Please do not feed the troll.
I think that needs repeating.
Don’t know if we could have had them when in the EU
We had Freeports when in the EU. We (Cameron?) got rid of them. Other EU countries still have Freeports.
Does the EU prevent the creation of freeports?
No. The UK could create freeports as a member of the EU. Indeed, the UK has previously been home to several freeports, including Liverpool, Southampton, the Port of Tilbury and Glasgow Prestwick Airport. There was a total of seven freeports between 1984 and 2012, when the UK legislation that established their use was not renewed.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/trade-freeports-free-zones
https://twitter.com/joe_mayes/status/1338874529070911490?s=21
Lots of good quotes in that article. Can I post them without upsetting the careful balance of wishful thinking versus what is actually happening? Not sure I have the tact or skill… so please read the article yourselves… and don’t blame the messenger…
Don't forget the Calais Fishermen as well 🙁
Am I wrong? is there any precedent for regression in this country?
:Loss of rent controls and secure tenancies under Thatcher. 2 year instead on one year qualifying period for employment tribunals and a hefty fee to go to one instead of free.
That two very regressive measures that spring instantly to mind
Scope for regression in holidays, sick pay and maternity pay. The EU made us give everyone half decent holidays - before that you in many jobs had to do a year without paid leave until you got any. Redundancy pay etc etc etc
this is the way
More likely that the well off will keep their holidays, and new, young, low paid workers will be employed in ever more inventive ways, with little to no paid leave, to help make our economy “more competitive”… that’s pretty much how it works over the Atlantic, where the Brexitiers we are following down this rabbit hole get much of their inspiration from.
Just look at labour in the US to see where we're going. Average paid holiday in the US is 10 days and that's after working for a year.
Factor in a bit of mass unemployment and you got conditions for all sort of employment shenanigans.
Regression is what this is all about. It’s essential if your primary goal is to undercut the costs of you close neighbours
This country is about to find out in no uncertain terms how many things that we presently take for granted were only there due to EU legislation.
Certainly when the Tory’s are in power, anyway. And these lot aren’t even technically Tory’s any more, as Chris Pattern and Michael Heseltine both observed at the weekend. They’re far far worse than that.
@thecaptain Yep I remember, along with sanitary products and sneering at Jonny Foreigner and their silly Blue Flags ....
Which court did the UK Govt. listen to it when told to do what they had signed up to and sort it ....... UK or European ???
This country is about to find out in no uncertain terms how many things that we presently take for granted were only there due to EU legislation
I genuinely apologise if I'm asking a basic question here that has been asked a million times over. Why would our own legislation have to be worse than what we currently have with the EU?
Added - what is the real cost of leaving? Rocketing unemployment because we are no longer competitive in markets? Trading taxes and tariffs means we all need to eat our own fish and spuds and restart British Leyland?
I work for a German company subsidiary here in the UK making components for automation. I do fear my job is at risk. However, the majority of our competitors are also German.
Factor in a bit of mass unemployment and you got conditions for all sort of employment shenanigans.
Make 'em desperate then they'll accept any conditions just to have a wage coming in.
And these lot aren’t even technically Tory’s any more
Something not enough people appreciate.
Your 'proper' or 'old school' tories (I.e. the existing back benchers in safe seats) are now getting seriously worried as it is going to be left to them to rebuild their party once this now activated sleeper cell has wreaked its havoc. But **** them too - they were just riding the Bullshit Bus in their own short term interests, so I won't shed any tears for them. Farage's manipulation of the Tories has been masterful. Not nasty enough, I'll take your racists away from you....promise to get nastier then I'll loan them back to you. And repeat. A masterpiece in an extremist tail wagging a mainstream dog.
Why would our own legislation have to be worse than what we currently have with the EU?
It doesn’t “have to” be worse. But, why else to do you think Brexit is happening? Just to have the “control” to move away from (euphemism) EU standards? Remember, we could raise standards as members of the EU… so the control being sought is the control to have lower standards… and that’s what the EU want to be able to respond to (not stop us, just be able to respond)… that is the big sticking point in the deal currently being negotiated. We want to be able to have lower standards, and we want the EU to not be able to respond with tariffs and/or quotas.
But lower standards of what? Food production? Transport and infrastructure? Employment policies?
Sorry, I'm just confirming my thickness here.
I'm fully on board now with brexit being a very bad idea, I'm still not onboard with it being a conspiracy to make lives worse for everyone or lower standards, if that was the case why look at the american model and not the chinese one?
I'd use the term overboard 🙂
Just look at labour in the US to see where we’re going. Average paid holiday in the US is 10 days and that’s after working for a year.
the yanks have a bizarre interpretation of work ethic.
remember that they started from no paid holiday way back in history, and worked up to that.
we started from no paid holiday and worked up to 4-5 weeks being the norm. it would take generations to accept a regression in that. You can tell the population/employees that a recession, lack of customers and so on results in lower pay or lower hours; but take away someone's free time and try to justify it to the masses...
Sorry, I’m just confirming my thickness here.
You are not thick. You can see the world as it is… but with a major change like this… we have to ask… what the change is…
…and the arguments stopping a trade deal with the EU right now tell you so much… we want the “freedom” to have lower standards than them, yet want to keep tariff and quota free access if we do. That is the red line causing the problem… we have happily waved goodbye to Erasmus+, passporting rights for the City… very big and useful things we could have squeezed into a deal… but we will not commit to the idea that if we have lower standards than the EU, that they can reciprocate. Why? Because the point of Brexit (for those in charge of it) is to not have to match EU standards… to have lower standards to be “competitive”.
It doesn’t “have to” be worse. But, why else to do you think Brexit is happening?
I mean, Raab I think it was - said a few months back that a potential benefit was to have higher environmental standards than the EU (thus making our even more expensive in the market - like a kind of organic farm shop). And then anyone with any sense exclaimed "you lying so and so".
'Unlocking Potential' = 'Screwing People over'.
But the rabbits in the headlights haven't even registered the presence of the speeding car yet...
Well, perhaps I look at life differently. I like to see what I can do for someone else.
That’s great. Do you think Johnson* thinks the same way?
*insert the name of anyone who campaigned for Brexit and is now involved in negotiations for a replacement deal.
we started from no paid holiday and worked up to 4-5 weeks being the norm. it would take generations to accept a regression in that.
Take about a week! NO recourse to tribunals, no legally mandated minimum holidays, high unemplyment. Your choice become a job with no holidays or no job. anyone offering decent terms and conditions is then undercut. Holiday entitlement gone for most ( OK maybe a few months)
Of course not. I don't really know what way politicians think. I must note, I was born and grew up in Belfast. My view of 'politicians' and politics is quite different.
I don't know how, I don't know when, I just hope we can sort something and try our hardest to compete.
but take away someone’s free time and try to justify it to the masses…
You don’t “take it away” from anyone… you just let employers drop what they are offering in new contracts. As I said… the well off and stable will keep their holidays (many already get more than the minimum). The young and low paid will increasingly be employed with fewer rights, and that includes minimum paid leave being lower, or done away with. It’s already happening, and will accelerate as part of the “change” coming.
Folks please outline once and for all for myself and others exactly who is behind this lowering of standards? Names please?
You say the current gov are the frontmen for them, who are they?
I genuinely want to know.
Names please?
Some reading for you… the writers are not in hiding… they are now government ministers…
FT review from 2012 is well worth a skim:
“Britannia Unchained prescribes shock therapy for the country: welfare cuts and Beecroft-style labour market deregulation.”
I will give you a long term benefit – Instead of sending money to the EU to have it repatriated to us on a basis of need, we can spend it directly in the UK on the basis of whatever takes the fancy of the gov’ of the day, including but I am sure not limited to:
– Areas with their party MP
– Businesses owned by their mates
– Areas called LondonI mean that has to be a benefit, right?
Unfortunately the money we paid for membership generated far more within our economy, which is why we're seeing the Govt forecast an up to 7% reduction in GDP due to leaving.
7% of £2.9T is over £200bn - and the tax take from this is serious money compared to the £10-15bn net spend on membership.
Did anyone else see the Twitter link further down that haulage story about Clarrissa Ward?
She was doorstepping the FSB Agent that killed someone or other recently. In some gloomy run down block of flats in Russia.
Serious cahones. Sooner her than me...
My brother is a farmer (at the time of the referendum I asked him how he was going to vote and his reply was: "My heart says leave but my head says remain", he voted remain), a week or so ago I asked him what he thought would happen if as part of a UK-US deal we accepted GM foods/crops. His answer was basically forget any food exports other than fish to the EU.
The standards/level playing field conundrum neatly exposes one of the many brexit lies. As above it has been claimed that being outside the EU we can have higher standards* so therefore a level playing field would mean the EU stepping up to those higher standards rather than the other way round.
* I'm unaware of any EU regulation that actually prevents a member state from implementing higher standards.
the writers are not in hiding
As mentioned above but lost in the ether...this one has a lot of answers, Rees Mogg's Father...
we started from no paid holiday and worked up to 4-5 weeks being the norm. it would take generations to accept a regression in that.
Don't forget as far back as 2012 they changed the law so that if you are employed the company could sack you with a weeks notice from 1 yr to 2 yrs, once free of EU regs I can see these rights being further eroded.
https://www.riaabarkergillette.com/uk/dismissing-employees-2-years-service/
Apparently there are more applicants for Freeport status than the number likely to be approved, some somebody in the industry must think they’re a good idea.
Is that the Crime Industry? They love Freeports...
You don’t “take it away” from anyone… you just let employers drop what they are offering in new contracts. As I said… the well off and stable will keep their holidays (many already get more than the minimum).
I'm not even sure of that. With the double whammy of Covid and Brexit, firms will be looking to make savings / redundancies and can easily ask employees to take a holiday or pay cut in place of redundancies. It might be illegal to take it away unilaterally but you can 'voluntarily' accept it. I had to do it post 2008 banking; BA asked their staff to do it to reduce the lay offs....
Of course employment rights and unions will be there to fight our corner. As long as those rights aren't torn up at the same time.........
Can someone provide me with a list of countries that have higher standards than the EU. I've got a blank piece of paper at the moment.
But lower standards of what? Food production? Transport and infrastructure? Employment policies?
Sorry, I’m just confirming my thickness here.
No you're not, you're confirming your lack of curiosity.
Just a quick google should help, try reading this guy:
https://twitter.com/chrisgreybrexit?s=20
Bottom line is that the Govt is forecasting that Brexit will generate up to a 7% hit on GDP and also on the tax-take, consequentially it will need to reduce public spending. A major item of spending is public sector salaries & benefits.
What easier way is there than to reduce the cost of employment overall and then the Govt will automatically save too.
Just one example.
Some reading for you… the writers are not in hiding… they are now government ministers…
These people come across on this thread as the front men and are derided as idiots, its implied on this thread that there are people behind the government seeking to lower standards, who are they?
Dougiedogg.
Barclay brothers, Murdoch, Desmond, Arron Banks, Rees Mogg, the Inoes guy, Other financial manipulators
derided as idiots
They do not see the value in workers rights, but they are fully able to rid us of them in future… you do not need to be exceptionally bright to have belief in a project, and you get to carry it out if enough people support you… despite you telling them that you want to remove their rights. It’s bonkers, but examples of this happening don’t need seeking out. I mean, you can link to a book where government ministers state, on the record, in plain sight, that they want to lower workers rights, and still people will tell you that “they don’t really want to do that”.
I mean, you can link to a book where government ministers state, on the record, in plain sight, that they want to lower workers rights, and still people will tell you that “they don’t really want to do that”.
Or is it because most/many people fail to make the connection with 'workers rights' and 'that means I could be sacked tomorrow with no notice'. Many probably already think that's the case, in which case they don't see it as a loss. A significant number will even agree, because they only think it's the ****less and incompetent who will get fired, not themselves. And then there's the association between workers rights and crackpot 6th form socialist ideology (you see that a lot here), which will encourage many to take a view against their own interests.
Yup… many think that it is other people that need workers rights… because they haven’t yet benefitted from them themselves (they are wrong, everyone has)… but we’re not even talking that here… many people (across the country) really think that the government does not want to use Brexit to have lower standards than our regional competitor (ex-partner) countries… despite it being the sticking point in the current negotiations with the EU… and despite ministers having told us 8 years ago that this deregulation project is what they are in politics for… I find that lack of being able to accept the motivations of the politicians currently running this country depressing*. They think Raab, Patel, Kwarteng, Truss and co are just like us… having the best of intentions towards the workers of the UK… they, are, not… and they don’t even pretend to be.
*EDIT: forget depressing… glass half full time… this is also heart warming… that many of us trust people to do right by their follow Brits, even after they have described us as work shy and telling us that they want to lower standards and reshape our economy off the back off extreme deregulation.
Thanks TJ at least I can research those people now and get an idea of why they might be interested in lowering standards.
Told you
https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1338878071483543568?s=19
If he can get it past the tory headbangers it will be signed
Thanks TJ at least I can research those people now and get an idea of why they might be interested in lowering standards.
That's good, and it is the right thing to do, but your question is basically 'why might a business owner be interested in lowering wages?' If you genuinely don't understand that, then....
Business A has just found out that the new minimum paid holiday per year is five days. Business A currently offers 20 days a year. Business A is run by someone who just wants to maximise profit and doesn't give a shit about the employees. Business A has just gained about 6% extra capacity for nothing.
Business B is in direct competition with Business A and is not run by a total arsehole. Unfortunately Business A has just lowered its prices by 3% and is undercutting Business B. Business B's owner rang his customers to see whether they could stand the extra cost of buying from them knowing that they are a more ethical company. But most of his customers said "we don't run our business for the good of your employees". Business B's owner has just gathered all his staff together and is beginning to speak: "I'm really sorry guys, but...."
These Brexit fundamentalists are free market loons.
And if you don't think this is already happening out in the real world, it is.
