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Brecon Beacons: Park to use Welsh name Bannau Brycheiniog
But Why? It seems to me like Coke Cola changing its name to Shitty Sugar Syrup.
If it was called Edward Colston Hills I would get the change.
Ps I almost live in Wales, straddle the border
Things change
The world turns
Stuff like this ebbs & flows
The empire is over
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not
Why not? It is in Wales after all. Did you complain about Snowdon becomimg Yr Wyddfa?
Well, its a welsh mountain range and there doesn't seem to any evidence they were ever used as beacons. Did you even read the press release?
I think its entirely legitimate to use welsh language to name welsh places - its not as it they are forcing people to use the name, merely "hoping it will catch on"
It's in Wales, they can use Welsh names for things. AFAIK they've had the welsh name on their site since forever, they've just decided to drop the English version of the name.
Which seems fair enough.
More people are speaking Welsh in Wales, national identity I guess, and maybe trying to stop foreigners from England visiting because they can’t pronounce the names?
Probably makes sense in more ways than one to the Welsh.
Twodogs Snowdon didnt become Yr Wyddfa, Yr Wyddfa became Snowdon. These areas are in Wales a land where we have our own culture language and traditional names which say a lot about our cultural history for example near me we have cwm cneifion (cwm of the shearing, in spring its full of cotton grass) which the victorians changed to Namless Cwm. I know which i prefer.
Why not keep both rather than dropping one?
Its a conspiracy by the road sign industry
They get paid by the letter
Twodogs Snowdon didnt become Yr Wyddfa
Well yes, obvs, but I was referencing this
In April 2021 a motion was put forward by Gwynedd Councillor John Pughe Roberts for Snowdon to be called by its Welsh name Yr Wyddfa in all official use, and for Snowdonia to similarly be known only as Eryri.
Why not keep both rather than dropping one?
Cos one isn't Welsh and makes no sense?
I think it's great; no reason not to do it, many reasons to do it and they're only hoping that time will drive full acceptance of it.
Crack on and call it the Brecon Beacons if you want, but over time you might change.
No doubt Chevy will be along soon to blame angry nationalists.
More people are speaking Welsh in Wales,
Not actually true, and in SE Wales where I was born and live the figure is much lower. But there's a vocal Welsh speaking minority who think the speak for everyone Welsh person. At the end of the day
Bannau Brycheiniog or Brecon Beacons makes no difference to me the're the same mountains that I love to visit every chance I get.
A
Spose I'd better starting learning Welsh. In order to get along with the 17% in Wales who speak it.
As for climate change, alot coal came out of a South Wales and they are claiming a brazier is a menance and warrants a hugely expensive branding change.
Anyway gives Martin Sheen a mouthpiece for his rhetoric.
Each to a countries own.
You don't need to learn the language to learn how to pronounce words in the Welsh alphabet. Welsh pronounciation is quite regular, so if you understand the rules you have an excellent chance of pronouncing words correctly even if you dont know what they mean. I have never learnt to speak more than very basic Welsh, but I can pronounce names very well.
I guess they tried to come up with an English equivalent but thought the better of "Brychan's Knobs"...
Should all the mountains in Scotland have their English names or the Gaelic ones? the english translations are pretty dull. "Big mountain" "Red mountain" etc etc Oh - and even in the English names they often use Scots words - Paps of Jura would translate as Jura's Tits 🙂
I do struggle to pronouce the Gaelic names but thats on me. Thats the mountains name since the mapping was done
I have never learnt to speak more than very basic Welsh, but I can pronounce names very well.
You are doing better than me then. I live in an English village with a Welsh name and I still apparently cant pronounce it properly for the Welshys.
Not actually true, and in SE Wales where I was born and live the figure is much lower. But there’s a vocal Welsh speaking minority who think the speak for everyone Welsh person.
Sorry must be because I live on the edge of North/Mid Wales and it appears to be growing around here.
warrants a hugely expensive branding change.
They've always been known by the Welsh name, as like most things (see maps at every Welsh trail centre) in Wales all the promotional stuff is in both languages, They English name has been dropped to make the Welsh Name more prominent.
I don't see why folks have an issue with it, after all, if I say Cadair Idris, everyone knows which mountain I'm referring to, no one bemoans using that name and wonders what wrong with calling it Idris' Chair.
Paps of Jura would translate as Jura’s Tits
Haha, there's mountain range in USA called Grand Tetons. (Big Tits) Although they look nothing like tits,
The mountain Bod an Deamhain in the Cairngorms* literally translates as The demons (devils) penis but the mapmakers thought that was a bit racy so it's shown as The Devil's Point.
* Yeah, and the Cairngorms should really be called by their Gaelic name of Am Monadh Ruadh, as they're typically red, not blue (gorm).
Most/all places have names in the local language, and some of them have alternate names in other languages. Local references will use the local language. Try asking an Italian where Florence is.
We're pretty used to it, I'm sure everyone will cope.
In order to get along with the 17% in Wales who speak it.
I wonder what %age [i]only[/i] speak Welsh? (And are now going, "OOOH! I wondered where the Bannau Brycheiniog has got to!" (but in Welsh, obvs))
Why not keep both rather than dropping one?
Why keep both? Loads of places in Wales have only a Welsh name - most of them in fact. And places in England usually only have English names, and you never see Welsh names on English signposts. Places in England have Welsh names because they are in fact British names from before the Saxons came.
I wonder what %age only speak Welsh?
Doesn't matter. People from a linguistic heritage have a right to preserve it in the face of erasing by a dominant neighbour, don't they?
Should all the mountains in Scotland have their English names or the Gaelic ones? the english translations are pretty dull. “Big mountain” “Red mountain” etc etc
Translation or transliteration?
Most mountains are known by their anglicised names as it is, it's not English as such but it is a hell of a lot easier to pronounce if you don't know Gaelic. Oh, and FWIW a lot of that "Gaelic" is actually Pictish or Brittonic, just to make things more complicated.
That said...
Most/all places have names in the local language, and some of them have alternate names in other languages. Local references will use the local language. Try asking an Italian where Florence is.
I've never found Fiorenze, München, Köln or Warszawa particulalry difficult, maybe it's to do with language distance? Brittonic languages are pretty damn distant from English after all. Maybe a better compromise would be changing the anglicised names to reflect their proper counterparts and people can actually see how the language structure works as they go.
As a non-Welsh person I try to pronounce things correctly but always fall foul of the Welsh language schisms
If you got to Rhayader the enjoy the Elan Valley, the Northern people pronounce it very differently to the South and if you go to Ceridigion they've got another set of rules. It's really confusing!!
Most mountains are known by their Anglicised names as it is, it’s not English as such but it is a hell of a lot easier to pronounce if you don’t know Gaelic.
That's the approach I'd prefer to see for Wales. Use the Welsh name, but "sub-titled" with an approximate English pronunciation. That would actually be educational for us who don't speak Welsh.
That would actually be educational for us who don’t speak Welsh.
You don't have to speak Welsh to pronounce names properly. It's really very easy, a 10 minute job to read up which letters are different from English.
It's a 10 minute job most folk won't do whereas they would pick it up as they go along with my idea.
That’s the approach I’d prefer to see for Wales. Use the Welsh name, but “sub-titled” with an approximate English pronunciation. That would actually be educational for us who don’t speak Welsh.
Haha you got in before me whilst I was still editing.
Yeah, I think there are good practical reasons for going that way, not least being able to tell someone where you are going when going into the hills.
I think it's a lot of ink just to make English people feel comfortable 🙂
I'm all for it. Granted, it'll be a struggle and take some effort to learn correct pronunciations, but the English have had it very easy for a long time. We go abroad on the assumption that everyone will more or less speak English and we put very little effort into learning the local language, so maybe more change close to home will make us better global citizens.
(Yes, I know there's huge sweeping generalisations in the above - It's a personal reflection on how lazy I've been when travelling in the past)
I'm not even English 😂
For amusement shall we refer to “Bannau Brycheiniog” as the British name and “Brecon Beacons” as the name used by English immigrants to Britain.
Just to wind a few folk up 😉
Just look at how many different ways people pronounce Dyfi.
On a slightly more serious note. We had no end of problems getting a vehicle recovery recently as all the call centres were in England not Wales and couldnt understand the Welsh names even when we spelt them out.
We ended up using What Three Words.
Can you imagine the number of call outs to Snowdon in the future when the casualty will have died before someone understands that they are on Yr Wyddfa
It's OK, we can strike back and reclaim Pen Y Ghent, whatever the hell that means.
Anyone else worried about the preponderance of Norse-derived names in the Lakes? 🙂 Bloody Vikings, coming over here, naming our hills!
Dyfi is pronounced 'Duh-vee'
There are lots of ways of pronouncing it but only one correct way (which isn't tricky).
I heard an English chap refer to Betws y Coed as 'Betsy' the other day. That made me twitch and I'm an englishman living in a quite anglicised bit of Wales!
Apparently there is some debate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen-y-ghent
Also, the articles on the BB name change suggests the park authority also thought that the word 'beacon' wasn't very low-carbon because of its association with having a bonfire on top.
I'm hoping that Sugar Loaf Mountain will get an name upgrade to reflect the need for healthier lifestyles.
I’m all for it. Granted, it’ll be a struggle and take some effort to learn correct pronunciations, but the English have had it very easy for a long time. We go abroad on the assumption that everyone will more or less speak English and we put very little effort into learning the local language, so maybe more change close to home will make us better global citizens.
You see, this is a view I don't share. I love languages. I can generally do pretty well in German, English and French. In the past I have learned sufficient Turkish, Italian and Tzech to make myself understood as needed. I will totally make the effort to use local pronunciations when speaking the local language. And I fully support the idea that an agency based in Wales could use the Welsh names.
But when posting on an English language forum in the English language I don't understand why I wouldn't use English words.
I don’t understand why I wouldn’t use English words.
There's a difference between English words and English names for non-English places.
But mainly, you can call them the Beacons if you like, the story is simply about the Park Authority's own labelling.
I live in an English village with a Welsh name and I still apparently cant pronounce it properly for the Welshys.
From what I remember of where you live (I'm not stalking you! I just remember you posting previously) I grew up nearby (and still have family there) and there are a few Welsh named places that even local Welsh people don't agree on how to pronounce...
Can you imagine the number of call outs to Snowdon in the future when the casualty will have died before someone understands that they are on Yr Wyddfa
I personally credit the local mountain rescue teams with a bit more nouse.
Back to the OP:
Brychan Brycheiniog was born in the 5th century, John Leland referred to the "Banne Brekeniauc" in the 1530s and it was the Brecknock Beacons in the 1800s. The park has only been established since the 50s. The "old" name is merely a blip in long history.
I admit all this confuses me.
Is Brecon also being renamed (reverted to) Brecknock?
Do we still refer to the "Black Mountains", "Central Beacons", "Western Beacons"?
Have the mountain rescue team names changed?
Is anyone outside the North using Eryr instead of Snowdonia in everyday chat?