and the damage we’ve done generally, is this:
We have for many years enjoyed status beyond our station.
I think it gets even worse than this. Previously, British civil servants had a reputation for being effective legislators and negotiators. This in turn meant that we had a disproportionate amount of leverage in the drafting and implementation of EU rules and regulations. The recent debacle with the appallingly low standards of professional competence shown by Davis, Raab, Frost et al mean that reputation is in tatters, mainly because our government and its supporters had “had enough of experts”.
If (when) we rejoin we will have moved ourselves from beings facto “rule makers” to “rule-takers” to a far greater extent than was the case before.
That is going to happen anyway. Take UKCA. Even once it gets going, it will mostly have to keep in line with whatever CEN decide in future, even if we wait for their standards to be taken up by the ISO. We will no longer be setting world standards, we will be accepting them.
Looks like there's anther farming supply chain that is heavily relant on European labour and that is now, amazingly, leading to real-world financial and business hardship:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-58749841
oldman - how very true.
Look at London 2012
An event that I thought was an excellent marker on our descent into division, sub mediocrity and thence Brexit
Couldn’t you do the assignment then come back to Belgium for a couple of weeks’ holiday? In some things like this you only need to spend a few days back in that country to reset the clock.
I could do that. But to get permanent residency or indeed a citizenship application, I need 5 years continuous residency. Also, 5 years of continual tax payments as proof. Without that, I'm looking at a different route as a non-EU national which is typically 10 years. The withdrawal agreement forces Belgium to consider me as equal to an EU national, but if I left, I wouldn't have that benefit. I can't put my family through the 10 year wait.
I'm just frustrated that I have to wait 5 years to get back the freedom to move that I had for most of my life. Also, it's ironic that I can't go work in the UK (need to return to Belgium afterwards...) but my EU-passport-holding colleagues can.
Sorry to hear that a van that hit garage. A HGV would've been much more poetic.
I would anyone proclaiming that Brexit has been a success evidence that they may need locked away for their own safety and kept from any sharp objects
Looks like there’s anther farming supply chain that is heavily relant on European labour and that is now, amazingly, leading to real-world financial and business hardship
I think we can take it as read that the list of sectors struggling is just going to grow and grow as reality re-establishes itself over the fantastical nonsense that exists only in the minds of Brexiteers
reality re-establishes itself
How much reality before enough Leave voters turn on Brexit?
That's the only question. Depends on the workings of the mind of your average Leave voter. I won't pretend to be able to figure that out because, well, you know.....
"There were approximately 1.55 million unemployed people in the United Kingdom in the three months to July 2021, with the figure in December 2020 being the highest number since September 2015, when there were just over 1.76 million unemployed.
Sep 24, 2021
• Unemployment figures UK 2021 | Statista"
Bit of training and Bobs your uncle . . . .
How many of them are able to do the work? For example, how many are receiving benefits because they are disabled or unable to work through illness?
“Bob is 50, with lung cancer. He is also his wife’s carer, she has Alzheimer’s. Bob has been approached to train as an HGV trainer. He would be expected to complete his training and qualify for class 1 this time next year. In the meantime, we are hoping he will move to Norfolk until Christmas to work in a Turkey farm. Of course, he will need to return regularly to his local hospital for treatment and assessment, and find someone else to care for his wife in the home he shares with her in Teesside.”
Kelvin makes a good point but fails to include the large number currently unemployed who are unemployable due to their innate inablilty to actually hold a job down. Either way just because there are 1.5 million unemployed doesn't mean we have 1.5 million people who can fill the skills gaps with a bit of training.
Most of the people currently employed are in and out of work (they are genuinely “between jobs”), so they are employable… but where? And doing what? The number is currently higher than normal as companies fired (or more often didn’t renew part time contracts) during the pandemic, in the expectation they can recruit again as things pick up. For some workers this is new, for others this form of insecure working arrangement is now entirely normal (say “flexible workforce with a fixed grin”)… that doesn’t mean they are about to train to work in food production or logistics the other end of the country, rather than get their next job in a sector they are used to working in, in the region they are settled in. Especially not for a seasonal job that makes them unavailable to take on the job they really want when a position arises.
I can’t be angry with people parroting simple solutions when the world is not simple. The number one clown in number ten will be parroting this “train our own” line, while doing absolutely **** all to help people educate and train themselves. The buck stops with him. All anger should be reserved for him. What could he do? Start with the nurses… we are desperately short of them, but then expect Brits to go into mountains of debt while they train. The answer isn’t stopping nurses coming here, it is for a government to value educating and training… and to fund it and support people. Take any other sector with a huge number of full time vacancies, and it’s a similar problem, with similar government action required. But even if you fixed all that, which would take years (yeah, we’ve had five years since the referendum, but hey, haven’t probably started yet, have we)… that still doesn’t solve seasonal work, which the world-over relies on people moving around. Or the simple issue of not having enough workers. Where a worker is someone genuinely suitable for the job.
I backed a fairly small Kickstarter project a little while ago. I've just had this update.
>>
If you enjoy stories about bureaucratic absurdity, feel free to read on. Otherwise, you can just skip this part.
In order to import goods into the UK post-Brexit, foreign companies need something called an Economic Operators Registration and Identification (EORI) number issued by the UK government. They also need to register for VAT in the UK and get a separate number for that.
We knew this going into the project. Which is why, many months ago, we hired a UK accounting firm to help get us an EORI number and VAT registration number for the UK. That way, by the time we were ready to ship, everything would be set.
We knew that there were months long delays in getting these numbers, which is why we applied early.
To say that the application process has been a nightmare is an understatement. The UK's application was far more onerous than any other we've had to fill out. We were asked to submit documents no other government ever asked to see "prove" that our products existed and that we were serious about importing. The whole process seemed designed to discourage foreign companies from even bothering to ship goods into the UK.
It was particularly infuriating because we'd already collected VAT from our UK customers. It was as if the UK didn't want the money that we'd already collected for it.
By comparison, getting an EU EORI number and getting VAT registered in the EU was a breeze! Thanks, EU!
For being a monstrous bureaucracy, you're surprisingly business friendly!
So we submitted our UK application. And we waited, and we waited, and we waited. For months, neither us nor our accountants received any updates on our application.
Finally, two weeks ago, we received a snail mail letter from the UK government, mailed from Malta(!), that informed us our application had been denied because we had "applied more than three months in advance" of our estimated import date.
You read that right. We were rejected because we applied too early. And we were informed of our rejection via snail mail from another continent--not an email.
We think this is the guy in charge of handling EORI numbers for the UK
Our accountants have informed us that there's no legal requirement that a company have to register for an EORI number within three months of an expected import date. We're talked to other publishers and no one's ever heard of this happening. It's just a strange, bureaucratic mystery--we've been rejected based on a rule or regulation whose existence no one can point us to.
So due to the incompetence of the UK government, we've had to reapply. Our accountants are working to get our new application approved as soon as possible. But until we get a UK EORI number, our UK shipments are probably going to have to sit at the factory.
Being foolishly optimistic Americans, we are hopeful that we'll get the necessary numbers and approval in the next few weeks. But until then, UK shipments may be delayed. By how long, we don't know.
Let’s hope they can ship the initial batch into the UK before they need to test and mark the product up for UKCA compliance. I can see that one being the real block to smaller operations selling new kit into the UK if/when it becomes mandatory.
I have a small online business - most products are about a tenner and with the Deminimis (<£22)rule on low value goods, it was possible to ship all around the world without filling out reams of paperwork. About 10% of our sales were to the EU, but the ‘experts’ in our Government decided we wanted to embrace being a 3rd country having helped write the rules so now you need an EORI number to ship small packages to the EU…for a small business like mine the costs exceed the sales value so we no longer ship to the EU.
(say “flexible workforce with a fixed grin”)
TBH my current favourite is “transition away from a low-income high-immigration economy”.
I’m not sure what the transition is to 🙂
Low income, low immigration, obvs.
As has been said before, when Johnson and chums start talking about mobility and flexibility in a workforce, they mean zero-hours, minimum wage, gig economy.
Singapore on Thames
Not going to happen as just about all rental housing in Singapore is state owned.
Hey, let’s not get onto rising private rent prices negating any short term rise in wages, that’s not the shift in focus Johnson and the Britannia Unchained cabinet want to happen right now.
Rejoin single market petition
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/596930?fbclid=IwAR3iPubJOSgoBnm7QRoOfUVXUdIUIq37tEj8wYBKGTB0IsysHDlpKDdecH0
The petition is now over halfway to the point where the government will respond to it.
Just signed it.
**** Brexit.
The petition is now over halfway to the point where the government will respond to it.
Except, "we're not going to respond to it" is seemingly an acceptable response.
I've signed it. There is symbolic value even though I know full well that they won't do anything.
I’m just frustrated that I have to wait 5 years to get back the freedom to move that I had for most of my life. Also, it’s ironic that I can’t go work in the UK (need to return to Belgium afterwards…) but my EU-passport-holding colleagues can.
In June 2016 I forecast that a consequence of leaving was that jobs like I'd had in the past would now be done by EU27 passport holders, even if based in the UK. These jobs were working across the world (mainly the developed countries, therefore Europe is a major constituent) for global businesses based out of London. Why employ a Brit and face uncertainty and cost when you could employ an EU27 citizen with UK rights.
Same reason Brits were employed by US businesses in Europe, we spoke their lingo and didn't have costs attached that US passport holders did.
It'll be interesting if the UK ever re-joins, to add up the cost of this folly - both economically & socially.
Tory Stephen Kerr on radio Scotland this morning claimed the fuel crisis isn't caused by Brexit, it's caused by a lack of tanker drivers.
@intheborders similarly I'm at a significant disadvantage because now instead of just jumping on a plane and being there tomorrow I need to fart about with work permits that could take a week.
Rejoin single market petition
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/596930?fbclid=IwAR3iPubJOSgoBnm7QRoOfUVXUdIUIq37tEj8wYBKGTB0IsysHDlpKDdecH0/a >
I'd rather rejoin the EU properly, but this would do in the mean time.
edit - just over 5000 signatures since March, I doubt it'll make a lot of headway.
I'm sort of impressed how over the weekend several prominent Tories were floating the explanation that Brexit is simultaneously nothing to do with the reason that there are shortages of everything (A Bad Thing), and Brexit is the reason there are short term shortages because it is realigning a broken consumer market (a Good Thing)
heads you lose...etc etc.
Tory Stephen Kerr on radio Scotland this morning claimed the fuel crisis isn’t caused by Brexit, it’s caused by a lack of tanker drivers.
He's absolutely correct.
Oh, wait...