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Its a conspiracy by the road sign industry
They get paid by the letter
Makes you think, but may require your own research.....
I'm all for it, I grew up in North Wales and English was only taught as a subject. Maths, science, geography, history, dinosaurs, food-tech, woodworking, PE and whatever else were all taught in Welsh using the Welsh words for things and it was the language spoken in most public places, shops, libraries, etc. It was only really 'ex-pat' English that spoke English as a default.
And the Welsh names are so much nicer and more descriptive than English ones. You can imagine someone hundreds of years ago saying to their mate "You know, the houses up by Saint Afan's chapel near the woods" and the name stuck.
Obviously if you don't speak Welsh it's just incomprehensible gibberish with too many vowels and hyphens only spoken to make you feel uncomfortable in the pub 🤷♂️
I admit all this confuses me.
Is anyone outside the North using Eryr instead of Snowdonia in everyday chat?
Does it matter? No one apart from the English call Germany, Germany. Does anyone outside Deutchland call Deutchland, Deutchland? Should the Deutchland government re-brand itself German because only* people inside Germany use the term Deutchland?
*do your own research, maybe other countries do use that name.
These days you can go to jail for calling it Ayers Rock
Is Brecon also being renamed (reverted to) Brecknock?
It's Aberhonddu according to the road signs.
I'm with Scotroutes on this.
It makes sense to me to translate regular text like "ARAF" painted on roads, but I always found it weird that we Anglicise names. Some are lumpy to English tongues but we just need to know how to make a reasonable fist of pronouncing them. Pen-Y-Bont isn't difficult, why do we need "Bridgend"? Back in French lessons at high school I was taught that my name in French was "Alain" - no, that's simply not my name, any more than it's Allan or Allen.
True that!
The city of Munich in Germany.... is not called Munich... Its Munchen.
I don't understand why we don't use the local correct original names.
Hello, my name is Charlie.
Nice to meet you Charlie.. from now on everyone outside of your neighbourhood shall call you "Banger Barbara".
Was "Snowdon" a tourist marketing thing. If you can't pronounce it who will visit it? So I just googled that and...
"The English name for Snowdon is derived from the Old English 'snow dun' meaning 'snow hill'. There are references to this as far back as the 11th century."
You can imagine someone hundreds of years ago saying to their mate “You know, the houses up by Saint Afan’s chapel near the woods” and the name stuck.
At some point in the 18th C nearly everyone in the UK outside the major tows and cities went from that to suddenly living at 11 St Afan's Chapel Lane. The really weird thing about the change was it went almost unremarked upon.
I've never quite got the anglicisation of some names but not others - as above Firenze, or Koln, or Praha, or Den Hague are hardly difficult to pronounce. I understand if the alphabet is totally different (such as names of Chinese or Russian cities) then some sort of phonetic version is needed and I'm not sure if welsh or gaelic for example comes into that category or not with the same letters but different sounds.
Why's the Cathedral in Paris Notre Dame instead of Our Lady?
Football twitter will be apoplectic when Abertawe and Caerdydd are playing.
It’s Aberhonddu according to the road signs.
Thanks. Still says Brecon as well though, yes?
I've always been a strong advocate of dual language signs. And in theory I'd be up for more Welsh names only... but in practice... I admit that moves in that direction confuse me, and no doubt many others.
Koln, or Praha, or Den Hague are hardly difficult to pronounce. I understand if the alphabet is totally different
Well, you've spelt Koln wrong, and changed the pronunciation in doing so.
Its Munchen.
No it isn't.
I spent the first few years of my life near München, still call it that, but don't bridle at Munich.
If you moved there, you'd change how you refer to it tout de suite, but casual international use is fine with everyone really, isn't it?
is not called Munich… Its Munchen.
Pfft...where's the umlaut, Babs?
that's more to do with typing ineptitude than lack of knowledge.
. Pen-Y-Bont isn’t difficult, why do we need “Bridgend”?
Cos I'd have had nowhere to go school otherwise 😂
Comins Coch
What does that translate to in English 🤭
I personally credit the local mountain rescue teams with a bit more nouse.
yeah - they will probably ask if you are on Snowdon?
I’ve never quite got the anglicisation of some names but not others – as above Firenze, or Koln, or Praha, or Den Hague are hardly difficult to pronounce.
Yeah it goes back a long way, to when people (presumably sailors largely) were uneducated and they couldn't be expected to even read or write the places they were going to or buying stuff from never mind pronounce them correctly. It's also quite common as significant places in most countries have localised names in other countries e.g. Londres and Édimbourg. However Anglo-washing everywhere in Wales just to make life easier for English, in the current climate seems a bit off. Would you go to France and expect a map with crappy anglophone approximations under every town and village? Would you actually want that?
What puzzles me a bit is that whilst Paris is an obvious English pronunciation based on the written name, Munich doesn't really sound like Muenchen. There must be a story behind that.
EDIT and there is..
Big important places tend to get named separately by the cultures that interact with them by trade etc. Leaving aside the post-colonial issue, I don't have a problem with this.
Pen-Y-Bont isn’t difficult, why do we need “Bridgend”?
A lot of the English names for Welsh places are adopted from the Viking names e.g. Swansea, Fishguard. Either the English historically found them easier to say or they adopted them from their interactions with Danes.
Big important places tend to get named separately by the cultures that interact with them
Interesting, apparently Shrewsbury was known as Amwythig in Wales long after the Anglicisation of the town and it's different to the supposed ancient British name of Pengwern, according to Wikipedia, which suggests that it acquired the later name locally within Wales whilst it was being called Shrewsbury by its inhabitants.
It’s also quite common as significant places in most countries have localised names in other countries e.g. Londres and Édimbourg.
Is that not equally daft? The city name is London, not Londres. We might mispronounce Paris as paris rather than par-ee (and don't get me started on the US interpretation of Notre Dame) but it's still Paris.
Many of us mispronounce Henffordd as Hereford,
Would you go to France and expect a map with crappy anglophone approximations under every town and village?
No. But having Breton and French, to give one of many examples, on roadsigns and maps is helpful.
Many of us mispronounce Henffordd as Hereford
Plenty of places "this side" of the border could do with having dual language signage.
Is that not equally daft?
I guess that's for you to decide. I suspect it has historically more justifiable roots than modern day mangling of e.g. Betws y Coed.
Having a pronunciation guide on signs to help foreigners is a great idea...like they do in Loughborough and Keswick
Many of us mispronounce Henffordd as Hereford
I have a vague and possibly unreliable memory of seeing Henffordd on a road sign..?
If it's important to know Where TF you are, eg for a rescue, there's a really simple method that sidesteps most language and pronunciation problems.
Use a grid reference. It's really not difficult. A 6 digt number is all that is required.
I have a vague and possibly unreliable memory of seeing Henffordd on a road sign..?
One near one of my old primary schools IIRC... but that's at the end of town where Henffordd actually was.
EDIT: Google shows me nothing entering Hereford itself... just signs to Hereford/Henffordd from within Wales. Those signs also being used in England would be fine with me... why should dual signage stop at the border?
Use a grid reference. It’s really not difficult. A 6 digt number is all that is required.
but that is beyond the ability of most people. I tried that approach in Wales last week and their computers said no. Three What Words was the only thing that worked.
Should just get away with all place names everywhere in the world and use Three What Words instead ! Problem solved
Should just get away with all place names everywhere in the world and use Three What Words instead ! Problem solved
What Three Words is also localised.
why should dual signage stop at the border?
Lol that would go down well!
Having a pronunciation guide on signs to help foreigners is a great idea…like they do in Loughborough and Keswick
loogah-baroogah
I have a vague and possibly unreliable memory of seeing Henffordd on a road sign..?
pretty sure there's quite a few on the Powys side of the border
Welsh "exonyms"
A lot appear to be translations rather than transliterations eg Caer*.
Having a pronunciation guide on signs to help foreigners is a great idea…like they do in Loughborough and Keswick
I was once walking through York Castle Museum and overheard an American couple talking about Knaresborough – pronouncing it 'Ker-Naress-Berr-Ooh'
Lol that would go down well!
That says something though. The Welsh helpfully keeping English on roadsigns should be reciprocated in border counties... why not? And if not... why should they?
Banger Barbara
Banger Barbara's Bum Butter- got a certain ring to it!
I have a bit of a thing about German pronunciation (German mum you see), e.g. Porsche, Braun. But I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to München/Munich.
Also I anglicise Paris when used on its own but not when used in Paris-Roubaix or Paris-Nice.
Calderdale used to be known as 'The Valley of the Welshmen', as it was occupied by people of Anglo Saxon heritage long after most people had interbred with the Norman invaders.
Just out of interest.....
Football Association of Wales use both "Cymru" and "Wales" in their english language comms interchangeably, and there have been a few stories about them officially becoming Cymru in international competitions rather than Wales.
Interestingly these initiatives aren't coming from Wales Govt , but from independent organisations within Wales.
Calderdale used to be known as ‘The Valley of the Welshmen’, as it was occupied by people of Anglo Saxon heritage long after most people had interbred with the Norman invaders.
Just out of interest…..
Elmet in Yorkshire was an old Welsh/proto brittonic fiefdom as well no? Strathclyde too (Ystrad Clud)
they’ve just decided to drop the English version of the name
Yep
Why not keep both rather than dropping one?
Valid question. I'm agnostic on it but Welsh Name / English Name isn't unreasonable - considering the vast majority of people in Wales are english speakers. But if we're going to use just the welsh (which is also cool) then people need to not get butthurt if some people choose to use the old name/something else.
@molgrips:
People from a linguistic heritage have a right to preserve it in the face of erasing by a dominant neighbour, don’t they?
This is also fair, but the renaming thing isn't a politically neutral act of language-protection, it's got a darker side too.
I wrote this on another thread regarding Snowdonia/Snowdon name change and it's relevant to repost IMO:
I live here [Snowdonia/Eryri] and, frankly, struggle to care.
Call it what you like. It’s a big bit of rock that’s fun to climb and a hilly area that’s nice to be in. Call it Fred and Billybobland tbh. If people get angry at you for it, then they’ve too much time on their hands.
I like the welsh names. But that’s all they are. Names. Changeable names. And the push to change names does have an ugly nationalist undertone, unfortunately. Look at Carnedd Uchaf, for example. There was a campaign to change the official name of the mountain to Carnedd Gwenllian – which happened in 2009.
Gwenllian was the daughter of the last Prince of Wales, imprisoned for live by Edward I in a priory in Linconshire (rather than killed, which would have been the usual form). Other than being imprisoned she did nothing of note – so the name change’s only purpose is a monument to show how shit “The English” are – and don’t you forget it!
There’s way too much of that going on in Wales at the moment. I agree with moves to keep a beautiful language alive and to enhance and preserve a culture. However, there’s a stench of horrible Welsh nationalism and I dislike the static “this is what it means to be Welsh and if you don’t conform to these arbitary ideals you’re not a real welshman” absolutism.
So I call it Snowdon and Snowdonia and I ain’t changing. Was born in Wales, live in Wales, am Welsh – and I don’t really care what anyone calls anything and there’s plenty of Welsh people who feel the same.
But each to their own – if you want to use Yr Wyddfa/Eryri then knock yourself out. But if you want to use Snowdon/Snowdonia you’re not really being culturally insensitive. You’re just not bowing to a group of angry nationalists.
But to be very clear – I’m not saying everyone who wants people to use Yr Wyddfa/Eryri is an angry nationalist. And I’m not even saying it’s a bad thing. But don’t be apologising if you call something the thing you’ve called it all your life out of misplaced guilt. 🙂
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @52.0458315,-3.1988286,3a,33.7y,265.35h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx9LLOerOmEdi_3tU9XzF8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The Sugar Loaf is actually Pen y Fal
Place names and how they are spelt and pronounce belong to the people who live there, no-one else. Just like peoples names. Ask Sara Cox what her name is for example. A welsh speaker would (and does) pronounce the village I live in completely differently than every local within the valley going back generations. They (the welsh speaker) are convinced theirs is the correct way to pronounce it. They are of course wrong.
Elmet in Yorkshire was an old Welsh/proto brittonic fiefdom as well no? Strathclyde too (Ystrad Clud)
Everywhere on the mainland was Brythonic at one point, only changing when invaders/settlers arrived.
I live here [Snowdonia/Eryri] and, frankly, struggle to care.
Congratulations, but other people apparently do.
I do wonder though, if Britain had lost the war would you be equally happy speaking German and not caring about English?
However, there’s a stench of horrible Welsh nationalism and I dislike the static “this is what it means to be Welsh and if you don’t conform to these arbitary ideals you’re not a real welshman” absolutism.
That's fair, but like most things there are probably many factors. There are probably some people being anti-English, others who just want to preserve their culture against overwhelming cultural imperialism*, and others who just think it's cool. I mostly see option 2 and 3 down here, but then it's pretty cosmopolitan by Welsh standards.
* this isn't deliberate (not these days, although it was for a long time), before you get angry, it just what happens and has always happened when one large culture starts to dominate another smaller one.
The Welsh helpfully keeping English on roadsigns should be reciprocated in border counties… why not? And if not… why should they?
Well it reflects Wales's status as a bilingual country as opposed to England.
Interestingly these initiatives aren’t coming from Wales Govt , but from independent organisations within Wales.
I’m indifferent to the change at the moment (haven’t had time to ruminate), but I don’t think the decision to change the name of the NP has been made by the locals of the BB.
I can’t see any tangible benefits to the name change but, to be fair, I’m not a very cultured person.
For the record: I’m not Welsh, but live on the edge of the BB NP.
I’m indifferent to the change at the moment (haven’t had time to ruminate), but I don’t think the decision to change the name of the NP has been made by the locals of the BB.
I can’t see any tangible benefits to the name change but, to be fair, I’m not a very cultured person.
For the record: I’m not Welsh, but live on the edge of the BB NP.
It's the National Park organisation thats decided to change it's name - how they determined that name should be changed I have no idea but I doubt there was a referendum of people who live in the park to decide that. I'm sure there is a possibility of a very long thread somewhere about NP governance and what they should and shouldnt be doing do irrespective of what they decide to call themselves